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Post by cheese on Apr 3, 2014 3:16:26 GMT -8
I can't see any evidence that this has been done recently, so I thought I'd open it up again.
Simply put, rate the pokemon in RBY OU format by how good they are. I'll also try to create an average based on people's answers once I have a few in.
My opinion:
1) Tauros
2) Snorlax
3) Exeggutor
4) Chansey
5) Alakazam
6) Lapras
7) Starmie
8) Gengar
9) Zapdos
10) Rhydon
11) Golem
12) Slowbro
13) Jynx
14) Persian
15) Jolteon
16) Articuno
Note standard rules: wrap banned. If you want to include wrappers please make it clear.
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Isa
Member
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Post by Isa on Apr 3, 2014 3:30:10 GMT -8
In a non-wrap metagame:
1/2. Tauros/Exeggutor (Tauros is best at what he does but Egg is amazing team glue and jack of all trades)
3. Snorlax
4. Chansey
5. Alakazam
6. Starmie
7. Lapras
8. Rhydon
9. Golem
10. Zapdos
11. Gengar
12. Slowbro
13. Jynx
14. Jolteon
15. Persian
16. Articuno
17. Hypno/Cloyster
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Post by jorgen on Apr 3, 2014 4:57:07 GMT -8
Okay I will make a list
01. Tauros -
High performance spread, but extremely high ceiling.
02. Snorlax -
More consistent and versatile, but can't just destroy half a team in 3 turns the way Tauros can.
03. Chansey -
The game revolves around breaking this thing. Can be a liability at times but it can usually punish physicals pretty well.
04. Exeggutor -
Safest sleeper. Period. Also holds teams together against Goldon. One of the "mandatory four". Can be a liability against some attackers, though.
05. Alakazam -
Safest sleep absorber. Alakazam is a great utility mon. If only it could actually take a Physical attack, it might be mandatory.
06. Lapras -
Dangerous attacker. STAB Blizzards hurt, and parafusion antics destroy Chansey. Or it can stall. A great Snorlax check.
07. Starmie - Under Lapras because it's just sooooo passive and suffers from massive 4mss. Otherwise it's hard to put it lower because it gets Recover and matches up well against Tauros, an amazing combination.
08. Rhydon -
Stronger Rock. Tanks Snorlax, which is everywhere, and provides Electric insurance. Hits like a truck.
09. Golem -
He Explodes, but his weaker Attack is so noticeable in so many places otherwise.
10. Slowbro -
Often seen as a noob mon, but let's be real: Slowbro's a monster. Can be awkward to use if things don't quite go your way, but it's rarely outright useless (unless you aren't packing Twave, that is).
11. Zapdos -
No Rocks would put it higher, but even with them it's an absolute monster. Too bad Rhydon is a little more popular than Golem at the moment, otherwise it could just wait for the boom.
12. Jynx -
Amazing sleeper lead and attacker. Also walls Egg for what it's worth. Can easily go 2-for-1 in the opening turns, but after that, it tends to just become fodder.
13. Gengar -
High-risk, medium (if not low)-reward as a sleeper lead. Ghost typing and Explosion are great, though, and I've been wanting to build a team that manages to use it as a nonlead for some time now.
14. Hypno -
A safe sleeper lead that pretends to be a poor man's Alakazam otherwise. He's pretty cool, though, and can actually tank a Physical hit, which can come in handy.
15. Articuno -
BLIZZARD. Walled pretty easily, especially by Lapras, but otherwise it's a huge pain.
16. Jolteon -
Crit machines are always nice, but Jolteon is walled a little too easily and is a little too frail to keep up with the big boys on a consistent basis.
17. Kingler -
Can you tell I like this? Crabhammer makes it a good 1-on-1 matchup versus Physicals, and Swords Dance Hyper Beams are beautiful, Chansey-OHKOing things.
18. Cloyster -
Walls Snorlax and, to a lesser extent, Tauros. Does a much better job than anything else of it. Can also Explode. Just not enough tools offensively to keep up with Lapras in non-Wrap, though.
19. Persian -
Can you tell that I don't much like Persian? That said, disrespecting it further than this would just be criminal.
20. Victreebel -
Swords Dance Vic can be tough to deal with when Gengar isn't around. Unfortunately, its typing and stats don't offer a ton of opportunities to switch in or set up.
