Non-Chansey teams

[Isa]

A few weeks ago I realized that even though I had Chansey on my team, I used it very infrequently and it often was my last Pokémon to be revealed. It didn't stop me from winning a lot of my battles, but Chansey as your last Pokémon used isn't really ideal. Instead of using it earlier I decided to just scrap Chansey altogether. I've tested two different teams on the ladder and had average results with them, so it's not super weak. In POCL I've used Chansey every time, but I've had Chansey saved for last frequently there as well.

I know Dre's not using Chansey on his Wrap-heavy team(s), but I have no intentions of using a Wrap team, so this is what I have.

Gengar (TBolt/NShade)
Tauros
Slowbro (Standard TWave/Surf)
Alakazam (Reflect)
Snorlax
Exeggutor (DEdge)


Alakazam (SToss)
Tauros
Snorlax
Exeggutor (DEdge)
Starmie (BlizzBoltWave)
Rhydon


DEdge on Exeggutor to hurt opposing Chanseys. BlizzBoltWave to paralyze things late game and to actually get any Ice/Electric attacks outside of Tauros Blizzard. The rest is pretty standard.

Slowbro because everything the opponent is usually banged up once he comes in, as everything on the team is hitting for some nice damage (Gengar possibly the exception, but he booms), but also to provide some reliable Thunder Waves.
Alakazam is on both teams because I need a Recover user. Starmie is backup but also gives me nice speed with Tauros/Zam/Starmie. Helps me a bit versus Lapras too, which is in theory a big issue for both teams, however so far I haven't faced any.
Gengar is on there because why not, but also because I want the boom to break up opposing annoyances.
The rest of the mons are standard.

Any thoughts on these teams or Chansey-less teams in general? Do you think they are just as good as teams that employ Chansey, or is it a must-have?

[jorgen]

I feel the same about Chansey tbh (in that it's often wasted space), but I find that when I stop using it Lapras gives me a ton of trouble. Lapras is a problem even for Chansey teams, but it's a HUGE issue for non-Chansey teams. That's why I like to have a fast Tbolter that isn't itself weak to boltbeam on my non-Chansey teams, which usually means packing Gengar.

Apart from that, I stick to ultra-standard SelfDestruct Snorlax pretty much all the time on a non-Chansey team so I can maybe trade with Lapras. Amnesia might work, but it requires that you have a turn available to set up.

Alakazam is pretty much mandatory on non-Chansey teams, too, otherwise you lose way too much on defense.

[cheese]

Chansey is by no means essential! I play without it every now and then with reasonable-good results.

Ditching Chansey shifts focus to the offensive. The main advantage of Chansey is that it can easily switch into lots of things, but unless Chansey gets a freeze (or uses Counter/Reflect/Sing to its advantage) it generally doesn't do much to help the overall cause other than paralysing (which other pokemon can do fine) and providing a go to switch in. Both very useful, and the relative unpredictability of Chansey is also an asset, but removing Chansey allows you to have so many more attacking options on a team.

Chansey is unique and great, but less essential in a team than Snorlax, or Eggy imo.

[SharKing]

I never really felt the need to add Chansey to my team. I generally prefer to take a more offensive approach, and for that, I find that Chansey tends to slow me down. Sure, it slows the opponent down as well (XD), but so many other Pokémon can do that just fine.

Just for reference, here's my team:

Gengar
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Hypnosis
- Explosion

Exeggutor
- Psychic
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore
- Explosion

Snorlax
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Blizzard
- Selfdestruct

Alakazam
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
- Reflect

Rhydon
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Body Slam
- Substitute

Tauros
- Body Slam
- Hyper Beam
- Earthquake
- Blizzard

[jorgen]

This is a bit off-topic, but you should probably run Surf > Blizzard on that Lax. Blizz barely does more damage than Body Slam to Exeggutor. (110-130 damage from Bslam, 115-136 from Blizzard). Surf will let you murder Rocks better.

Aside from that this non-Chansey team seems like pretty standard fare, although I can imagine opposing Exeggutor being very difficult to take down.

[Isa]

That team looks fine, but why Blizzard on Snorlax? Surf is better versus the Rocks and I'd rather use Body Slam versus Exeggutor - if nothing else, it keeps the lack of Hyper Beam hidden.
edit: Jorgen beat me to it.

