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Post by magic9mushroom on Dec 29, 2013 2:10:09 GMT -8
In this thread, you post a RBY Pokemon, and one move it longs for but doesn't have. Posting a full set and explaining why that move would be spectacular on that Pokemon is encouraged.
The following moves are excluded from this thread: Amnesia, Spore/Sleep Powder/Lovely Kiss, Recover/Softboiled, Slash, Crabhammer. Every Pokemon wants those moves.
I'll start off with a really obvious case: Surf Zapdos.
Zapdos
- Thunderbolt
- Drill Peck
- Surf
- Thunder Wave
AKA: Screw you, Rhydon!
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Post by jorgen on Dec 29, 2013 7:07:13 GMT -8
Exeggutor would appreciate Razor Leaf quite a bit. I don't recall his actual crit rate with it, but it should be pretty good, and it pounds all the things (except other Eggs) that normally tank it. Jynx, Starmie, Lapras, even paralyzed Alakazam don't want to switch in on an Egg Razor Leaf.
Starmie, Lapras, Jolteon, and even your beloved Zapdos (and pretty much every special attacker ever) would all love to spontaneously get Hi Jump Kick for the ultimate screw you to Chansey.
You know all those viable off-beat mons that get cockblocked by Gengar? You know, Persian, Victreebel, Kingler (to an extent), Gyarados (to an extent), Dragonite? They'd sure love to have EQ in their movepools. They might not necessarily use it (well Persian definitely would), but it would at least keep Gengar on its toes.
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Dec 29, 2013 8:33:51 GMT -8
My instant thought was Rock Slide Aerodactyl.  Otherwise I would would have liked to see Ice Beam on Gengar. Pin Missile and Drill Peck for Scyther?? |
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Post by marcoasd on Dec 29, 2013 9:02:54 GMT -8
Zapdos - Thunderbolt - Drill Peck - Surf - Thunder Wave Or just aim at the horn. Dodrio needs surf as well. Also, I'd exclude twave and explosion(self d) as well from that discussion. And maybe ice beam. Zam with ice beam, but reflect is good too. Egg is arguabily the most improvable pokemon with its great stats: it would love of course razor leaf, but also body slam over double-edge... but IMHO most of all, counter would be just great making it a good hyper beam absorber (Tauros won't KO it often even with a CH, and would counter for OHKO due having higher health than Tauros). Even if Snorlax can do the same thing (and that's nice), then it's more difficult to find an opening to explode later due to low speed- and also, I'd give it a different role. A Snorlax outspeeding everything would be a beast, but with one agility it reaches only 316 (still 2 less than Tauros and Gengar)... Lapras is fine with its set, but would like counter as well, with its high HP. Lapras would like light screen too, to fight chansey better, but even if it's an option, i see it fail mainly to thunder wave, and then to CHs. Basically, this set would give you the better chances against Zam/chansey, and you have to use body slam instead of thunderbolt against Starmie and Lapras: hope they won't crit. Zapdos would have an harder time too to switch in. Light screen, confuse ray, blizzard, body slam. I say there's no room for rest even if Lapras has basically just two moves to look out for: rock slide and razor leaf. Articuno with drill peck hehehe For UU, Dewgong with thunderbolt would be great bolting Vaporeon, and best Articuno counter. And while Pinsir, Gengar and Dnite still lack a stabbed move... c'mon, at least let Aerodactyl learn rock slide! |
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Post by Agent Syrup on Dec 29, 2013 10:04:28 GMT -8
Mewtwo:
Amnesia
Recover
Splash
Psychic
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Post by cheese on Dec 29, 2013 11:02:48 GMT -8
There's so many that spring to mind! How about: DugtrioSwords Dance Earthquake Body Slam Rock Slide/Hyper Beam After a Swords Dance Duggy makes a reasonable sweeper. Swords Dance Tauros and Lax would be total boss, but I think they're good enough already! MachampHi Jump Kick Body Slam Hyper Beam Earthquake Hi Jump Kick can (with a bit of luck) OHKO Chansey, and Body Slam will stop something like Zam or Starmie risking switching in too often. HitmonleePin Missile Hi Jump Kick Body Slam Counter Pin Missile would be great on Lee (or Machamp actually). A CH can potentially OHKO Zam, Jynx or Eggy thanks for the stellar attack, making switching in difficult unless you have a Slowbro or Starmie. I'm sure Drill Peck would improve many pokemon (Dragonite, Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Articuno...) I know we're only including RBY moves, but Pinsir with Mega Horn anyone? |