21. Venusaur -
Like Vic, but with lower Attack in exchange for higher Speed and better Physical bulk. This might actually be a fair trade.
22. Gyarados -
Cool attacker, but a gimmick nonetheless.
23. Flareon -
Same as above. Flareon is real, yo.
24. Clefable -
It pretends to be a fusion of attacker and support, but in reality it's mediocre at both. Still can be difficult to deal with, though.
25. Dodrio -
Funny anti-lead. Also hits like a Snorlax. Walled to hell by Rocks though.
26. Poliwrath -
Submission + Counter makes this the best Normal-pressurer in the game. Don't use Amnesia and pretend this is Slowbro, though. Last 2 moves can be tough to decide. Amnesia + Blizzard doesn't seem like a bad idea, although Hypnosis can be fun, as can Surf.
27. Golduck -
Speedy Amnesia-er. Not very Physically tanky though.
28. Dragonite -
A worse Gyarados. Still strong, though.
29. Dugtrio -
A crit machine. Just don't let it take a hit!
30. Kangaskhan -
Not too big on it. It purports to be a mini-Tauros with Counter, or some sort of fast Snorlax, but in reality its Special is way too low for it to have any sort of consistency.
Okay at this point ranking gimmicks is just impossible, so here's a list (in no particular order) of other things at least worth a mention:
Moltres
Nidoking
Raichu
Tentacruel
Charizard
Ninetales
Sandslash
Tangela
Vaporeon
Aerodactyl
Machamp
Hitmonlee
Muk
Omastar
Weezing
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Post by marcoasd on Apr 3, 2014 10:04:54 GMT -8
Jorgen made a really good rank IMO, while Cloyster deserves much more if Wrap is allowed, and it should be.
Articuno can't do much, and neither Hypno (BL zone), while things like Victreebel (can use wrap when something paralyzed switches into Sleep Powder, but faster things like Alakazam and Starmie have to be at least paralyzed before using) and Persian are low OU.
Tauros can win games on his own with luck, Snorlax can switch into physical attacks (Tauros too), and is the best vs Chansey, I think it should be considered an uncontested 2. Exeggutor is the best sleeper of the game and it's a shame it's only 4th. Chansey is well known for what it does, but once I've concluded this cycle I'm into, I'm gonna try to play without it.
Alakazam is overrated IMO, as it's not as dangerous as Starmie. Lapras is more consistent on the physical side, and has a wide moveset.
Clefable is misunderstood, so underrated. I'd prefer to have a Kangaskhan more than an Articuno, as it can sweep on the physical side, and that's my interpretation: I rank lower things for how much they can fit into a standard team. So, my ranking is:
1-Tauros 1-Snorlax 1-Exeggutor 1-Chansey 5-Lapras 6-Starmie 7-Alakazam 8-Golem 8-Rhydon 10-Cloyster 11-Zapdos 12-Jolteon 13- Victrebeel 14-Gengar 15-Clefable 16-Jynx 17-Persian 18-Slowbro 19-Kangaskhan 20- Raichu 21-Dragonite 22-Hypno 23-Articuno
Obviously not definitive.
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Post by jorgen on Apr 3, 2014 14:32:57 GMT -8
You are really low on Jynx and Slowbro, man.
Also yeah, below Alakazam I start to feel a bit iffy about my rankings, below Gengar my numbers start to get significantly interchangeable, and below Persian is the point where I literally just started listing gimmicks in random order. It's tough to actually rank low-tier mons, but really easy to rank the top 5 or so. So I might very well have done Kanga and Clefable injustice, but who really knows that far down?