Otherwise - yeah, you're forced to play more aggressive without Chansey but that's not really a bad thing, if you know how to pressure your foes.

Lapras and Starmie feels like the biggest threats to a non-Chansey team. I think Starmie can be handled by Alakazam, Starmie and Exeggutor in a combination depending on whether the Starmie lacks Surf/HPump, Blizzard or TBolt - and if it lacks Thunder Wave, unparalyzed Snorlax does fine and Alakazam can paralyze it. Lapras is different though as Blizzard/Thunderbolt hurts badly on everything. Gengar and Snorlax feels like the best ways to deal with it, Starmie is also good for making it tank paralysis in exchange for a Thunderbolt. With luck, you can then Recover-stall until FP and then deal damage on your own or make an appropriate switch.

[magic9mushroom]

Aug 23, 2013 8:00:26 GMT -8 Isa said:

Gengar (TBolt/NShade)
Tauros
Slowbro (Standard TWave/Surf)
Alakazam (Reflect)
Snorlax
Exeggutor (DEdge)

If you take sleep with Gar, you're in danger from Withdraw Slowbro (2 setup baits, no other Thunderbolts). I'd probably put Thunderbolt on Tauros just to be safe.


Oh, and while Double-Edge isn't bad on Egg by any means, I wouldn't use it against Chansey. Too much recoil.

[Isa]

Not really. Eggy blows up quicker with it, alright...but it's a 4HKO. Imagine this. Alakazam vs. Chansey, Chansey gets pressured and for some reason (to remove Spec drops, I switch in a Snorlax...) it switches out while at ~75% HP. If Chansey comes in on Egg (which is usually easy to predict) it takes over 25%. If one of the two DEdges happen to be a crit or Chansey FP's, Chansey dies. It also makes it incredibly easy to boom upon Chansey - upon seeing DEdge, with your paralyzed Chansey at 45%, do you go for Softboiled or switch out to something else?

[Dre]

I used chansey in the original version of my wrap team over jynx (obviously zam lead) and rhydon over lax, which was more defensive, whereas now its almost hyper offence for RBY's standards.

Non-chansey isn't that controversial, it's not like non-wrap tauros or lax where they need to be on every team. Chansey has almost no real offence and lets in the most dangerous mid-game pokemon almost for free, so I'd argue that more advanced team strats probably work better without it.

What I think is genuinely controversial is no chansey with no zam either. You'd need to stack physicals so that specials could never switch in, or run 3 hybrid psychic types and try to come in on resistances.

I feel like you can't run gengar on a non-chansey team because you need to mitigate how much you let specials in. Gengar lets in basically all special except water types. Zam can't take the chansey workload himself, and he's probably forced to run stoss if he does. This invites physicals in more, which defeats the purpose really because the main reason you have zam over chansey is to deter snorlax (and rocks, to an extent) from switching in.

I think for it to work in non-wrap you'd need to stack physical moves and possibly explosions to catch their specials, so I think Isa was on the right track there.

[lilith]

hum, i feel like chansey is one of the pokemon that you lose to random weird stuff all the time without

even if you save her for last in all your games, lots of people are still going to assume your 6th is chansey and that affects how they play - i think if people realize you have no chansey they'll start trying stuff they otherwise wouldn't which could be difficult to stop without chansey

like trying to set up a situation where starmie faces tauros and the winner goes on to sweep and pretty much any other sort of thing that encourages people playing normal teams to keep chansey alive to stop

[Dre]

I'm not sure I agree that people will assume your 6th is chansey because chansey is normally revealed pretty early. Most of the time I suspect it's a sweeper.

[Agent Syrup]

I recently stopped using Chansey because grew frustrated with how she centralizes the game. I now have a mostly physical team consisting of:
Tauros
Snorlax
Kangaskhan
Rhydon
Jynx
and Alakazam

So far I've been doing fairly well and I'm quite happy with how much less of a pain the opponents Chansey is. However I've yet to face some of the stronger players, so I still need to know how this team will work out.

