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Post by brookman on Oct 5, 2014 2:48:23 GMT -8
IMO Tier list. The top six is arguably one of the most consistent team line ups in its own right. egg, golem/rhydon, chansey are more or less mandatory in a blind match to cover the primary threats (zapdos, starmie, etc) Snorlax, Tauros, and Zapdos are uniquely capable of destroying weakened teams and of course, are needed to get over the great wall of chansey. Next up are the Prime Special Sweepers in Zam, Starmie, and Slowbro. Zam for brute special force, Starmie for versatility, Slowbro for potentially insurmountable advantage late game. I rank the fastest sleepers next for obvious reasons. Both are fragile but equally useful through their unique traits (normal immunity, stab blizzard + crits) Clampster and Lapras for their unique bulk and ability deal with egg/snorlax/tauros. Persian, Jolteon, wrapagilinite, victreebell, dugtrio all serve more limited uses in the sweeping department than their aforementioned counterparts but also have unique enough advantages IMO to round out the top 20. Hypno is useful but mostly outclassed by the other psychics/sleepers through speed/recover. Dodrio, poliwrath, venusaur, moltres, charizard and gyarados hover around the bottom of the semi-useful OU contenders who again are generally outclassed by the top tier standards but can shine with the right levels of luck and support.
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Post by piexplode on Oct 5, 2014 5:51:17 GMT -8
kingler is missing lol
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Post by cheese on Oct 5, 2014 6:31:43 GMT -8
A few comments: -Why is Tauros so low? I've never seen him placed below Zapdos before. -Lapras and Zam seem surprisingly low too. I don't have much wrap experience, so perhaps Lapras' slow speed is more detrimental in that metagame, but Zam? -As mentioned above, Kingler deserves a mention. I also think Kangaskhan is pretty decent (although admittedly towards the end of the list there are loads of semi-viable pokemon).
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Post by brookman on Oct 5, 2014 6:52:23 GMT -8
Zam is low because he's not a threat so much when opposing chansey/starmie/Zam are on board. You can't use him as a revenge killer till they are out of the way. I put the rocks above him because 1. zapdos and 2. chansey killers.
The top are mostly physicals IMO because Chansey is the meta game. Zapdos is over Tauros because Agility IMO. both have counters (golem/cloyster) I put Lapras and Clampster together below the psychics and the sleepers (sing chansey is great in the mirror) and the rocks because I don't see them as being more consistent/integral to the over all strategy. They are not the best game 1 pokemon but they are excellent options.
I don't note kanga although it crossed my mind. As for Kingler, he is one mon I've never used strictly because I feel he is a novelty that doesn't bring anything to the table unique enough (crabhammer?) to make the list. Articuno is also notably missing but I feel Lapras/Cloyster are over all better choices in terms of stab ice. Tangela was also considered briefly for being the only non-poison grass type after egg.
Clefable, and the other fire types (rapidash, ninetales, arcanine, flareon) probably come in around there as well.
Fighting type never really get a good shot in the "meta"
Egg, Chansey, Snorlax are arguably the most versatile, so they are top three to me.
Aerodactyl is also notable as walling physlax in conjunction with cloyster walling tauros.
The real skill is High pressure switch predictions (show starmie, predict chansey simultaneous switch to lax)
show golem, predict egg switch, simultaneous switch to jynx/lapras
this is Why I'll frequently LEAD Jolteon when I use Zapdos. (trade secrets)
It's a good way to lul the opponent into blowing up golem after jolteon is dealt with.
kabutops is notable, raticate. . . .
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Post by cheese on Oct 5, 2014 8:27:58 GMT -8
It's interesting you would rate agility so highly. I usually use Light Screen Zapdos. Agility is obviously a good option for the 4th slot (I certainly prefer it to Reflect) but I wouldn't say it's a top reason to use Zapdos. Also the counter argument is not really valid. Zapdos is completely walled by Goldon, but Closyer only really acts as a check, not a counter. Do you really want your Cloyster being paralsam'd on the switch?
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Post by jorgen on Oct 5, 2014 8:55:55 GMT -8
Oh yay another one of these threads.
Not being sarcastic. Lists are fun.
1 - Tauros - Obviously a ridiculous ceiling, but he's also plenty more consistent than people give him credit for. He murders EVERYTHING, and most games feature a Tauros ditto at some point because that's usually your best way to deal with it. Not only is he mandatory on all teams, he's often his own most viable check. Seems like a pretty clear-cut #1 to me.
2 - Snorlax - This thing is consistently scary. He's basically a mid-game version of Tauros, at least in terms of what he's consistently able to do. Basically, he murders everything and his best counter is often ... himself! He lacks Tauros' BS 6-0 potential, which might seem to knock him down further, but Snorlax has a vast movepool to make his ceiling sky-high. He can be a traditional attacker, or something less consistent that can set up with Reflect/Amnesia to curbstomp an ill-prepared team, or just run Counter to fuck with opposing Snorlax, or Surf to mess with Rocks.