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Post by magic9mushroom on Dec 29, 2013 18:23:01 GMT -8
Also, I'd exclude twave and explosion(self d) as well from that discussion. And maybe ice beam. I was debating excluding Explosion, but there's quite a few mons for which it's not useful (for instance, Explosion Zapdos wouldn't accomplish much, and Chansey's STAB Explosion would still be laughably weak). Thunder Wave's certainly a great move, but lots of mons have better things to do with their moveslots - would you really put Thunder Wave on Tauros or Snorlax? The moves I excluded, I excluded because everything under the sun wants them. Amnesia's god-tier on anything with special STAB and half the things without it, accurate sleep moves are an automatic entry on things that get them, anything with decent stats would kill for Recover, Slash is the strongest physical move of anything without STAB Earthquake, and Crabhammer is the strongest special move of anything without STAB Blizzard or STAB Fire Blast. |
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Post by jorgen on Dec 29, 2013 19:13:27 GMT -8
I dunno about swords dance duggy. He intends to crit a bunch anyway, so SD can kinda be a waste of a turn, especially as he has no bulk with which to set up. I'd say Twineedle to spank Egg a bit harder is what he craves (and even then he wouldn't be great). Or pin missile, that could actually OHKO with a crit + 5 hits, although the former is wayyy more reliable.
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Post by marcoasd on Dec 30, 2013 1:53:49 GMT -8
I was debating excluding Explosion, but there's quite a few mons for which it's not useful (for instance, Explosion Zapdos wouldn't accomplish much, and Chansey's STAB Explosion would still be laughably weak). Thunder Wave's certainly a great move, but lots of mons have better things to do with their moveslots - would you really put Thunder Wave on Tauros or Snorlax? The moves I excluded, I excluded because everything under the sun wants them. Amnesia's god-tier on anything with special STAB and half the things without it, accurate sleep moves are an automatic entry on things that get them, anything with decent stats would kill for Recover, Slash is the strongest physical move of anything without STAB Earthquake, and Crabhammer is the strongest special move of anything without STAB Blizzard or STAB Fire Blast. Of course, stallers would not use explosion, but sweepers would. Most of them would have problems with the 4 slots, but notice that the standard movesets always include explosion when it's available (even Gengar!) So, you would find a way to make room for it... Zapdos can drop twave for explosion. If it's not the standard, at least, it's an option. Twave is for specialists, but you're right there, since the best pokemon at twaving already have it. Sweepers don't want it, Egg would maybe prefer stun spore to hit a rock through a substitute (but I'm not sure), Jynx and Gengar are arguable. I see your standars of "must use" move, and I'd say that twave is not, while explosion (almost always) is... expecially with rocks losing power due to Zapdos gaining surf. |
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Post by magic9mushroom on Dec 30, 2013 3:04:28 GMT -8
Of course, stallers would not use explosion, but sweepers would. Most of them would have problems with the 4 slots, but notice that the standard movesets always include explosion when it's available (even Gengar!) So, you would find a way to make room for it... Zapdos can drop twave for explosion. If it's not the standard, at least, it's an option. I'm of the opinion that Explosion isn't very useful unless a 'mon can stop the Normal-resists from coming in (this is why I'm such a big fan of Mega Drain on Gengar). Exploding with Zapdos would just hit Gol/Don anyway, so it doesn't really long for the move. I agree. Like I said, it's a great move, and some Pokemon certainly do long for it (Cloyster immediately springs to mind), but it's not a move that single-handedly makes otherwise-bad Pokemon OU like Slash (for Persian) and Amnesia (for Slowbro). 1. These are supposed to be independent "what-if" scenarios. 2. Eh, I guess? It's just that I occasionally see Electrodes on Showdown and I always think to myself, "God, Electrode's Explosion does it no good. Don't they realise it's only going to hit Rhydon anyway?" |