[Isa]

It seems like physically bulky Pokémon (preferably attacking on the special side) would have their way with you. Articuno and Lapras seems like major issues, even more so if running Reflect+Rest. Granted, any team lacking Chansey will have some issues with a Lapras, but you can't handle Lapras at all with this team it feels like. A Blizzard/Body Slam/Reflect/Rest Lapras would beat you handily (if someone were to run it - it is a very rare set =p), but even without Rest or Reflect, Lapras is sure to take something down bar bad luck with Blizzard. My instant recommendation would be to use Starmie over Alakazam if you wish to keep the theme of heavy physical action without using Chansey - yes, you will lose to Thunderbolt Lapras which is common, but you get to use Thunder Wave on Lapras, and you can then come in with Snorlax on a Thunderbolt from Lapras, which deals very little damage. If it on the other hand is a variant without Thunderbolt, you can just bring it down with Thunderbolt yourself.

Moreover, Double-Edge Exeggutor seems to bring you some kind of issues (especially if your Zam gets slept), as well as opposing Golem/Rhydon since you don't have a great tank and nothing that wants to come in on Earthquake. The Eggy issue is OK as long as you keep Zam alive and you can always force it out with Jynx, but the physicals aren't too glad.

You'll fare very well against teams running the three recovery users though - just keep pressure up so much, opposing Zam doesn't get a chance to use Reflect.

Also beware of Counter Chansey, especially the ones with Thunder Wave over Thunderbolt (which is to say, the most of them).

What do you do versus Gengar leads, assuming you lead Jynx and not Tauros?

What's your Kangaskhan set, out of curiosity? Body Slam/HBeam/EQ/Counter?

[magic9mushroom]

Dec 14, 2013 13:36:31 GMT -8 Agent Syrup said:

I recently stopped using Chansey because grew frustrated with how she centralizes the game. I now have a mostly physical team consisting of:
Tauros
Snorlax
Kangaskhan
Rhydon
Jynx
and Alakazam

So far I've been doing fairly well and I'm quite happy with how much less of a pain the opponents Chansey is. However I've yet to face some of the stronger players, so I still need to know how this team will work out.

I hope you have Thunderbolt on Tauros. You only have 1 Exploder, so +Def Slowbro otherwise walls your team.

Isa's right that you need Starmie, but I'd stick it over Kangaskhan and not Zam. A team with no Zam and no Chansey is sad when faced with Starmie.

[Isa]

I I didn't replace the Kangaskhan because I wanted to retain the theme of the team.

[magic9mushroom]

Dec 29, 2013 8:23:28 GMT -8 Isa said:

I I didn't replace the Kangaskhan because I wanted to retain the theme of the team.

Maybe use Swords Dance Victreebel as a sleeper instead of Jynx, then? That would at least patch the Slowbro weakness while keeping to the theme of physical attackers.

[marcoasd]

I like Kangaskhan in UU, but I think Persian is better there: speed ties Starmie, thunderbolt with high CH rate for Slowbro... it suffers Gengar, and also a Jynx lead does, so I think Starmie has a place there as the lead.

Egg is another piece I'd like to have, good vs Slowbro and can use spore if Zam is the only twave user in the team.

Jynx can rest and beat Chansey, but you need to take out their physicals before, so it's difficult... maybe as a sleep bait, with Egg as a backup.

If you don't counter their rock with Egg, and somehow trade a piece (mostly Snorlax) with the rock , Zapdos can be good, covering the 3 waters, Articuno, and using thunder wave.

I tried Starmie/Zam/Egg/Tauros/Snorlax/Persian for a while and it was good. I only struggled with Zapdos, but most of the time Snorlax got the job done.
With Golem in Persian's place i struggled with Slowbro.

Starmie/Zam/Egg/Tauros/Snorlax/Zapdos has been the non-Chansey team I felt more comfortable with.

[jorgen]

I like Marco's changes to that team, but I'd probably go with Rhydon > Persian. Shores you up better against Lax and Elecs, and is more of a Physical bruiser to back up Snorlax quite nicely. Persian, on the other hand, offers nothing defensively and is more of a revenge killer/cleaner on offense, something that 2.5 of your mons can already do: Tauros, Starmie, and Alakazam (sort of). Then again, I'm a bit of a fuddy-duddy when it comes to using non-standard mons (although I like to think no Chansey is breaking out at least slightly).