3 - Exeggutor - He's a combination of reliable tank with powerful wildcard moves in Sleep and Boom. You know exactly what he's doing every game, and his ceiling isn't very high, but game-in game-out he's the most reliable mon when it comes to doing what he needs to. I put him below the Normals because a best role-player in the history of ever is still just a role-player.
4 - Chansey - Chansey has a huge effect on the metagame, thereby solidifying its placement in the top 4. Ever wonder why Starmie is shit? Why anything remotely offensive needs at least one Physical move? This is why. That said, I find it to be the most inconsistent of the top 4, mostly because you don't always need something as overtly defensive as Chansey is. I also don't think its ceiling is that high, I mean it does nothing but preserve the status quo and maybe get a freeze. It doesn't even put away very many endgames, I mean Zam outstalls it and high-flying physical endgames don't see much use out of Chansey, let alone a Chansey more than likely crippled during the midgame. I guess it has Counter, Sing, and Reflect to mess with people, though.
5 - Lapras - YES #5 I'M PUTTING IT THERE. Lapras is damn scary, it's the main reason why I still consider Chansey mandatory and not just "a nice thing to have". It's an absolute tank with the best STAB in the game and the movepool to deal with anything that resists it.
6 - Alakazam - I tend to use it as my main Sleep Absorber because of its Speed and no-weak typing, so I may be undervaluing it. That said, the "mini-Chansey" description is apt when it isn't asleep, as it's really difficult (albeit, not impossible) to break on the Special side and requires Physical muscle to beat. The fact that it's "mini" Chansey, which I already kinda don't like, is a pretty obvious point against it, though.
7 - Rhydon - Physical Muscle. It's strong, a cool guy, and checks Lax (usually). Also prevents Zapdos from going hog wild.
8 - Starmie - Okay I can't keep shitting on it anymore, it's a very nice utility check for a ton of things (although you have to deal with 4mss and decide what you want it to check). Outside of filling all those defensive niches, though, it's pretty mediocre.
9 - Jynx - Best lead in the game. Following the lead game, it's pretty mediocre, but LK + fast (potentially freezy) Blizzards is a rough combination to fight.
10 - Slowbro - It can roll right over you. Sure, it's crit-vulnerable, and you can't really let it take hits before it sets up, but that ceiling is something special, man.
11 - Zapdos - Can't put him higher due to the hardwalls, but Rocks are not mandatory and there's ways to cheese them to death with stuff like Surf Snorlax. Without Rocks, Zapdos is probably the #5 over Lapras.
12 - Golem - This is quite a bit lower than Rhydon, but its Attack is quite a bit lower than Rhydon's, too. It's VERY significant. Golem gets Explosion, sure, but it's more a safety valve than anything else (which he's more likely to need because he just can't hit as hard). Using Golem is basically admitting you're not going to get things going with paralysis + QuakeSlide, and instead you're going to try for the Explosion on Chansey/Tauros. Which is the wiener's way out.
13 - Gengar - The worst of the "standard" mons. A good sleeper and niche counter (and backup check vs Lapras), thereby putting him above... everything else, but realistically, once you lay down Sleep, he's a step below every other standard mon with his mega-weak Explosion, super-situational Explosion absorption role, and amazing ability to be 2HKOed by everything but Chansey.
14 - Cloyster - The best Wrapper also has defensive utility in countering Lax.
15 - Dragonite - Pretty dangerous stuff. Wrappers are what make things like Snorlax somehow a liability, and Gengar's "niche-countering" ability an asset actually worth mentioning, and Dnite has the most dangerous sweeping potential.
16 - Victreebel - I call him the worst Wrapper because he isn't really threatening a sweep or doing anything important defensively. He's more a utility mon, using the threat of Wrap to force switches and thereby get double powder going.
17 - Jolteon - Can't take hits for beans (unless they're from Chansey), but it's kinda like a more crit-happy Zapdos that struggles more with Exeggutor in terms of attacking power. Its Speed, rather than typing or Double Kick, is what makes it good.
18 - Kingler - COOKIE. I love it. OHKOs Chansey with +2 Hyper Beam, OHKOs Rocks with CrabHammer (not to mention 3HKOes Lax and Tauros with it), and paras Starmie, who's otherwise a bitch and a half to deal with. Gengar's annoying, but it's not a total Persian situation here. Crabhammer 3HKOs if you have the patience for that.
19 - Hypno - Not really much to make it worth using over Zam outside of access to Hypnosis; the low speed and lack of Recover are huge turn-offs otherwise. Really, though, Hypno isn't a bad mon, it's just kind of redundant. Its main thing is being a physically bulky pure Psychic, which is nice, especially in a sleep absorber, but not really a highly demanded niche that would elevate it over the Zams/Chanseys/Eggs that people will already have.
