The RBY Book

[Actaeon]

Hello everyone. As you may know I am writing a book about competitive RBY. It is a dream of mine to have the most comprehensive guide ever on RBY in my closet. I know some people here are very enthusiastic about this, and I can use all the help available, both for linguistic corrections as acquiring useful information.

Please feel free to comment!

www.filedropper.com/rby

EDIT: I will post updates by changing the link occasionally.

[Crystal_]

This is such an ambitious work and it looks like you are enjoying it. I hope it all goes well

[Agent Syrup]

OOOOoooohhh! Sounds awesome, I can't wait to read the Victreebel section!

[Actaeon]

Why are you particularly interested in the analysis of Victreebel?

[Crystal_]

Excellent work so far. Gave it a brief read and it looks great.

Just a couple random things I noticed. Just some random extremely minor details/comments, basically for the sake of commenting about something:

3.2.4

Cloyster, Dragonite, Victreebel and Tentacruel are moved to the OU tier if partialtrapping
moves are allowed. Otherwise, they would be too hard to deal with in the
BL metagame.

This makes it sound like OU somehow can also act as UU's BL. The funny thing is that I can see what you are talking about here actually happening in reality, but the concept, as you stated before, is that OU -> UU based on usage, and UU -> BL based on centralization of UU. It's just that this paragraph might not be consistent with your previous explanations of each tier, more than anything else. (I don't want to start a discussion about whether wrappers should be banned from BL or not or anything related).

2.3

When I read this I control+f'd the word "walled" just for curiosity and there was no other match I found:

Good. An oensive stat in this range can be dangerous to a wide array of
Pokémon given a selection of good moves to back it up. Defensively, many
attacks can be walled, although still very dependent on the HP basestat.
Speaking of HP, a basestat over 80 is mostly considered above average.

The reader will probably get a hint of what it means, but it might be a good idea to introduce the word in somw way, or just italic it and/or astherisk it.

There was one last one thing I wanted to comment about but I don't remember it =/

Anyway, great job. Looking forward to see how it progresses. Good luck!

P.S.: I loved all the matchematical notation and stuff. Everything looks so accurate and well structured. When I saw the mention to the stats get divided by 4 during damage calculation if either is >255 it made me smile , first time I stumbled upon damage calc section I thought for some reason hey let's see if he knows about this... and you indeed did!

[Actaeon]

Thanks Crystal, this kind of feedback is exactly what I am looking for.

You are right about the OU/BL/UU thing, I started working on that paragraph today and I'll definitely make a remark about that. Currently, I just named a few reasons why they are less broken in OU than in BL if partial-trapping moves are used. The whole partial-trapping move thing creates exceptions in every form of Tier-ing, because their usefulness is based on very intrinsic properties that are only clear by having experienced their effects.

And being walled was undefined indeed; I will definitely change that.

Cheers!

[Agent Syrup]

May 9, 2014 14:02:26 GMT -8 Actaeon said:

Why are you particularly interested in the analysis of Victreebel?

I'm a Victreebel enthusiast for competitive battling. Victreebel sweeps in OU are pretty much my favorite thing to ever exist.

[marcoasd]

I have troubles with the download, so maybe I'll get the book via email.
The main thing about SD Bel as a sweeper is that the moveset is tricky.
I wouldn't use Sleep Powder. The thing that will stop Bel most of the time is Tauros (Razor Leaf can't 2HKO, while it can miss, and can't "crit").
Stun Spore is guaranteed to screw it even if the opponent has saved the sleeping pokè.
Against Chansey HB is risky, and +2 Body Slam does 49.5-58.1%, so it's not that impossible to put Chansey in that range (63.5-75% vs Alakazam).
Body Slam can help in both cases as 4th move. Vs Tauros, at least you're doing damage (+2 BS is 37.1-43.6%) and have a chance to paralyze.

And obviously it's not easy to find a good way to use it. It can work if used at the right time in a series, but I wouldn't recommend it for laddering.