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 3, 2014 15:02:08 GMT -8
1-Tauros 1-Snorlax 1-Exeggutor 1-Chansey 5-Lapras 6-Starmie 7-Alakazam 8-Golem 8-Rhydon 10-Cloyster 11-Zapdos 12-Jolteon 13- Victrebeel 14-Gengar 15-Clefable 16-Jynx 17-Persian 18-Slowbro 19-Kangaskhan 20- Raichu 21-Dragonite 22-Hypno 23-Articuno Obviously not definitive. Cloy and Vic are ranked way too high for non-wrap (which I'd assume this is given Dragonite being so low). Slowbro lower than Clefable? Please. Mine would be something like: 1 Snorlax 2 Exeggutor 3 Chansey 4 Tauros 5 Alakazam 6 Starmie 7 Golem 8 Rhydon 9 Slowbro 10 Lapras 11 Gengar 12 Jynx 13 Zapdos 14 Articuno 15 Persian 16 Jolteon With Wrap legal: 1 Exeggutor 2 Tauros 3 Snorlax 4 Chansey 5 Alakazam 6 Starmie 7 Golem 8 Rhydon 9 Dragonite 10 Slowbro 11 Gengar 12 Cloyster 13 Lapras 14 Zapdos 15 Jynx 16 Articuno 17 Victreebel 18 Persian 19 Jolteon Main differences are that 1) Snorlax/Chansey aren't quite as good with Wrap around; 2) Gengar is better because Dragonite and Cloyster are both walled by it; 3) Jynx drops a little since its main niche of sleep-leading is a little less relevant (sleep's still better than para, but not by as much since you can wake up during Wrap and speed's more important). |
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Post by CrapAtRBY on Apr 3, 2014 16:56:37 GMT -8
I guess I'll try my hand at this
1) Tauros
Does this really need to be justified? He can lay waste to entire teams so much more easily than any other OU mon
2) Chansey
Excellent status absorber and spreader, great at pressuring opponents and forcing switches, hard counters Starmie and makes short work of Slowbro (with T-bolt) or can suprise a Tauros and/or Snorlax with Counter.
3) Snorlax
Incredibly versatile and can easily slot in to any team
4) Exeggutor
Great as a lead and can do just about anything, outspeeding Chansey does wonders for it and playing mind games with explosion is a lot of fun and can be very effective
5) Alakazam
Great speed and can take on Chansey and deal insane damage with STAB Psychic
6) Rhydon
Insane attack power, edges out Golem for me
7) Golem
The gap between Rhydon and Golem is bigger than most people appreciate imo, explosion is good but misuse it or get out predicted by your opponent and you've just rendered using Golem over Rhydon pointless
8) Starmie
If only it had 5 moveslots, there's so much it has the potential to do but you have to sacrifice so much of it's utility mo matter which move you drop
9) Lapras
Should probably be more common, STAB Ice Beam/Blizzard and parafusion can wreck. If it got Recover it could be godly.
10) Zapdos
Drill pecking a rock on the switch and watching them get KO'd by Surflax is always fun. If Zapdos got surf or even bubblebeam I think it could be uber (bubblebeam does 87.05%-102.48% to Golem and 84.75% - 99.76% to Rhydon (the chance to KO after a drill peck for these could be an interesting, if useless statistic))
11) Gengar
Both the fastest sleeper and a good sleep absorber and immune to normal attacks, the fact that it's a viable ghost in a metagame where Psychic types and EQ run rampant speaks volumes
12) Jynx
A great (anti)lead, it's just a shame it can't do anything outside of that except maybe stall Chansey if it has rest or get a surprise counter on a Tauros, both very situational
13) Articuno
Can switch in to Tauros an that Blizzard hurts likes hell, plus Sky Attack can draw in the rocks for Surflax
14) Slowbro
If it can get past Chansey and your opponent's team is para'd to a decent degree it can wreck house, but it's too easily countered imo. High risk, high reward
15) Persian
A fun and decent supplement to Tauros but it's hard to justify a slot on your team unless you've designed it around using a back up physical sweeper
16) Kanga
Read above
17) Dodrio
A fun anti lead that can be suprisingly potent late game with no rocks
18) Jolteon
Kinda stuck in limbo of too good for BL, not that good in OU, the rocks prevent it from really using it's crit rate and having to resort to double kick and pin missile says a lot.