20 - Articuno - Strongest Blizzard in the game. Definitely worth something, even if it's not difficult to wall.
21 - Kangaskhan - Kinda like a Tauros mixed with Snorlax attributes (namely in Surf/Counter) that's nonetheless way worse at taking Special Attacks. This is actually a pretty huge deal, as Tauros isn't exactly a special tank to begin with. Without this, it'd obviously be way higher.
22 - GYAAA - Ground immunity is fun to play with, and it's got a nice set of attacks to mess around with. Gyarados is just that, though; fun.
23 - Persian - I don't like it. At all. It's super speedy and outpaces Tauros, sure, but if you want something faster to take on Tauros, use Starmie. Persian's Slash is pretty strong, but it lacks the ability to crit or para or anything, and Persian doesn't exactly have good coverage options or defenses or tolerance for paralysis to accompany that strong Slash. It's something you have to hide to make use of a "pretty strong" move, but has no real ceiling above that. Just very underwhelming considering how you have to baby it.
24 - Poliwrath - Surprisingly effective. In a game with all these normals flying around, if your opponent is short on Psychics, this thing is going to mess them up real good. It's really nice in the endgame, as Submission hurries Normals into using Bslams, and Counter can punish the Bslams. Bonus points if they let go of Sleep Clause and you have a free Hypnosis to toss out. Surf is a nice way to grab free turns for it against Rocks.
25 - Flareon - That's right I said it. It's nice for making a liability out of Exeggutor, and Burns for Rocks + massive Attack for Chansey = surprisingly good mixed attacker. Plus there's Fire Spin to play with.
Anything below this point is pretty awful. I have to strain myself to try to find some good in them, and it's all even more mega-niche than the bottom of the list I have here. Fire Spinners just aren't good enough, nor is Tentacruel. Duggy/Dodrio are just kinda worthlessleads. Aerodactyl is garbage, Snorlax-walling notwithstanding. It relies on Sky Attack for damage ffs. Non-Kingler SDers are very mediocre because they simultaneously are more reliant on setup to do damage and don't get as many opportunities to set up. Stuff like Raichu and Clefable are very underwhelming mixed attackers.
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Post by piexplode on Oct 5, 2014 11:33:27 GMT -8
It's interesting you would rate agility so highly. I usually use Light Screen Zapdos. Agility is obviously a good option for the 4th slot (I certainly prefer it to Reflect) but I wouldn't say it's a top reason to use Zapdos. Also the counter argument is not really valid. Zapdos is completely walled by Goldon, but Closyer only really acts as a check, not a counter. Do you really want your Cloyster being paralsam'd on the switch? I use flash zapdos just in case ridiculous clutch endgame scenarios but I'm thinking running tbolt+thunder might be workable for a clutch scenario or maybe like hyper beam to help with chansey/zam I'll post my own ordered list some time.
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Post by jorgen on Oct 5, 2014 14:17:20 GMT -8
lol flash. You're better off with Reflect + Rest and hoping you stall out their Rock Slides without getting crit or hit by 3 straight high rolls. There's a ~25% chance that happens against Rhydon, dontcha know.
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Post by piexplode on Oct 5, 2014 18:48:12 GMT -8
I know reflect+rest>flash, but I want twave/tbolt/drill peck and I was like 4th move doesn't matter (much), flash YOLO
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Post by brookman on Oct 5, 2014 20:34:50 GMT -8
@jorge: I'm glad we can at least agree that hypno is 19th have our own opinions
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Post by marcoasd on Oct 5, 2014 23:25:56 GMT -8
Jorgen spoke the truth (I'd say jynx is a bit too high, but that's the only thing)... I like the way he puts Kangaskhan over Persian, and the only thing about the Kangaroo is that it doesn't fit well at all in a standard team as Tauros and Snorlax are around. It's outsped by Zapdos and Jynx (and obv Tauros), and that's pretty bad, not to mention that it can't use Blizzard to threaten both GolDon and Egg or for the desperate freeze attempt (and Surf is 2HKO on the rocks).
Despite being OHKO'd by Zam's CH Psychic, Kangaskhan would be very good itself, and its lower stats in comparison to Tauros are not making it that bad (maybe the speed, not the special in the end): it's all about its role. Kanga is a sweeper, read low staying power (can't switch into anything): I'd use two Snorlax on the same team, but I'd think twice about two Tauros.
This is the same reason that hurts other things like Victreebel and Kingler as well: I'd use them in a team without Tauros (and that's a bad point to start from).
Flareon would be a lot better if only it had Earthquake; Moltres can do something too, but yeah, Flareon isn't weak to blizzbolt. Arcanine is better imo, the only thing Flareon can claim is Fire Spin (higher attack won't do much, I'd take Arcanine's better CH rate/speed and defense vs Tauros/Lax).