The trick to avoiding Bro problems is to use Thunderbolt on Starmie instead of that non-Tbolt lead set. Just lead Zam imo.

[magic9mushroom]

Dec 30, 2013 17:33:51 GMT -8 jorgen said:

The trick to avoiding Bro problems is to use Thunderbolt on Starmie instead of that non-Tbolt lead set. Just lead Zam imo.

Just so we're clear, I said that the Tauros/Lax/Kanga/Egg/Jynx/Zam team would have Bro problems. Not any of the variations with Starmie in them.

(Also, I'm 100% in agreement with Thunderbolt being awesome on Starmie in most cases. Only reason I don't use it myself is because Withdraw Slowbro cockblocks TobyBro anyway - otherwise there's no way I'd drop Tbolt.)

[jorgen]

Yeah, I know, I was more responding to marco's reported problems with Slowbro when using Golem > Persian, which having Rhydon > Persian is very close to. He had mentioned leading Starmie as an improvement and I assumed he was using that Blizz/Psychic/Twave/Recover lead set, hence the Bro problems.

[magic9mushroom]

Dec 31, 2013 7:20:40 GMT -8 jorgen said:

Yeah, I know, I was more responding to marco's reported problems with Slowbro when using Golem > Persian, which having Rhydon > Persian is very close to. He had mentioned leading Starmie as an improvement and I assumed he was using that Blizz/Psychic/Twave/Recover lead set, hence the Bro problems.

Lead Starmie's fourth move is mostly for later use if it survives the lead game intact (ie, if you run into lead Zam and switch it out, or if it succeeds in killing Gengar/Exeggutor and avoiding sleep entirely). Tbolt stops Slowbro; Twave helps against Tauros. Generally I'd go with Tbolt, since it improves the matchup with Slowbro far, far more than Twave improves Starmie's chances against Tauros.

[marcoasd]

Dec 31, 2013 18:56:06 GMT -8 magic9mushroom said:

Lead Starmie's fourth move is mostly for later use if it survives the lead game intact (ie, if you run into lead Zam and switch it out, or if it succeeds in killing Gengar/Exeggutor and avoiding sleep entirely). Tbolt stops Slowbro; Twave helps against Tauros. Generally I'd go with Tbolt, since it improves the matchup with Slowbro far, far more than Twave improves Starmie's chances against Tauros.

The fact is that if you lead with Starmie you can't always rely on it against Slowbro, since the opponent will often take that twave on Jynx and put Starmie to sleep.

I'd use other things for Slowbro in that case, while taking a closer look at non-lead Starmie, it's very difficult to figure out the best moveset, as Psychic and Blizzard cover only one pokemon each (Gengar and Egg).
Sometimes I feel like surf/Tbolt/Twave/recover could work well as a surprise. Of course Chansey has to be taken out before using. The faster way to take out Egg is baiting it into explosion, but in any case I see it switching out (maybe to Zam) unless you have already shown the 3 moves.
Dropping Blizzard, Starmie is able to own Tauros, finish Snorlax, OHKO rocks, keep Slowbro in check and fight Zam and jynx well, hit Lapras and other Starmie- while Twave on Dragonite, Egg and Gengar is still good.

[magic9mushroom]

Jan 1, 2014 3:57:44 GMT -8 marcoasd said:

The fact is that if you lead with Starmie you can't always rely on it against Slowbro, since the opponent will often take that twave on Jynx and put Starmie to sleep.

Sure, you can't rely on it, but it's nice to have.

I'd use other things for Slowbro in that case, while taking a closer look at non-lead Starmie, it's very difficult to figure out the best moveset, as Psychic and Blizzard cover only one pokemon each (Gengar and Egg).

Those may be the things they specifically are required to cover, but they cover an awful lot more. I mean, I could equally say that Tbolt only covers two Pokemon (Starmie itself and Slowbro) and that Surf only covers one (Jynx). Those are the only things that specifically require those attacking types to hit, just as Gengar and Egg are the only things that specifically require Psychic and Ice attacks.