19) Cloyster
in non-wrap it's a safe switch in to Tauros but there's so much your opponent can switch in on Cloyster that this niche loses a lot of its gusto, explosion is always nice though
I haven't used other niche-mons like Kingler and Raichu to comment on them and there might be some misconceptions in what I've written above but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents as this seems like a nice community.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 3, 2014 22:41:32 GMT -8
7) Golem The gap between Rhydon and Golem is bigger than most people appreciate imo, explosion is good but misuse it or get out predicted by your opponent and you've just rendered using Golem over Rhydon pointless Their damage ranges do overlap both offensively and defensively, though, so there don't exist any things that Rhydon will always do but Golem will never do. As such, you can turn that argument on its head and say that if you get bad damage rolls with Rhydon, your use of it over Golem is pointless.  It's definitely good, but the Rock weakness hurts it compared to Starmie/Slowbro when switching into Rocks, Starmie lasts longer and spreads status better thanks to Recover and Thunder Wave respectively (and the difference in power is mostly cancelled out by Starmie's stupid crit rate), and as a Rester it's competing with Slowbro, which resists Psychic and can set up with Amnesia. Pro tip: Smart players will realise you have Surf if you switch Lax into a Rock. Fishlax is good, but it works far better when it's unexpected - ie, when you haven't revealed Zapdos (because the two are almost always paired). IE, do it the other way around; Surf it first, and then if it's still alive, you can finish it with Drill Peck if/when it comes in. Rocks won't stay in on Articuno after Sky Attack, they'll switch back out (because Articuno's Blizzard is an OHKO). However, if they switch in as you charge, you can't switch out and will be KOed by Rock Slide. So no, it's a terrible lure for Rocks. Also, Tauros outspeeds it and has about a 50% chance of 3HKOing it, so it's not a very good Tauros counter (there's also crits and paraslams to consider). It's a good check (probably third-best after Starmie and Slowbro), but switching it into Tauros and expecting it to win is risky at best. Slowbro has two safe counters: Light Screen Chansey and Light Screen Starmie. You won't see either of them outside of Ubers, because they both have terrible 4MSS and Light Screen has no use outside of walling Amnesia users. Everything else, and I mean everything, is unsafe switching into Slowbro. Victreebel and Starmie are the most reliable, but Victreebel is potentially 2HKOed by Psychic (or OHKOed by +2 Psychic), and Starmie is relying on the RNG to beat Slowbro before it's worn down by a fullpara or specialfall; it's certainly not a wall. Zapdos, Jolteon and Gengar have a decent chance, but they're still reliant on the RNG (and don't get many chances at it) because Slowbro can Amnesia on the switch (it's particularly bad if they're already paralysed). Chansey's not a good answer because it'll only get 3-4 Thunderbolts off and it's got a <10% crit rate. And, well, "if your opponent's team is paralysed"... Slowbro has Thunder Wave. And its best counters are fast things, which detest being Thunder Waved. As such, Slowbro is a great paralysis spreader even if it doesn't actually end up sweeping. Double Kick and Pin Missile aren't actually that bad (Starmie and Rhydon, respectively, would sure appreciate them), you just don't see them because they have crappy distribution (Jolteon is one of two Pokemon that learns Pin Missile, and one of 4 fully-evolved Pokemon to get Double Kick). But yeah, it's not great. Cloyster isn't a Tauros counter even on paper (well, unless it's running Reflect and Rest, I guess, which will still only buy you one successful switch-in). Tauros 4HKOs with Body Slam + Hyper Beam; Cloyster can't 2HKO with Blizzard. There's also always the possibility of getting haxed with crits and paralysis. Good to see a newbie speaking up, though. Don't take any of my comments personally. |
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 3, 2014 23:07:51 GMT -8
06. Lapras - Dangerous attacker. STAB Blizzards hurt, and parafusion antics destroy Chansey. Or it can stall. A great Snorlax check.  Destroying Chansey, as you call it, is an illuuuuuusion. Seriously though, most of the time it's going to lose anyway (I am currently in the process of figuring out the exact chance). The temptation to leave Lapras in on Chansey often leads people to throw it down the drain where they would have saved a Starmie for later. The freeze immunity is honestly more important than the slightly better Chansey matchup. Both of them switch into a lot of Blizzards, after all. |
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Post by marcoasd on Apr 4, 2014 3:49:47 GMT -8
I assume Wrap must be legal.
Maybe I've been too harsh on Slowbro, as it can switch into Tauros safely, but it doesn't guarantee to do some good work every game, even if it can win on its own sometimes. It can't really do much without setting up.