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Post by magic9mushroom on Oct 6, 2014 4:12:48 GMT -8
Horizontal are iffy. Vertical are notable. 1. Exeggutor gets the top spot because of how incredibly reliable and effective it is. It basically guarantees sleep, so that's 1 kill. Then it's got an Explosion that none of the Normal-resists can switch into easily thanks to its incredibly-powerful STAB Psychic. That's probably another kill. 2 kills, most of the time, is bloody ridiculous. 2. Tauros is the best revenge-killer in the game, because Tauros has no safe counters and Tauros is fast. By being fast, it's also not vulnerable to being outmanoeuvred with Wrap the way the rest of the top four can be. And it can just randomly win games some of the time. I'm not as hot on it as most, but it's still bloody good. 3. Chansey is the meta. It does, however, have some matchup issues; most special attackers do have some way of potentially breaking it, whether that be a freeze, Psychic special-falls, Clamp, PP-stall, or Explosion. Nevertheless, it's reliable and it's not spectacularly easy to take advantage of. 4. Snorlax is great thanks to STAB on Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Selfdestruct, great bulk, and a wide movepool. However, it does have some issues getting its Selfdestruct off safely, since its own STAB is Normal-type and it can't carry scary coverage for both Gengar and GolDon without giving up Hyper Beam. It's also almost completely shut down by Cloyster, and struggles greatly against Reflect users thanks to its abysmal crit rate. Nevertheless, it's great. 5. Starmie refuses to die. It's one of a very select club that can switch into STAB Blizzards, and has a very large assortment of ways to screw up almost anything between its decent STABs, its ridiculous crit rate, its Chansey-like bulk against anything not named Thunderbolt or Razor Leaf, and its access to Blizzard and Thunderbolt for coverage. Along with Chansey, it's one of the big gatekeepers of OU relevance. It does have one of the worst cases of four-moveslot syndrome, though it typically only gives up one or two targets whatever its pick. Also struggles against the other Recover users, though that doesn't stop it from checking half the meta. 6. Alakazam's not as good as it looks. It beats every other Pokemon 1v1 (except Slowbro), but in practice it's either going to struggle with running out of PP (if it runs Reflect) or with physicals (if it runs Seismic Toss). While its STAB is powerful, it's hitting everything neutrally or worse except Gengar, and Alakazam has difficulty switching into physical attacks or STAB special attacks and then accomplishing something before being critted/frozen/FPed and dying (an astonishing variety of attacks 3HKO Alakazam). Nonetheless, it's good. 7. Golem only really does three things. It walls Zapdos, it makes opponents nervous about Exploding, and then it Explodes itself. Its stats and typing don't let it do anything else. However, it is quite the champion at fulfilling those roles, and in particular its Explosion backed by STAB Earthquake gives it reliability that Rhydon lacks. 8. Cloyster's one tough nut to crack. It can switch into Ice moves without a care, it completely shuts down Snorlax and the Rocks, and it's got favourable matchups against Exeggutor and Tauros as well. Its Special isn't that hot, but it doesn't have to be; it's got a 4x resistance to one of the two common special attacks, and STAB Blizzard off 268 Special still hits as hard as Exeggutor's Psychic. And then it's got Clamp, also known as "the most annoying move ever". Countering Cloyster with basically anything not named Starmie is just asking to get Clamped and countered in turn without being able to attack on the switch. Cloyster can take apart any team that's lost its fast specials with contemptuous ease unless it's paralysed first. And if it does get paralysed? It's the only Water to get Explosion, so odds are you're STILL losing something unless you have Gengar. The biggest issue Cloyster has is that Starmie, and to some extent Thunderbolt Tauros, shut it down almost completely and as such it can never be a staple. Outside of that, though, it's gold. 9. Slowbro's well-known for being able to set up and sweep whole teams when the conditions are right. When the conditions aren't right, it usually still does some work by forcing Starmie to eat a Thunder Wave or forcing an Explosion. It does have the issue of being really awkward to use since it doesn't want to switch in and out a lot. Still, TobyBro is scary. 10. Lapras is the classic "jack of all trades, but master of none". On the plus side, it's the only Ice-type to get Thunderbolt, it's quite bulky on both sides, and it has quite a few interesting utility moves. The problem is that it doesn't Recover, doesn't Explode, and can't usually force through Chansey by itself. It also doesn't like switching into much besides Ice-type attacks, as while it's very bulky, it still takes serious damage from STAB Psychics and Body Slams and can't use Rest as effectively as Slowbro. 11. Rhydon is Golem's big brother, except that it doesn't learn Explosion and loses the 1v1. Its peak is higher than Golem's, as it becomes rather scary when all its opponents are paralysed, but all too often it gets one or two Earthquakes off before being shredded by Tauros or something, whereas Golem can at least Explode. 