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Post by piexplode on Oct 25, 2014 21:04:15 GMT -8
I've been informed some players have played RBY monotype before. My thoughts recently have been that fairly obviously, some types are far beyond others. My next thought was maybe that you could organise the types into categories and that this would essentially represent the ability levels of the types. So these are my categories, post your thoughts:
Category 1 [Normal/Psychic]
[Best Pokemon] Normal - Chansey, Tauros, Snorlax; Psychic - Alakazam, Starmie, Jynx, Exeggutor, Hypno, Slowbro
Category 2 [Water/Electric/Ice]
[Best Pokemon] Water - Lapras, Starmie, Slowbro, Cloyster; Electric - Jolteon, Zapdos, Electrode, Raichu; Ice - Lapras, Jynx, Articuno, Cloyster (but only 5 pokemon ~_~)
Category 3 [Rock/Ground/Fighting/Poison/Fire/Grass/Flying]
[Best Pokemon] Rock - Golem, Rhydon; Ground - Golem, Rhydon, Nidoking/queen; Fighting - Poliwrath, Machamp; Poison - Gengar, Nidos; Fire - Flareon, Ninetales, Moltres; Grass - Exeggutor, Victreebel, Venusaur; Flying - Zapdos, Articuno
Category 4 [Bug/Ghost/Dragon]
[Best Pokemon] Bug - Parasect, Venomoth, Butterfree; Dragon - Dragonite; Ghost - Gengar
I don't feel my categorisation is right, but it should open up some discussion.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Oct 26, 2014 1:21:12 GMT -8
I've been informed some players have played RBY monotype before. My thoughts recently have been that fairly obviously, some types are far beyond others. My next thought was maybe that you could organise the types into categories and that this would essentially represent the ability levels of the types. So these are my categories, post your thoughts: Category 1 [Normal/Psychic] [Best Pokemon] Normal - Chansey, Tauros, Snorlax; Psychic - Alakazam, Starmie, Jynx, Exeggutor, Hypno, Slowbro Category 2 [Water/Electric/Ice] [Best Pokemon] Water - Lapras, Starmie, Slowbro, Cloyster; Electric - Jolteon, Zapdos, Electrode, Raichu; Ice - Lapras, Jynx, Articuno, Cloyster (but only 5 pokemon ~_~) Category 3 [Rock/Ground/Fighting/Poison/Fire/Grass/Flying] [Best Pokemon] Rock - Golem, Rhydon; Ground - Golem, Rhydon, Nidoking/queen; Fighting - Poliwrath, Machamp; Poison - Gengar, Nidos; Fire - Flareon, Ninetales, Moltres; Grass - Exeggutor, Victreebel, Venusaur; Flying - Zapdos, Articuno Category 4 [Bug/Ghost/Dragon] [Best Pokemon] Bug - Parasect, Venomoth, Butterfree; Dragon - Dragonite; Ghost - Gengar I don't feel my categorisation is right, but it should open up some discussion. Mewtwo and Mew are the two best Psychics. Persian/Kangaskhan/Clefable are probably the best Normals after those three - you might want Dodrio for Drill Peck idk. Electrode is garbage, Magneton and Electabuzz are much better. You're still going to use Electrode because there are literally no other fully-evolved Electric Pokemon, but it's straight garbage. Since there is literally only one Ice monotype team you might as well note Dewgong. Gyarados belongs on a Water monotype team, great stats. Flying is DEFINITELY tier 2. Dodrio/Gyarados/Articuno/Zapdos/Moltres/Dragonite is scary as fuck. Kabutops is clearly the third-best Rock, and Aero's not that bad in Monotype (avoids getting 6-0ed by Venusaur, for one thing). Sandslash is probably the next-best Ground. Every Fighting not named Poliwrath is garbage. Poison also has Victreebel and Tentacruel; it borders on too powerful for tier 3 thanks to its immense variety. Charizard is better than Ninetales and Flareon; Swords Dance and Earthquake are great. You're still obviously going to use them, though. |
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Isa
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Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Oct 26, 2014 3:39:11 GMT -8
Normal: Tauros/Chansey/Snorlax/Persian/Clefable/Kangaskhan/Dodrio, remove one and use the others. Clefable is good because of Sing, you'll probably not want Chansey to use that.
Psychic: Alakazam/Exeggutor/Starmie/Jynx/Slowbro/Hypno. Completely lacks physical offense but has massive special bulk. Hypno can run Reflect/Rest/Meditate/Body Slam if you want physical presence.
Water: Starmie/Lapras/Slowbro/Cloyster/Gyarados/Tentacruel. Diverse, lacks physical STAB but has high offensive stats on both sides of the spectrum and can sleep with Lapras. Poliwrath is an option.
Flying: Zapdos/Articuno/Moltres/Dragonite/Gyarados/Dodrio. Raw power.
Poison: Gengar/Victreebel/Nidoking/Tentacruel/Venusaur/Haunter, Nidoqueen? Secretly a great type. Hits very hard on the special side of the spectrum but still has STAB Earthquake and Swords Dance. No issues with sleeping either. Ruined by BoltBeam though.
Ground: Golem/Rhydon/Nidoking/Dugtrio/Nidoqueen/Sandslash. Poor special bulk, few special attacks - ruined by Reflect or a Grass type (or even a faster water/ice type).
Electric: Zapdos/Jolteon/Raichu/Electabuzz/Magneton/Electrode. Raichu and Electabuzz are the only ones with play vs. Ground types and everyone except Zapdos has issues breaking past Psychic types.
Fire: Moltres/Charizard/Ninetales/Arcanine/Flareon/Magmar...but really, this is just bad.