Zapdos needs setup as well, but then it damages heavily both specialists and physicals.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 4, 2014 4:01:14 GMT -8
I assume Wrap must be legal. Maybe I've been too harsh on Slowbro, as it can switch into Tauros safely, but it doesn't guarantee to do some good work every game, even if it can win on its own sometimes. It can't really do much without setting up. Zapdos needs setup as well, but then it damages heavily both specialists and physicals. So why did you rate Dragonite lower than both Cloyster and Victreebel, and even crap like Kangaskhan and Raichu? |
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Post by marcoasd on Apr 4, 2014 4:10:27 GMT -8
I assume Wrap must be legal. Maybe I've been too harsh on Slowbro, as it can switch into Tauros safely, but it doesn't guarantee to do some good work every game, even if it can win on its own sometimes. It can't really do much without setting up. Zapdos needs setup as well, but then it damages heavily both specialists and physicals. So why did you rate Dragonite lower than both Cloyster and Victreebel, and even crap like Kangaskhan and Raichu? I don't like it at all, as the only thing it can do is agiliwrap. You try to set up, and then things like Gengar, Cloyster, Articuno and Lapras can switch in, and at that point it's very risky to go on: the miss means KO (bar Blizz miss). Thunder Wave ruins Dnite chances as well. Dnite vs Gengar is really bad, and in any scenario, it all comes down to when Wrap will miss. If it happens too early, that's the waste of a pokemon. Victrebeel has the same trouble, but at least has Sleep Powder and is not trolled by a paralyzed thing switching in. Razor Leaf can be useful. Cloyster is the best as it can use Clamp, counter physicals and finally explode. I can rarely use Kangaskhan or Raichu, but I'm not seeing myself using Dnite. Never ever. |
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 4, 2014 4:38:02 GMT -8
I don't like it at all, as the only thing it can do is agiliwrap. You try to set up, and then things like Gengar, Cloyster, Articuno and Lapras can switch in, and at that point it's very risky to go on: the miss means KO (bar Blizz miss). Thunder Wave ruins Dnite chances as well. Dnite vs Gengar is really bad, and in any scenario, it all comes down to when Wrap will miss. If it happens too early, that's the waste of a pokemon. Victrebeel has the same trouble, but at least has Sleep Powder and is not trolled by a paralyzed thing switching in. Razor Leaf can be useful. Cloyster is the best as it can use Clamp, counter physicals and finally explode. I can rarely use Kangaskhan or Raichu, but I'm not seeing myself using Dnite. Never ever. It's also very good at revenging stuff (particularly Rocks), since your opponent will fear to switch lest it set up for free and sweep. And while bulky Ices are decent against it, it breaks them quite often (without taking any chip damage), and it can simply Wrap-switch out. |
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Post by marcoasd on Apr 4, 2014 4:46:48 GMT -8
I don't like it at all, as the only thing it can do is agiliwrap. You try to set up, and then things like Gengar, Cloyster, Articuno and Lapras can switch in, and at that point it's very risky to go on: the miss means KO (bar Blizz miss). Thunder Wave ruins Dnite chances as well. Dnite vs Gengar is really bad, and in any scenario, it all comes down to when Wrap will miss. If it happens too early, that's the waste of a pokemon. Victrebeel has the same trouble, but at least has Sleep Powder and is not trolled by a paralyzed thing switching in. Razor Leaf can be useful. Cloyster is the best as it can use Clamp, counter physicals and finally explode. I can rarely use Kangaskhan or Raichu, but I'm not seeing myself using Dnite. Never ever. It's also very good at revenging stuff (particularly Rocks), since your opponent will fear to switch lest it set up for free and sweep. And while bulky Ices are decent against it, it breaks them quite often (without taking any chip damage), and it can simply Wrap-switch out. In my vision of the game that's different, because I rarely use Rocks... but I'd let it use Agility, and be covered with Lapras or Gengar. When I build my team, I know that Wrap is legal, and I take that into account, just like I know that Zapdos, Persian and Slowbro are there. Most people don't, lol. Wrap switch out means you're losing momentum, from a situation where you were about to revenge kill or something. If it can break Ice types, that's luck and I'm fine with that, but i prefer to leave those things to my opponent. |
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Isa
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Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Apr 4, 2014 5:04:23 GMT -8
Wrap switches are actually the biggest momentum gains in RBY. =p
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Post by marcoasd on Apr 4, 2014 5:16:08 GMT -8
Wrap switches are actually the biggest momentum gains in RBY. =p If you Clamp/Wrap a paralyzed Chansey, and throw in Snorlax, they are... but if you switch in Chansey or a staller, they're not that good. |
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Isa
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Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Apr 4, 2014 7:13:59 GMT -8
Wrap and Clamp draws in fast Pokémon - the most common Wrap/Clamp switch-in is probably Starmie, followed by Gengar. We all know Gengar can easily be threatened by offensive Pokémon. Starmie is somewhat more difficult to abuse offensively since its main counter is Chansey, but you can Wrap/Clamp it for a few turns (damage dealt is almost identical from DNite Wrap and Cloy Clamp), then switch out to Zapdos or Jolteon regardless of moveset and win, go Egg if it lacks Blizzard; Slowbro, Lapras or your own Starmie if it lacks Thunderbolt; and Gengar if it lacks Psychic. All of these mons require an active response unlike Chansey, the most passive mon in RBY OU (with the possible exception of something like Rest Hypno). If you use a wrapping move and fail to get momentum, that's not the fault of Wrap. Every Pokémon that switches in on Wrap has matchups it'd rather like to skip.