12. Gengar walls a very long list of things with Normal + Special coverage; however, it also gets torn apart by a fairly long list of things thanks to having no STAB and two common weaknesses. Relies heavily on Explosion prediction, or on opposing team choices, to be viable, but is invaluable in the right situations. 13. Dragonite can pull wins out of its butt if it gets Agility up and doesn't miss the wrong Wrap. The problem is that most teams are built in such a way that it takes considerable skill to get a free turn for Agility, and that even if you succeed in getting Dragonite set up bad luck could ruin all your work. Or they bring Gengar and Dragonite sucks that game. Amazing when it works, but all too often it doesn't. 14. Zapdos is reduced to a lure if your opponent has Golem or Rhydon. Since Starmie's never switching into Zapdos it can use Toxic effectively against the Rocks, and the Rocks lose so many matchups that luring them is worthwhile, but still it's not accomplishing much in those games. When they're gone, it's dangerous, but still not overpowering; it has a rather difficult time breaking Chansey and Reflect Alakazam, its Speed is awkward in the OU metagame, and its Ice weakness makes it very hard to pull off Rest - even with a screen - or to switch in and out a lot. It does make a great double-switch on Cloyster and Victreebel, but those Pokemon are almost always run alongside a Rock for this exact reason. 15. Jynx is possibly the best lead in RBY OU, as it can sleep Starmie and Alakazam leads safely and makes it very awkward for opposing sleepers to switch in thanks to its STABs. Unfortunately, it has almost no use after sleep's landed on both sides due to its extreme frailty and lack of recovery. 16. Victreebel is very annoying to face, much like Dragonite, thanks to its STAB Razor Leaf, Stun Spore, and Wrap. It is, however, extremely frail; it's 2HKOed by all STAB Psychics and even some non-STAB Blizzards, it's only slightly physically bulkier than Chansey, and it absolutely cannot take paralysis. It can also run Swords Dance for a surprise, but it's still very frail. 17. Jolteon has two main advantages over Zapdos; it outspeeds everything and it's not weak to Ice. These give it much more certain victories against Starmie and the Ice-types. Unfortunately for Jolteon, it's 2HKOed by all the Pokemon with physical STAB, it still gets walled by the Rock/Ground types, and its coverage moves are much harder to use since they deal negligible damage to anything but their intended target. 18. Articuno is largely outclassed by Lapras, as Lapras gets Thunderbolt and Body Slam and resists Ice while Articuno doesn't. Articuno's greater Special does, however, give it a 2HKO on Tauros, while its Ground immunity may be useful (particularly alongside Gengar). 19. Persian is a decent Normal sweeper with STAB Slash, BubbleBeam and Thunderbolt alongside an enormous Speed. The problem is that it's outclassed by Tauros and thus only useful either as a backup to Tauros or in certain specialty situations (such as dealing with Reflect users). ---horizontal ranks stop here; below here anything in the same group is roughly equivalent in my eyes--- 20-26. These Pokemon aren't bad per se, it's just that there are generally better options. These Pokemon have some sort of theoretical micro-niche, but in practice are crap. No. Don't use these in RBY OU. Ever. If I see you using these I will assume that either you suck or you're mocking me. There is no other reason to use them.
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Post by jorgen on Oct 6, 2014 5:27:44 GMT -8
Hey man Flareon is a lot better than you'd think. And Golduck gets Amnesia, surely that puts him on par with... Parasect?
Not like it really matters, both those bottom tiers could be merged into "shit tier" and nobody would bat an eye.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Oct 6, 2014 16:04:15 GMT -8
The distinction between the bottom two is more about "do they have some sort of unique gimmick that creates an actual rationale for using them" than about being good per se. Poliwrath distinguishes itself from Slowbro much better than Golduck does, because of Hypnosis/STAB Submission/Counter. Flareon doesn't have much besides Quick Attack as an actual reason to use it (and even then, Raticate's better at that and has a more reliable "go away Rocks").
Parasect might have to go down, though, I'll think about it. I put it there because of that stupid Spore/Swords Dance/Leech Life gimmick (which can actually be a problem in some very rare endgame situations).
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Post by piexplode on Oct 7, 2014 7:22:48 GMT -8
I think I've run Parasect in a joke team versus marco where I filled it with crazy shit which was fun. Tried vaporeon out the other day. It sucked, seems like lapras outclasses, although acid armour seems sexual. Lack fo freeze immunity/light screen/tbolt=outclassed. Flareon seems fun with its great attacking stats, seems to me like a tauros you could use if a team were more heavily paralyzed than tauros needs it, but having only fire blast to help get through rocks kinda sucks (although it's cool versus para'd eggy.. but egg'd usually have boomed by the time you'd want it in anyway).. too much issues with waters perhaps but the attack stat is fab. It just seems like a worse tauros tho.
~still writing my list~
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Post by brookman on Oct 7, 2014 15:15:42 GMT -8
Parasect basically gets ohko by everything and never really gets a good shot to even try using spore.