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Post by marcoasd on Dec 30, 2013 4:37:53 GMT -8
I'm of the opinion that Explosion isn't very useful unless a 'mon can stop the Normal-resists from coming in (this is why I'm such a big fan of Mega Drain on Gengar). Exploding with Zapdos would just hit Gol/Don anyway, so it doesn't really long for the move. Eh, I guess? It's just that I occasionally see Electrodes on Showdown and I always think to myself, "God, Electrode's Explosion does it no good. Don't they realise it's only going to hit Rhydon anyway?" I supposed Zapdos with thunderbolt, drill peck, surf and explosion. In any case, twave would hit Gol/Don anyway... so, don't use Zapdos cause it's hard countered, don't use Starmie cause you only rely on that 10% freeze vs chansey... You hope to take out their rock at some point, and then you can argue about explosion or twave. You can't bring Electrode into that discussion... it's just bad for both the typing and the stats (and actually it has explosion). Things like Arcanine, Gyarados, Charizard, Nidoking, Dugtrio, Kangaskhan, Clefable, Dnite and almost everything would auto-include that. They would still be unable to absorb explosions and hbeams like rocks, or to compete with Tauros as sweepers in OU, but at least, those would become risky to counter (you normally laugh at fire types) while having also other good traits (stabbed moves and coverage, things that Muk and Weezing lack). I can see sometimes one of those making an appearance into a team, and that's a big improvement for an UU. |
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Post by jorgen on Dec 30, 2013 17:39:23 GMT -8
Well one thing I'm sure we can all agree on is that Rhydon certainly wishes he had Explosion just to settle the damn "debate" once and for all. Who cares if Golem is slightly faster and wins the rare 1-on-1, Exploding Rhydon still gets all the babes.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Dec 30, 2013 20:28:31 GMT -8
Well one thing I'm sure we can all agree on is that Rhydon certainly wishes he had Explosion just to settle the damn "debate" once and for all. Who cares if Golem is slightly faster and wins the rare 1-on-1, Exploding Rhydon still gets all the babes. Yup. Tauros is another big one that would love Explosion. |
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Post by longfellow on Jan 3, 2014 14:47:13 GMT -8
I usually lurk but I was thinking about this topic this afternoon and came up with a few crazy ideas. Y'all will probably know how they fit into competitive RBY better than I do, but here goes.
Chansey
Transform
Ice Beam
Softboiled
Thunder Wave/Bolt
Need I explain? Chansey would now both win the stall war against Zam and scare physical attackers from switching in. Tauros is formidable, but a 700 HP Tauros with another Tauros in the wings is ridiculous. The Chansey vs. Chansey stalemates would probably break the game though.
Starmie
Conversion
Tri Attack/Double-Edge/Hyper Beam
Recover
Thunder Wave/Blizzard/Surf/Hydro Pump/Hyper Beam/Reflect/Light Screen
I haven't done calcs, but I imagine Starmie could beat Chansey with its new STAB Normal moves.
Conversion could go on other Pokémon too (I'm thinking Rhydon/Golem or Exeggutor?).
Starmie
Clamp
Blizzard
Recover
Thunder Wave/Thunderbolt
Another cheeky way to get by Chansey? Even if it can't, this set would be a pain in the ass to everybody else. (On that note, what about Persian with Wrap?)
Moltres
Razor Leaf
Fire Blast
Fire Spin
Agility
Or maybe give it to Arcanine/Ninetales to lose the Ice/Electric weaknesses or to Charizard for better coverage. I dunno, could this finally make Fire-types relevant?
Growth Zam/Chansey and Super Fang Zam/Chansey/Eggy/etc. are also worth a look IMO.
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Post by jorgen on Jan 3, 2014 20:01:42 GMT -8
Transform Chansey would be absolutely insane. The last few moves would probably be Softboiled, Defense Curl, and Ice Beam. Soft for healing, Ice Beam for freezing other Chanseys, and Defense Curl for PP stalling. If it could get Ice Punch on top of that, it'd probably prefer that over Ice Beam for the extra PP.
Conversion Starmie seems interesting, but ultimately impractical. It has 4-moveslot syndrome as it is, there's no way it devotes two whole moveslots to KO Chansey. It's better off just running Hyper Beam without a STAB to get a surprise KO when Chansey is weakened.
Clamp Starmie would just be evil.