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Post by sanesti on Apr 4, 2014 9:00:02 GMT -8
I have a tier ranking. In every single tier, pokémons are close. Moreover, pokémons with same colour are very close. For instance, Exeggutor can be second or third : this doesn't change the ranking.
It's a ranking, but all these pokémons are good. Don't say me "Jynx and Jolteon are good!". Of course they are. That's why they're OverUsed.
I assume Wrap is banned.
TOP TIER
1) Tauros
2) Snorlax
3) Chansey
4) Exeggutor
HIGH TIER
5) Alakazam
6) Starmie
7) Lapras
8) Golem
9) Rhydon
MEDIUM TIER
10) Slowbro
11) Zapdos
12) Gengar
13) Jynx
14) Persian
LOW TIER
15) Jolteon
16) Articuno
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Isa
Member
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Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Apr 4, 2014 9:41:59 GMT -8
www.rby2k10.proboards.com/thread/1050/ou-rankings-fall-2011It's fun to see how things have changed. WW has Rhydon at 15th, Articuno at 11 and Gengar at 5th. t3h Icy has Slowbro at 17th, Alakazam over Snorlax and Jynx at 8th. I too had Alakazam over Snorlax and Gengar at 7th. Good old Garrin Red had Kadabra over Jolteon and Articuno at 15th. In today's metagame, Wrap or no Wrap, I think everyone would agree Gengar is not top 5 except maybe a resurrected WaterWizard. Times have changed. =p And looking back, I definitely agree with Crystal's old criticism of RBY2K10 mentality...we were way too hyped on Gengar. lol I'll also do honor posthuman and quote his post, last edited only a month ago: Since everyone's doing within-OU tiers: 1) Tauros 2) Chansey 3) Snorlax, Eggy, Alakazam 4) Starmie, Lapras 5) Gengar, Jynx, Zapdos, Golem, Rhydon 6) Articuno, Persian, Jolteon, Slowbro Edit: I WAS SO WRONG Tauros Exeggutor Snorlax Chansey Alakazam Lapras Rhydon Starmie Jynx Gengar Zapdos Persian Golem Slowbro Articuno Jolteon Hypno
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Post by sanesti on Apr 4, 2014 10:16:15 GMT -8
I think that RBY2K10 community was a bit haughty. They was constantly saying "smogon is so wrooong", but I think Smogon wasn't THAT wrong. In fact, the actual metagame is pretty close to the smogon one. Maybe Nitro was right when he said "smogon is ok and rby2k10 is retarded".
Of couse, things have changed.
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Isa
Member
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Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Apr 4, 2014 10:25:50 GMT -8
I wasn't around for the big battles with Smogon, but in my memories the biggest deal with Smogon was Wrap, not metagame powerhousess.
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Post by sanesti on Apr 4, 2014 10:32:36 GMT -8
Anyway, WW and t3h icy was among the best rby2k10 players, and their rankings are laughable. Gengar 5th? Articuno and Persian better than Golem?
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 4, 2014 12:17:01 GMT -8
Anyway, WW and t3h icy was among the best rby2k10 players, and their rankings are laughable. Gengar 5th? Articuno and Persian better than Golem? With how good WW's prediction skills are, I'm not surprised he'd rank Gengar very highly. And while Articuno isn't great on its own, it's absolutely legit alongside Gengar. |
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Post by marcoasd on Apr 4, 2014 14:20:11 GMT -8
Again, I think someday you'll look back and think that at the moment Alakazam is over-hyped.
As a lead it's viable, but Starmie is better unless you want to lure out Egg, or have troubles with electrics.