[jorgen]

The point with SD Vic is it's unexpected. You whip it out ideally when your opponent sacs their Sleep absorber to your exploding Egg or something. If you're looking for consistency, SD Vic is not where you'll find it. Bslam is pretty weak and it's really only good on Kingler (the other SDer likely to use it) for paralyzing Starmies, which Victreebel has no problems with.

[marcoasd]

TWave and Psychic are reasons to worry... the main point is still that a move for Tauros is needed, and Sleep Powder can be useless (on a pokemon that has troubles with the slots). Stun Spore if Body Slam is not good enough (being a 100% move is another reason to use it)

[Isa]

I'd use Stun Spore-RLeaf-SDance-HBeam.

Tentacruel isn't OU with Wrap allowed.

Nice book

[jorgen]

Agreed on Tentacruel.

I gotta wonder what the logical flow of the chapters will look like, though. I mean, you're getting down to the basics of mechanics right now, and are planning to jump right to competitive. What topics do you plan to cover, and how do you plan to handle some of the finer points to the art of battling that don't really have objective backing? Also, is there any in-game component to this book?

[cheese]

I would mention Critical Hit ratios under Stats in 2.3 (obviously when talking about Speed).

It might also be nice to mention in 2.3 that the damage an attack does is a combination of the Pokemon's attack stat (or special) and the defending pokemon's defence stat (or special). Also that the percentage damage depends on the defending pokemon's HP as well. This may seem kind of obvious, but you've written that the attack stat determines how much damage a pokemon deals, and then that the defence stat measures how much damage a pokemon takes. They seem to contradict each other.

[Actaeon]

There will be no part of this book dedicated purely to in-game matters. As said in the preface and several other places throughout the book, there are other sources about this that cover it better than I ever could (although I find all mechanics in in-game RBY interesting and have acquired quite an amount of knowledge about it).

About the logical structure of the book... Basically, the entire second chapter and the first two paragraphs of the third chapter cover the "rules" of an RBY battle. The third paragraph of the third chapter will cover the "real" transition to competitive play. Different functions on a team will be discussed, as well as the main objectives of the game and efficient ways to accomplish them (these discussions will apply to every tier and; they reflect on "standard battling"). The other paragraphs in chapter 3 will provide an in-depth look into all metagames, and have a reference the strategy dex. Upon reading the Strategy Dex (chapter 4), many things will become clear for the reader.

Chapter 5 (and maybe 6) will contain more in-depth articles about particular choices, prediction (psychological warfare), new ideas, reasons why certain Pokémon are used over others, specific matchups, theorymon, unorthodox tiers little Little Cup and many other curiosities (maybe even an article about RBYPlus).

I hope this enlightens some aspects of the "logical" build of my book.

[Actaeon]

@ cheese: I will try and change that explanation about damage to make things more clear.

@ Isa: OK, can somebody give me an accurate description of the tiers with partial-trapping moves allowed? I hardly ever play with tolerated Wrap moves, so I'm not so sure. Swords Dance Wrap Tentacruel is pretty scary in BL because of its already high Speed imo, but I don't know if there are official banlists yet.

Also, does there already exist an article about tiers and their changes during the last years? It would be an interesting thing to implement some "history".

[Isa]

Regarding tiers:

With Wrap not allowed, it's easy. All Pokémon with Wrapping moves belong to the tiers they're in here at 2K10.
Without, it's not as easy. Smogon has a tier list, where all wrappers are still BL, though Articuno and Jolteon are dropped from OU to BL (now UU, see below). However, this doesn't really reflect the true power of good Wrap users, and as such, me and Crystal_ took the decision on PO to put Dragonite, Cloyster and Victreebel in OU. If I sound grandiose, it's unintentional...we were the ones who actually decided upon the tier placement. =p (link)
HOWEVER, at one point during the shaping of the tiers on PO, Smogon was contacted. Their tier list was different from the 2K10 (and PO) list - Articuno and Jolteon were in BL instead of OU, and Charizard and Sandslash were in BL instead of UU. They also lacked a NU tier. Upon contact, Smogon admin Hipmonlee decided to remove the BL tier completely and merge it with the UU tier, since Smogon had never really played any other tier than RBY OU. This was made in order to increase legitimacy for the tiering process at PO which at the time was heavily influenced by 2K10 members, a very kind gesture from Hipmonlee.
RBY NU was created by RBY2K10 at some point. I am not sure when, but it was before March 2011, when I joined. It's made with the assumption that Wrap is illegal and might be unbalanced if used (Agility-Wrap from Dragonair, or just a very very fast Wrap from Rapidash).