Blizzard covers Exeggutor, Dragonite and Zapdos impeccably while covering Golem/Rhydon quite well.
Psychic covers Gengar, Snorlax, and Tauros impeccably while covering Lapras and Cloyster quite well. It's also Starmie's best shot at actually beating Zam and its only shot at beating Chansey besides a freeze.

(Technically speaking Psychic and Hydro Pump are about even vs. Tauros/Lax/Zam but they're both better than Surf in each case.)

[marcoasd]

Jan 1, 2014 14:42:28 GMT -8 magic9mushroom said:

Those may be the things they specifically are required to cover, but they cover an awful lot more. I mean, I could equally say that Tbolt only covers two Pokemon (Starmie itself and Slowbro) and that Surf only covers one (Jynx). Those are the only things that specifically require those attacking types to hit, just as Gengar and Egg are the only things that specifically require Psychic and Ice attacks.

Blizzard covers Exeggutor, Dragonite and Zapdos impeccably while covering Golem/Rhydon quite well.
Psychic covers Gengar, Snorlax, and Tauros impeccably while covering Lapras and Cloyster quite well. It's also Starmie's best shot at actually beating Zam and its only shot at beating Chansey besides a freeze.

(Technically speaking Psychic and Hydro Pump are about even vs. Tauros/Lax/Zam but they're both better than Surf in each case.)

Tbolt is also for Lapras, and is needed for that 3 cases. Surf covers Jynx, Zam and rocks, cause OHKO is always way better than 2HKO, risk a miss, against a rock with sub- expecially if Starmie is paralyzed. Surf is also for not giving Golem the chance to explode in your face, and it can be useful.
Against Dnite Blizzard is 2HKO (and can miss), so I always use Twave first. Zapdos is still tough, not to mention Jolteon.

Hydro pump sucks due to accuracy, even if it's 2HKO on Tauros. Vs Snorlax you want to avoid the boom, and the best way is prediction or "luck"- FPs, or CHs, that combine for almost 50%.
With non stabbed moves the damage is very slow against both. Psychic is good, but then you lack something against Jynx/Zam/rocks.
This kind of Starmie would use Psychic over Tbolt, as Psychic is still decent vs Lapras and Starmie vs Starmie is a coinflip even with Tbolt.

True, Gengar is a pain in the ass for the moveset I try to support, and I liked Psychic against Chansey, but believe me, surf gives you the best chances vs Zam, as it will recover a lot, and your CHs ruin it. Also, there are good chances to finish Zam without taking a hit (Twave) if you create a decent scenario.
My main point is that blizzard is overrated, and surf over blizzard makes Starmie a real sweeper against the most common opponents, once Egg and Chansey have been taken out with team work.

[magic9mushroom]

Jan 2, 2014 3:37:47 GMT -8 marcoasd said:

Tbolt is also for Lapras,

Possible 3HKO vs. possible 4HKO that can specfall. Thunderbolt isn't that much better than Psychic vs. Lapras.

Surf covers Jynx, Zam and rocks, cause OHKO is always way better than 2HKO, risk a miss, against a rock with sub- expecially if Starmie is paralyzed. Surf is also for not giving Golem the chance to explode in your face, and it can be useful.

Yes, Surf is better than Blizzard against Rocks. But Blizzard still covers them well.

I'm trying to point out to you that you're running a double standard here, dismissing most of Blizzard's and Psychic's benefits while counting every little advantage of Surf and Tbolt.

Against Dnite Blizzard is 2HKO

Actually, it can OHKO without a crit (90-107%). Do your damage calcs. In any case, the point is that Blizzard's by far Starmie's best way to kill Dnite (sure, you Twave first, but you've still gotta kill the thing).

Zapdos is still tough, not to mention Jolteon.

Of course they are. But Blizzard's the main thing stopping Zapdos from switching freely into Starmie. Abandon that defence at your peril.

but believe me, surf gives you the best chances vs Zam, as it will recover a lot, and your CHs ruin it. Also, there are good chances to finish Zam without taking a hit (Twave) if you create a decent scenario.

Crap. Surf's only a 4HKO on Zam and Zam's faster; while Surf does a lot more damage than Psychic and a bit more than Blizzard, it's still not enough to actually beat Zam. Psychic allows you to fight back at Zam's own game, while Hydro Pump's 3HKO allows an easier kill.