As a staller it's a bad Chansey that can cause some pressure, but often not enough. As a sweeper, Starmie has more coverage.
I think Clefable isn't getting the credit it deserves, as it's a normal version of Lapras.
It fits extremely well with the standard 4, taking Lapras' place to cover better Zapdos, and is highly versatile.
It's funny that everybody has an ultimate opinion about the Golem/Rhydon argument, but in the end i'd say it's a 50/50 if we count.
This shows how subjective a ranking can be.
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Post by jorgen on Apr 4, 2014 15:14:20 GMT -8
Perhaps. My ranking of Zam as high as I did is probably a function of its utility as a lead with its SToss set. Apart from that, though, it's a bit of a liability as a Recoverer, as it still falls to strong Special moves and is (actually) destroyed by any Physical attacker. I feel like, in a metagame where people prioritize paralysis more heavily and they get more reckless with Snorlax, Alakazam falls significantly in these rankings.
That said, it'll never fall as far as Gengar did. He was massively overhyped.
Also Golem/Rhydon isn't a great example of subjectivity in rankings because most people will admit that both have their situational pros and cons and will rank them very close to each other even if they do express a preference of one over the other. However, I find it interesting how Golem and Rhydon collectively fluctuate wildly in their positions on lists like these (I was looking at Posthuman's edit and wondering what was really different about it, then I noticed the placement of the rocks). It's understandable why this would happen though, because while their raw power is impressive and their brickwalling of Zapdos is truly glorious, Zapdos isn't seen most of the time and their low Speed and Special make them liabilities against other Special attackers.
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Post by sanesti on Apr 4, 2014 15:34:10 GMT -8
All of us have ranked Alakazam 5th, and marcoasd have ranked it 7th. And then he say "you're making a big mistake about zam!".
That's a bit empathic...
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 4, 2014 16:41:42 GMT -8
Again, I think someday you'll look back and think that at the moment Alakazam is over-hyped. As a lead it's viable, but Starmie is better unless you want to lure out Egg, or have troubles with electrics. As a staller it's a bad Chansey that can cause some pressure, but often not enough. As a sweeper, Starmie has more coverage. I don't like Zam very much, myself. I prefer Starmie. But I think you're underselling it. - Reflect Zam beats physical Snorlax, which Chansey doesn't and Starmie has trouble with (unless they have Reflect, but Reflect Chansey's even more passive than Reflect Zam, and Starmie can't use Reflect well since it has special weaknesses). It's also pretty damned good against Amnesialax, whereas Chansey can't do shit apart from a possible freeze (Starmie's good too, but its crit Psychics hurt a lot less, and it dies horribly to the occasional Thunderbolt). - Most of the time, Zam can force Chansey and Starmie out (even if only for a single turn), allowing it to spread para further while they're limited to only paralysing your Zam. - In the lead matchup against Gengar, Starmie has a small but significant chance of dying outright (specifically, it dies if it doesn't crit Psychic and Gengar crits Thunderbolt). This is Bad News. Zam doesn't have that risk. - Zam really doesn't need that much coverage to sweep. It needs Recover users out of the way, but so does Starmie (barring another Starmie, and Starmie ditto is a coinflip). Slowbro and Rest Exeggutor wall Zam and not Starmie, but the latter's never seen. Everything else dies about as fast to Zam's Psychics as they do to Starmie's BlizzBolt. All that said, I did consider putting Starmie above Zam - they are very close in power, and Zam's certainly got more usage at the moment than it's any right to. But it is legitimately good - though certainly not better than Chansey as some would believe. The issue with Clefable is this. Does it Explode? No. Does it Recover? No. Does it 2HKO Chansey? No. Does it match or exceed Tauros' Speed? No. Does it get any good rare moves (e.g. Amnesia, Sleep Powder)? There's Sing, but that's it. Does it have a good typing? Decent, but not exceptional. It's not terrible, but the question "but what does it DO?" tends to crop up. (Also, it tends to feel like a "little Snorlax" the way Persian and Kangaskhan are "little Tauroi".) Well, some of them are subjective and some of them aren't. Golem/Rhydon is one where they're so close that it comes down to opinion. Same with Starmie/Alakazam. All of us have ranked Alakazam 5th, and marcoasd have ranked it 7th. And then he say "you're making a big mistake about zam!". That's a bit empathic... I think that marcoasd's annoyance is directed at others. Zam's usage on both simulators recently has been very high at >60% (on Showdown it was #3 after Tauros and Egg!), and when we had this discussion on Smogon late last year some people rated it as high as second-best after Tauros, which is pretty definitively overhyped. |