With the exception of Dragonite, Cloyster and Victreebel being OU instead of BL due to Wrap being legal, all tiers on PO are clones of the RBY2K10 tiers.

[Actaeon]

I'll be sure to add the information in an uncluttered way. Thanks Isa.

[piexplode]

So what exactly should it contain, this book?
I think if you went for total comprehensiveness I'd go for
1] mass damage calcs (not sure if this suits a book it's so huge in number anyway)
2] crit ratios
3] in depth analyses of each pokemon considered even borderline viable in OU
4] in depth guides to the main pokemon, how and why they're used, what they add to a team, etc.
5] a guide to teambuilding (not too complicated usually) - maybe beginner and advanced?
6] analyses of parts of the game
 i] leading (comparing the matchups of the common leads and how it affects the rest of the game)
 ii] early game (after the leading) (both how you aim to play, what your aim is versus the opp and how to carry it out, etc)
 iii] midgame(not sure how separate this is but this probably is more when you've got a few mons para'd and it's tauros time more or less)
 iv] endgame (dealing with common endgame scenarios, etc.)
7] mechanics guide (covering main differences with later gens)
8] wrap vs non-wrap, both its effect on the history of the tier, and how they affect play.
9] misc. info
10] poke vs poke matchups like that lapras vs chansey thing m9m did

I guess part 6 is the meatiest, competing with part 1 for sheer volumes of text. So is it something like that you're looking at? And did I miss anything that sounds nessecary?

My thoughts on difficulty of  completion by part

1] easy to obtain thanks to Isa
2] easy to obtain thanks to WW
3] part-way there but still a bit of a way to add more  depth (if that's wanted) so difficulty depends on the level of information you want
4] would love to see this, might be really difficult tho
5] probably not too hard
6] overall pretty hard but looking by chunk
 i] long but not too complex I'd think
 ii] length really depending on depth, not sure how easy this is to write about
 iii] same as ii]
 iv] probably quite lengthy
7] relatively easy
8] pretty moderate
9] not surereally thoughts? (maybe basic info on probability, and lilith's freeze chance things, that sorta stuff?)
10] this hasn't been contributed to much yet one of the hardest parts too depending on depth, have fun with the probability and those markov chains m9m was talking about

[marcoasd]

Actually, I wrote (and gave somebody, including Actaeon) a guide about most of the points you wrote, and it didn't need that much of text.
Of course, somebody else can add something in teambuilding, or we could go into more specific details when talking about movesets (especially borderlines) and things like that, but

May 12, 2014 7:37:41 GMT -8 piexplode said:

10] this hasn't been contributed to much yet one of the hardest parts too depending on depth, have fun with the probability and those markov chains m9m was talking about

this is the real deal to get to the next level, and obviously I'm not the one that can help here.
Zapdos vs Chansey, Tauros vs unparalyzed Chansey, Lapras vs paralyzed Alakazam... there's a lot of things to analyze more.

[piexplode]

even having a general list of the most common situations would probably be a really good step in the right direction (I obviously don't have the experience to contribute to that)

also with a lot of what I said I think it was good for the sake of formalising the exact content, and also because whilst we do have good analyses, I always feel there's room for more depth, and more information about how to, for example, play tauros, what you think about when making a prediction, when and how you bring pokemon in, how you decide what pokemon to for example fodder to an explosion, allow to take a paralysis from alakazam or chansey etc. etc.

[marcoasd]

May 12, 2014 9:15:47 GMT -8 piexplode said:

even having a general list of the most common situations would probably be a really good step in the right direction (I obviously don't have the experience to contribute to that)

also with a lot of what I said I think it was good for the sake of formalising the exact content, and also because whilst we do have good analyses, I always feel there's room for more depth, and more information about how to, for example, play tauros, what you think about when making a prediction, when and how you bring pokemon in, how you decide what pokemon to for example fodder to an explosion, allow to take a paralysis from alakazam or chansey etc. etc.