Moltres with Razor Leaf would be nice, and way better than its current form, but I still don't see it rocketing up too far in power. It still has a poor defensive typing, mediocre Speed, and struggles with Chansey and Alakazam, although no longer being totally walled by Starmie obviously helps a lot.
Growth I feel is almost cheating with the Amnesia ban. Random Super Fangs are also kind of in the vein of "moves that basically everything would love if they had it".
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Post by cheese on Jan 4, 2014 4:32:02 GMT -8
Does Transform copy the CH ratio of a pokemon?
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Post by magic9mushroom on Jan 4, 2014 16:57:22 GMT -8
Growth I feel is almost cheating with the Amnesia ban. Random Super Fangs are also kind of in the vein of "moves that basically everything would love if they had it". Well, Growth isn't nearly AS good as Amnesia. Growth's an awesome move, but it's not significantly better than, say, Swords Dance. |
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Post by Dre on Jan 29, 2014 16:52:45 GMT -8
Hi Jump Kick on every fighting type.
Amnesia on every special attacker.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Jan 30, 2014 2:49:27 GMT -8
Amnesia on every special attacker. RTFOP I specifically barred Amnesia. |
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Post by Crystal_ on Feb 3, 2014 15:17:01 GMT -8
can't believe explosion snorlax hasn't been mentioned considering how straightforward it is...
hi jump kick thunderbolt articuno would be boss
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Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 13, 2014 16:48:33 GMT -8
Hmm. Would Sludge be good on Swords Dance Victreebel? It doesn't really care about the "you have poisoned Starmie, game over" problem or Goldon's 4x resistance thanks to Razor Leaf, and it absolutely murders Exeggutor. Body Slam and Hyper Beam are probably still better though.  |
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Post by Dre on Feb 13, 2014 21:06:39 GMT -8
It's not much stronger than bslam, which has the para chance. You can just wrap egg until it's in range of bslam (or hyper beam if you use it, which I don't think is a good idea) because who uses bel in non-wrap.
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Post by jorgen on Feb 13, 2014 23:24:42 GMT -8
Between Sleep Powder/Razor Leaf/Swords Dance/Hyper Beam there's no room for Acid, let alone Wrap or Body Slam, on SD Victreebel.
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Isa
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FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Feb 14, 2014 4:30:24 GMT -8
Hyper Beam > Earthquake > Sludge on Vic IMO. I don't think Victreebel can get a significantly better moveset than the one he has already except by maybe adding EQ, but even then, eeh.
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Post by jorgen on Feb 14, 2014 9:14:42 GMT -8
Yeah, at the end of the day, it is Victreebel. A good movepool can only do so much to redeem a poor typing and mediocre stats, especially as you can only pick 4 of those moves.
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Post by Dre on Feb 15, 2014 0:42:13 GMT -8
Sleep powder-wrap-rleaf is what makes bel unique and have a niche in OU. For me it's just a case of what to run in the last slot. I find stun spore to be the best option because combined with wrap it gives it a shot at beating anything except gengar, or at least giving something else a safe switch-in. The damaging moves like bslam and hbeam simply achieve what wrap and rleaf do in fewer turns. That's not as important when you can have the option of taking more turns without taking damage in the process.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 15, 2014 3:58:40 GMT -8
I don't think Victreebel can get a significantly better moveset than the one he has already except by maybe adding EQ, but even then, eeh. Yeah, Victreebel has a fantastic movepool. |
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Post by SharKing on Feb 15, 2014 9:38:22 GMT -8
If Victreebel only really has one improvable moveslot, as Dre says, then Thunder Wave seems like a fantastic replacement to Stun Spore, due to its much better accuracy. Razor Leaf already demolishes Ground-types in at least two hits anyway, so yeah.
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Post by jorgen on Mar 3, 2014 19:27:11 GMT -8
OH I just realized
Articuno longs for Light Screen to fight Chanseys and maybe even stall out Lapras (!)
Okay stalling Lapras is a bit of a pipe dream but still, light screen would be super handy, much better than Reflect since it already screws Physicals anyway.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 3, 2014 23:15:19 GMT -8
OH I just realized Articuno longs for Light Screen to fight Chanseys and maybe even stall out Lapras (!) Okay stalling Lapras is a bit of a pipe dream but still, light screen would be super handy, much better than Reflect since it already screws Physicals anyway. Still think Thunderbolt or Drill Peck would be better. |
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