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Post by marcoasd on Apr 4, 2014 21:01:43 GMT -8
I don't like Zam very much, myself. I prefer Starmie. But I think you're underselling it. - Most of the time, Zam can force Chansey and Starmie out (even if only for a single turn), allowing it to spread para further while they're limited to only paralysing your Zam. - In the lead matchup against Gengar, Starmie has a small but significant chance of dying outright (specifically, it dies if it doesn't crit Psychic and Gengar crits Thunderbolt). This is Bad News. Zam doesn't have that risk. - Zam really doesn't need that much coverage to sweep. It needs Recover users out of the way, but so does Starmie (barring another Starmie, and Starmie ditto is a coinflip). Slowbro and Rest Exeggutor wall Zam and not Starmie, but the latter's never seen. Everything else dies about as fast to Zam's Psychics as they do to Starmie's BlizzBolt. The issue with Clefable is this. Does it Explode? No. Does it Recover? No. Does it 2HKO Chansey? No. Does it match or exceed Tauros' Speed? No. Does it get any good rare moves (e.g. Amnesia, Sleep Powder)? There's Sing, but that's it. Does it have a good typing? Decent, but not exceptional. It's not terrible, but the question "but what does it DO?" tends to crop up. (Also, it tends to feel like a "little Snorlax" the way Persian and Kangaskhan are "little Tauri".) Well, some of them are subjective and some of them aren't. Golem/Rhydon is one where they're so close that it comes down to opinion. Same with Starmie/Alakazam. All of us have ranked Alakazam 5th, and marcoasd have ranked it 7th. And then he say "you're making a big mistake about zam!". That's a bit empathic... I think that marcoasd's annoyance is directed at others. Zam's usage on both simulators recently has been very high at >60% (on Showdown it was #3 after Tauros and Egg!), and when we had this discussion on Smogon late last year some people rated it as high as second-best after Tauros, which is pretty definitively overhyped. I think Lapras can be over Alakazam and Starmie, while not easy to argue. I give a lot of importance to sleep moves and physical moves, so I can give a different ranking even on things that most people would not. Alakazam can at very best paralyze Exeggutor, and if someone leaves Gengar in vs Starmie, he's taking a risk as Starmie is faster (so, less than 50%), no to mention the non CH scenario, where Starmie can Recover. Egg switching in is more real, and Starmie is better as a sleep bait. The dismissal you did for Clefable would crop up Lapras too. I know the story of Ice immunity, walls Cloyster, Articuno... Blizzard hurts, and Cray can be useful, but Normal STAB is nice and Thunder Wave is a good move. If you look closely, Clefable is one of the best sleep and stunners (better than Hypno, at least in OU), and can stay in front of Chansey for a while (hence you called it a mini Snorlax). Sing is only 5% less than Hypnosis... The fact that everybody ranked Zam 5th is itself a over-hype, as a player new to RBY coming here would consider it a must for his team, while it's not! And then you have Zam's usage over Chansey and Snorlax for even more overhype. |
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Post by jorgen on Apr 4, 2014 21:42:52 GMT -8
I really don't think Alakazam and Starmie are all that comparable, even though they often butt heads over a teamslot. Zam is a better Sleep absorber and paralysis spreader. Starmie is a better all-purpose check to otherwise difficult-to-counter Pokemon (e.g., Tauros, Slowbro). In my experience, Sleep Absorber is generally what I need more out of that teamslot, so I tend to pick Zam over Starmie.
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Post by cheese on Apr 4, 2014 23:18:35 GMT -8
I'm going to be comparing the change in opinions shortly, as I've made a lovely spreadsheet of people's rankings compared to the 2011 thread. There are quite a few subtle changes, but obviously the samples aren't really big enough to read too much into the statistics.
This has happened to me SOOO many times!
As for Clefable, as others have said the main problem is that it doesn't really excel at anything. The only thing going for it is it's versatility and the fact that it knows Thunder Wave.
It's Attack isn't really high enough to abuse STAB.
It's Special isn't really high enough to abuse type coverage.*
Sing is decent, but inaccurate.
It also struggles against Gengar.
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