Strategy can't be put into numbers that easily. Taking paralysis on Chansey is generally good if your team can take physical hits well, while you want to paralyze Zam with Chansey (instead of going for the freeze) if you lack Zam switch ins to get rid of special drops, or if you need Chansey healthy enough to stop enemy's Psychic Starmie or Zapdos (if you lack Golem).
Taking paralysis with non-lead Zam is something you want to avoid, as it is best used late game with Reflect, once at least 2 of your opponent's Egg, Chansey and Starmie are gone. Being unparalyzed is important to survive explosions.

[piexplode]

I appreciate what you're saying..
any scenarios mentioned under that sorta section needs that sort of information alongside to help provide context.

I wonder if maybe over a year or two every common (standard sets, standard points in the game) match up could be reasonably analysed so that within any match you have a lot more information available etc.

hmm I'm reaching a point where it's hard to say what I'm thinking with much real clarity.

Okay maybe I can add a little anecdote not sure how off-topic I'm getting but
the other day chatting with isa on PO and he said about people playing like monte carlo robots
so the idea they were functioning on was essentially making the best play irrespective of what the opponent actually does.
It wasn't very successful, unsuprisingly. What I think though is given a standard team and enough information you could reduce a large part of a battle into monte carlo bots playing based on the information of
their own team, current pokemon out, etc.
their opponent's current pokemon out
the amount of pokemon left in the opp's team
the known moves of the opp's pokemon
etc.

I think even still that has a lot of issues due to both being stupefyingly difficult to implement, yet also because you have pivotal choices in the battle which are all about prediction, deciding whether or not you think your opponent is gonna use explosion, are they gonna switch, etc. and it's also that risk/reward scenario, indeed seen from both sides.

So that's kinda me just babbling on, just some thoughts. Good luck on the book

[marcoasd]

I get what you (and Isa) are saying. I used to play like that after reading a guide (I was noob). I still do it sometimes when I don't pay enough attention XD
I don't think important games can be decided by an (early) predicted boom/predicted no switch that often.
The early plays (the important ones) are all around sleeping and inflicting status, or pemanent damage.
Personally, I always try to take advantage of my opponent's forced switches- and I'm sure Isa does the same thing.
Mostly it's on predicting switches, not moves: you get that sleep, that extra ice move, that Body Slam (main way to paralyze things, as stallers can't switch into it that well, except maybe Starmie- but paralyzing Starmie is really that good).
You will end up haxing the opponent.
Then, in endgame scenarios, you can play like Monte Carlo robots.

[Actaeon]

Of course I will try to implement as many in-depth considerations as possible (also in the strategy dex already). Indeed, calculating those hard probabilities with markov chains will be quite troublesome as in most cases that are relevant for choices in competitive play, too many factors apply. However, in cases like Tauros vs Tauros or Lapras vs Chansey, many interesting observations can be made factoring in the possibilities for both trainers.

These "guides" will most probably be postponed to more advanced chapters 5/6/(7?) and will first write the "standard stuff" every competitive players should know about.

When the time comes, I expect many discussions on this forum to contribute!

Regards.

[piexplode]

This sounds awesome :3

[Actaeon]

The download link in the OP contains the latest updates.

Chapter 3 is about halfway done, the competitive part is really getting off the ground now. Let me know what you think! Open to suggestions as always.

[piexplode]

I'm unable to download it.. could u maybe also make a copypasta into a pastebin, so I could read it like that?

[Actaeon]

Other people had the same problem, so I decided to upload it via MediaFire, as Lutra suggested. Link above has been changed.

[piexplode]

Holy shit this is epic Ily <3
I would ask u to marry me but I have a gf.

[Isa]

puu.sh/9zkII/446b56a45a.jpg

Tentacruel and Moltres aren't moved to OU. Typing/Power/Accuracy are issues.

Gengar is a Poison-type mon in OU.

There's a few typos as well but these are factual errors which I found more relevant.

Nevertheless this is looking brilliant. Looking forward to the next update.