Dugtrio is under-rated by the lot of you IMO. boasting speed and crit rate to match zam with stab EQ. Easily baits the switch to egg which can be out predixed with a quick jynx/lapras switch.
I think we can all agree that in OU Poliwrath is much momre versatile than Golduck.
In UU it doesn't matter because there's no high special high speed bolt/beamers running around resisting water.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Oct 7, 2014 18:54:32 GMT -8
I think I've run Parasect in a joke team versus marco where I filled it with crazy shit which was fun. Tried vaporeon out the other day. It sucked, seems like lapras outclasses, although acid armour seems sexual. Lack fo freeze immunity/light screen/tbolt=outclassed. Flareon seems fun with its great attacking stats, seems to me like a tauros you could use if a team were more heavily paralyzed than tauros needs it, but having only fire blast to help get through rocks kinda sucks (although it's cool versus para'd eggy.. but egg'd usually have boomed by the time you'd want it in anyway).. too much issues with waters perhaps but the attack stat is fab. It just seems like a worse tauros tho. ~still writing my list~ Flareon gets Quick Attack, so it can deal with stuff on 10-15% HP no matter how fast they are. But way too situational, and as I said Raticate's still better. Vaporeon's only niche is Haze. Which isn't very useful in OU since there's only one common setup 'mon and you're more likely to undo a sleep or freeze than actually do something worthwhile with it (it can unparalyse an opposing Chansey, though). Parasect basically gets ohko by everything and never really gets a good shot to even try using spore. Articuno and Zapdos do, and Lapras/Jynx have a chance to. That's it, though. STAB Rock Slides and Cloyster's STAB Blizzard don't OHKO, and nobody uses Fire or Poison attacks in OU. Dugtrio doesn't lure Egg all that well. Tauros/Snorlax/Zapdos/Lapras/Slowbro/Articuno/Cloyster all switch in just fine. Dugtrio sucks unless Fissure's allowed.
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Post by piexplode on Oct 7, 2014 20:22:23 GMT -8
My list:
1 Tauros King of RBY, only excuse not to run it is dnite. Simply the threateningness of it is amazing, but you could justify not running it on a stall-style team.
2 Snorlax Still uncontroversial, I feel Surf is underrated on it though. A late game lax = perf, and some games I adjust my strategy to roll out with that.
3 rhydon controversial #3. Personally I feel that walling zapdos (kinda nice)/soaking booms (eeeee zzzzzz)/hitting hard with earthquake makes it fabulous. More or less only bring it out early game to soak the boomz. Late game can also be a fun sweeper if you get a couple of right mons para'd, can't duel with tauros/some lax which is its downfall, but really cool mon.
4 alakazam more controversy, but I feel it has these things over chansey: Can absorb sleep just as well; Outspeeds and can clutch para so much; Can force specfalls and force switches allowing the physicals in to play. Most games will sack sleep and has decent chance to wake up. Only disadvantage vs chansey is no sing but so long as u have something else to cause specfalls it doesn't matter, tobybro works, eggy works, mie works, etc. Furthermore as a lead I find it more consistent that mie since you have a ~20% of dieing turn 1 to a gar tbolt. My favourite (but not exclusive by any means) lead due to its consistency. Being a strong force versus wrap is useful too.
5 chansey my favourite sleeper. really. Suprise value's kinda irrelevant to that, even missing a suprise sing forces a play and if you can put yourself into the mind of your opponent it works in your favour. Also stops wars of the freezey type which seem to me to be too risky, I'd rather just put m foe's chansey out of the game as early as possible to avoid risking losing my own. Pair it with an aggressive psychic type (slowbro mostly but I guess also zam or jynx) or an ice type (cos freeze immune, so probably lappy/cuno/jynx) in case u get slept or sleep something else or w/e you can avoid the freeze wars for too long and get a good bit of agressive playing going on. obviously if ur a defensively oriented player (I personally think it makes you more vulnerable to the probability of the game in RBY if you try and stall it out for longer in /some/ ways) then chansey is golden. good mon, works differently depending on how u play.
6 starmie whilst I'm starting to love it less as a lead as 20%ish to lose to gar straight off is pretty lame (I don't know how good it is for gar to go for a tbolt but golden gyara did it vs me and I got assraped cos of it).. nice as a hard counter to cloyster, sexy speed means a guarantee'd para. basically outspeeds all non-jolteon so easiest chance of using recover. Okay answer to slowbro and lapras too. Fine enough to absorb sleep (although it only really wakes in rare endgame situations really) but when it doesn't it's quite a bonus. Like a zam that handles water types better and outspeeds zam but hates tbolt from gar/lappy/starmie all things that it isn't too afraid of.