(and as far as "finishing Zam without taking a hit"... last I heard, frozen Pokemon aren't very good at Thunder Waving stuff.)

[marcoasd]

I see I've messed up with damage calcs, but still, surf's advantages are more relevant for a sweeping Starmie. I mean, you look at Starmie as a thing that should be able to hit everything well, while I look at it as a thing that should be able to hit hard the things it will face more often. It will go against paralyzed Zams, etc... so, I'm not going to take the paralysis and stall for the freeze. We can argue about hydro pump (I don't like the 80%), make it Hpump/Tbolt/Twave if you prefer.
Zapdos will switch into a predicted non-blizzard move, or when something dies. And vs Dnite I'd just use Twave and switch.

[marcoasd]

I'm trying a non-Chansey team, that will be also into the guide I'm finishing to write.

Starmie: Thunder Wave,Psychic,Blizzard,Recover
Exeggutor: Sleep Powder,Stun Spore, Psychic, Explosion
Snorlax: Body Slam,Earthquake,Hyper Beam, Selfdestruct
Golem:Earthquake,Body Slam, Substitute, Explosion
Lapras: Blizzard, Thunderbolt,Confuse Ray, Sing
Tauros: asd

A physical team without Chansey, that won’t care about stalling. Obviously, the most dangerous pokemons are Lapras and Starmie; Lapras is matched by your own Lapras and maybe Starmie, while Snorlax will take care of Starmie: his paraslams are the most needed thing for this team. Egg ( or Starmie) will face Alakazam and Exeggutor, so it needs Stun Spore, and Golem can use Substitute once Starmie is paralyzed (and Egg is gone).
Egg is meant to be the sleep bait, and hope to wake up.
If the opponent Leads with Jynx, Starmie will risk to take the sleep.
Lapras can face Chansey and cowardly put it to sleep.
The team is obviously unbalanced and offensive, the only thing to take special attacks better without losing physical attackers is using Snorlax with Amnesia/Body Slam/Earthquake/ Rest or Selfdestruct as a surprise.
Mainly, you rely on the fact that your opponent can’t read your moves and strategy, because the team works in a strange way.

[Isa]

Looks interesting. How do you deal with Slowbro though? Boom at it until it dies? You only have one Thunderbolt and it isn't particularly strong nor fast.
You also need to be careful to not let Lapras get paralyzed, or another Lapras with Rest might run it over. Lead Starmie is likely to be asleep or paralyzed, so I don't see that working as a check.

[jorgen]

Apr 3, 2014 13:42:56 GMT -8 Isa said:

Looks interesting. How do you deal with Slowbro though? Boom at it until it dies? You only have one Thunderbolt and it isn't particularly strong nor fast.

Slowbro's no more a problem for his team than for any given standard team, really. Booming until it dies (or rather, until it can no longer take another hit) is a pretty common way to deal with it.

As you mentioned later in your post, Lapras is the real bugger, but that's the case for any non-Chansey team (which is weird, considering how one of Lapras' biggest selling points is actually being able to beat Chansey). Even then, though, he could shoot to nail it with Snorlax SD, which I find to be a pretty common goal for my own non-Chansey teams vs. Lapras.

[marcoasd]

Lapras works well against Slowbro, even if often it will be paralyzed. I don't see my opponent using 2 waters.
Lapras and Starmie are undeniably difficult, but that's normal for a non-Chansey team. I don't want to replace Chansey with Alakazam as it wouldn't make sense; I don't think using an electric will work, as it would be walled. The only thing that comes to mind is Victreebel, but I need to paralyze Starmie. ATM I'd just use Starmie, Lapras and Snorlax.
Snorlax is better vs Starmie than Lapras, but Lapras will stay in and be boomed on. Snorlax and Golem will explode aggressively, obviously this team has to take risks.
If Lapras is hit hard by Snorlax, and maybe paralyzed, I can switch out Snorlax (and save it to explode later), and use some switch to cause parafusion and/or switching in Golem predicting Thunderbolt.

I'm the one using two waters!
I hope to take out Chansey (or sleep it), or cause permanent damage on other things like their Lapras, and then KO things... I mean, is the other player that has to find a way to stop this team, not vice versa, lol.