7 exeggutor best rock check but I mean whenever I play it it always explodes on my rock and nothing else so w/e. I always feel it wants stun spore+double edge/egg bomb+mega drain all at once, not forgetting BOOM and sleepybyes and psychic.. still, strong defensive niche, but I feel the bark is more than its bite, it's not as good when you realise how limited it is. Whilst you can go agressive vs chansey with specfalls icebeam hurts and really u just wanna boom it outta the way so I mean it has like no utility apart from takin down chansey so I guess tehre's that. Not a big fan of it rn but sure it'll change, ebbs and flows ykno
8 slowbro anything that makes chansey eat a twave has gotta be good right? Can take psychics and not squishy on the physical side either. Can lure booms or be foddered to them if you feel you can't make a sweep with it that game. Always useful cos any psychic resist/ice resist/twave user/not squishy is always gonna have some impact on a game. Not much love as a sweeper in and of itself but something that can soak hits with a rarer ice resist rather than elec resist (lookin at u eggy) gives it quite a bit of value, e.g. can come in after jynx has given sleep. obviously a lot of competition with other pokemon, but can work on a hyper-aggressive team (rare in RBY but on the most hyper offensive team that you could probably build it's definitely a mon I would use on it to force starmie to take para, and soak the odd psychic type attack)
9 lapras the list makes less sense at this point but hey ho. Lapras is good.
What do u run on this thing srsly I can't find a good analysis on this.
10 jynx most consistent sleep lead. Can soak the odd psychic. Good offensive typing.
11 zapdos actually good atm cos double water is popular. Good on a highly offensive team to scout the build. Can clutch para vs tauros and hits stuff fairly hard without any 1 mon walling it too drastically.
12 victreebell kind of love it and placing it super high because. Double powder + Wrap + Razor Leaf = Useful aggressive team player, use in place of egg on teams where aggressiveness>defensive synergy. SD+H Beam+Body Slam+Razor Leaf = Manly. Actually pretty cool cos it fucks with people predicting the first. O THAT'S A NICE PARA'D CHANSEY U GOT THERE. <3 goin thru a phaze rite now me an my yello plant :*
13 cloyster kind of messed up by mie, but apart from that the aggressive cool stuff that m9m said basically sums up the lushness. my order 9-13 is kinda shaky but w.e if something in this list is a bit misordered it's not a big deal.
14 golem - only really use when u need an aggressive 3rd boom/threat of boom/potentially running non-standard lax. Still a good mon, boomer, boom absorber, outspeeds rhydon, but less power and bulk is noticable.
15 gengar why would u use this when u have rocks to take booms lool. Anyway it has so many risks with it n shit I'm not sure what to really think of it, it certainly changes the nature of the game (and changes the set popularities). I know there's love/hate with this mon, I think the best reason to run it is anti-wrap
16 dragonite not sure what I think of it yet. Can be hard to fit. Fucked by gaygar. How do you build around that? Main issue is it's a possible tauros replacement but idk has issues breaking stuff when it's not replacing tauros too.
17 parasect cos I want 2 get discussion goin cos my list will fuk u up. NEWays. As a lead u r 1] hot vs zam 2] take sleep vs gaygar and it kinda can' t do anythin better to you and u kind of are a threat if u spore+stun spore like a bloke. VS Mie --> chansey sing ez. VS Jynx-->mie on the probable blizz (if it's sleep idgaf) twave on the kiss or if ur manly double back to sect let it sleep and then u have healthy starmie. Risky if they realise how baws sect is 2 lead.
18 jolteon dis ting has a use rite? I don't actually know what it does. ;-; I mean ur like a zapdos that's worse vs chansey but better vs rocks and mie but less bulky but eq weak instead of rock slide weak. It's different but only the high speed makes it a sexy proposition.
19 articuno well it's a fuckin nuke and freeze immune so kinda cool. A special that can't break through chansey will always have issues tho.
20 dodrio well I guess it's fun it the rocks go down and u bring it lategame but doesn't lax do something similar but slower.. or tauros??
rest I haven't used but maybe comments persian dugtrio hypno - cool mon but can't seem to fit in a build charizard moltres ninetales poliwrath venusaur - not as unpredictable as bell (and u use a non-egg grass only on aggressive teams anyway imo) so kinda harder to justiy but I guess has reasons to use. Outspeeding cloy is undeniably cool. kingler
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Post by balthios on Oct 7, 2014 21:55:18 GMT -8
Here is my list. I agree with magic9mushroom for the most part, although I have Jynx and Zapdos a bit higher up.
1. Tauros 2. Exeggutor 3. Snorlax 4. Chansey (Gap here) 5. Alakazam 6. Starmie 7. Slowbro 8. Lapras 9. Jynx 10. Zapdos 11. Rhydon 12. Golem (Gap here) 13. Gengar 14. Cloyster 15. Dragonite 16. Victreebel 17. Jolteon 18. Articuno 19. Hypno 20. Persian 21. Kingler
Then, other viable pokemon in no particular order: Clefable Kangaskhan Poliwrath Raichu Sandslash Moltres Dodrio Dugtrio Venusaur Raticate
I don't have much experience with Gyarados, Flareon, or Kabutops, but I could see them here too.
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Post by CrapAtRBY on Jan 5, 2015 10:22:17 GMT -8
I got bored and made this. I doubt people will actually use it but once I figure out how to sort the mons by tier and make it possible to toggle each tier on and off I will, right now it requires an inordinate amount of matches.
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Jan 5, 2015 10:52:49 GMT -8
That was surprisingly fun.
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Post by piexplode on Jan 5, 2015 16:29:44 GMT -8
I think I'll wait for version 2, I keep making muck up (and I don't know BL well at all o3o) but I sort of have an idea in NU now
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Post by kel9901 on Jan 5, 2015 18:39:51 GMT -8
I got bored and made this. I doubt people will actually use it but once I figure out how to sort the mons by tier and make it possible to toggle each tier on and off I will, right now it requires an inordinate amount of matches. you spelt Primeape wrong lol (Primepae)
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Post by jorgen on Jan 5, 2015 20:18:13 GMT -8
Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee have the wrong sprites :x
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Post by Raish on Jan 5, 2015 21:13:16 GMT -8
Yeah that was fun! It didn't get everything right (put Golem 5 higher than Rhydon when I prefer Rhydon) just based on what got matched vs what, but I think if you did this 10 times and averaged the results then manually changed anything that seemed like an obvious mistake to you, it would be a pretty good indication of where you stand. Thanks for making it!
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Post by froggy25 on Jan 6, 2015 3:41:01 GMT -8
That was interesting to do, thanks for making it.
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Post by redemption on Jan 6, 2015 18:29:38 GMT -8
Snorlax Tauros Chansey Exeggutor Alakazam Golem/Rhydon Jynx Gengar Starmie Persian SlowBro Cloyster Lapras Zapdos Articuno Jolteon Dragonite Victribel Kingler Dugtrio Hypno
Most people have this super terrible view of Persian, I would actually argue persian and the other two offensive normals make an amazing aggro team. Persian is argueably a better revenger than tauros. Granted Gengar but still amazing.
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Post by Ortheore on Jan 8, 2015 16:56:42 GMT -8
Nice work this is pretty neat!
My results were actually pretty accurate as well I think. I guess I'd normally rank Bro a bit higher and definitely Bel>Cuno, otherwise it's not too bad
Tauros Exeggutor Lax Chansey ======= Zam Star Lapras Golem Rhydon ======= Jynx Zapdos Dragonite Gengar Slowbro ======= Jolteon Persian Cloyster Articuno Bel Hypno
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Post by jorgen on Jan 8, 2015 18:35:09 GMT -8
Rank Character 1 Tauros 2 Snorlax 3 Chansey 4 Exeggutor 5 Alakazam 6 Lapras 7 Starmie 8 Jynx 9 Rhydon 10 Golem 11 Gengar 12 Slowbro 13 Zapdos 14 Cloyster 15 Dragonite 16 Persian 17 Jolteon 18 Victreebel 19 Kingler 20 Hypno 21 Articuno 22 Gyarados 23 Tangela 24 Kangaskhan 25 Dodrio 26 Flareon 27 Moltres 28 Aerodactyl 29 Venusaur 30 Golduck 31 Sandslash 32 Clefable 33 Dugtrio 34 Raichu 35 Poliwrath 36 Tentacruel 37 Ninetales 38 Lickitung 39 Charizard 40 Nidoking 41 Raticate 42 Hitmonlee 43 Farfetch'd 44 Machamp 45 Vaporeon 46 Omastar 47 Beedrill 48 Kabutops 49 Arbok 50 Dewgong 51 Mr. Mime 52 Muk 53 Rapidash 54 Weezing 55 Marowak 56 Onix 57 Arcanine 58 Electrode 59 Vileplume 60 Blastoise 61 Pinsir 62 Nidoqueen 63 Electabuzz 64 Magmar 65 Porygon 66 Fearow 67 Venomoth 68 Wigglytuff 69 Parasect 70 Magneton 71 Primeape 72 Seadra 73 Scyther 74 Pidgeot 75 Seaking 76 Butterfree 77 Hitmonchan 78 Ditto 79 Golbat
Not bad. Only thing that seems particularly wrong is that 13 seems awfully low for Zapdos, but in all honestly I don't know if it belongs higher than anything above than it. I'm finding the just-below-viable stuff interesting. Who knew I had such respect for Tangela? I'm regretting my absolute bottom though. In particular, I didn't give Pidgeot enough of a fair shake. Sure, it's horribly outclassed by mons that already aren't good, but STAB Hyper Beam should probably put it up 5 spots or so.
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Post by piexplode on Jan 9, 2015 12:02:05 GMT -8
Whilst I agre with your kingler>articuno.. I don't see others doing so lol
lol ditto>golbat your beedrill is insanely high why are lickitung and aerodactyl so high?
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