Fighting: Machamp/Poliwrath/Hitmonlee/Primeape/Hitmonchan/Machoke (rip). Wins vs. Normal on the condition that Dodrio is out of the picture, which is actually a fairly impressive feat. Otherwise, trash.
Rock: Golem/Rhydon/Kabutops/Omastar/Graveler (rip)/Onix or Rhyhorn (double rip). One dimensional, poor STABs and terrible speed.
Grass: Exeggutor/Victreebel/Venusaur/Tangela/Parasect/Vileplume. Trash. Three good Pokémon and three worthless. At least Victreebel can forego his powders. Doesn't autowin vs. Water because Grass STAB sucks (bar Razor Leaf) and Water has two neutrals with LOTS of Ice Beam/Blizzard.
Ice: Articuno/Lapras/Cloyster/Jynx/Dewgong. Would have been good if they literally weren't a five Pokémon squad.
Bug:
Ghost/Dragon: lolnope
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Post by piexplode on Oct 26, 2014 11:32:48 GMT -8
Thanks for the information.. I put bug with dragon/ghost since even though those 2 literally are teams of 3 pokemon, with bug you have access to umm.. sleep moves? As a redeeming feature. Although, ghost pretty much autowins versus dragon so idk.. probably best to just lump them in the bottom category and not expect them to be used.
Question: Should Mew/Mewtwo be banned as in standard play? I made the list under that assumption. (what about only banning Mewtwo even?)
It's very hard to put this together.. some thoughts on trying to tier it?
Normal and Psychic are both insanely awesome; Normal auto-loses to fighting without dodrio almost, but Dodrio's clearly a great option in an environment with fighting around. Psychic seems to have huge issues with chansey on the normal side (unless Mew is available - although don't forget egg) but otherwise seems pretty unstoppable. Water - has probably the best balance of any other type - 2 psychics, options for sleep and explosion from lapras and cloyster, but does seem to get fairly destroyed by electric. Flying - as has been mentioned, a lot of power behind it and it's really good. However, it does seem to me to be a level below Normal and Psychic, but I think it can take on every other type for at least evens (versus rock, tops/star have issues with zapdos, the rest with articuno, dnite, gyarados.. which actually gets tbolt so could be rather fun). Poison - It seems to me to be a secret good type, but can't take on flying (at least not very easily), Water (starmie is a huge threat, as is lapras..) .. seems to me to be eve with Ice (Jynx is huge but only 5 mons and one is dewgong), Electric (good odds due to Nidos and sleep), Rocks (instalose bar like aero to venusaur, just for starters) Grounds (fairly even), whilst fire, fighting, and grass are all not as good. So maybe something like..
Normal/Psychic
Water/Flying
Poison/Ice/Electric/Ground
Rock/Grass/Fighting/Fire/Bug/Ghost/Dragon
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Post by magic9mushroom on Oct 26, 2014 14:01:13 GMT -8
Normal and Psychic are both insanely awesome; Normal auto-loses to fighting without dodrio almost, but Dodrio's clearly a great option in an environment with fighting around. Reflect/Counter on Snorlax or Chansey could help there. Zam forces Chansey out. Slowbro can beat Chansey. Hypno has that crazy Meditate set. Light Screen on Chansey does cockblock the first two though. Flying indeed isn't on par with Normal or Psychic. But it's only one tier down from them. Nidoking can go toe-to-toe with Zapdos and Dragonite, Tentacruel makes fun of Moltres and Articuno doesn't like it either. Then Gengar sweep. Not Lapras. Victreebel/Venusaur/Gengar all beat it head-to-head. Psychic Starmie crucifies the team though. Poison's probably on par with Water and Flying IMO. Ghost and Dragon are a level unto themselves; any other team in that tier would shred them easily except maybe Fighting vs. Ghost (even then there's still Seismic Toss and Earthquake). Isa Tangela isn't trash, it's got Growth and it's almost as bulky as Egg. |
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Post by piexplode on Oct 26, 2014 22:26:57 GMT -8
I can agree with poison being on par with flying, but poison is crucified by water as you say. Could flying maybe drop? Also I don't see how Ghost instantly loses to bug, or does dragon.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Oct 26, 2014 23:19:59 GMT -8
I can agree with poison being on par with flying, but poison is crucified by water as you say. Could flying maybe drop? Also I don't see how Ghost instantly loses to bug, or does dragon. Poison isn't crucified by Water, it's crucified specifically by Psychic Starmie. If you can get Starmie out of the way (or it doesn't have Psychic) Waters really do not like Bel/Saur's Razor Leafs and Gar's Thunderbolts. Ghost probably loses to Bug (admittedly not guaranteed) because it's 2v5 after sleep and Venomoth/Butterfree have Psychic while Pinsir has SToss. Parasect has Dig, too. Dragon gets rekt because it's 2v6 after sleep and Dnite probably won't be able to pull Agility without being Stun Spored or Toxiced. SD Scyther mops up. |
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Post by piexplode on Oct 27, 2014 7:30:24 GMT -8
Do you have any idea how they'd get starmie out of the way? The raw power of psychic makes me feel that it's just too much of an advantage, unless there is a decent amount of luck.
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Post by longfellow on Oct 27, 2014 16:12:20 GMT -8
Is it so clear that Fighting has the advantage against Normal? Maybe Fighting could bring some Counter tricksies, but it seems to me that Submission is just not strong or accurate enough even with type advantage. 80 base power with type advantage and 80% accuracy averages out to 128 bp, which once you add the recoil isn't going to look much better than BSlam's 85 BP without recoil (and with 30% para). IIRC without Counter, Machamp loses the 1v1 against Tauros.
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Post by jorgen on Oct 27, 2014 18:23:22 GMT -8
No, it isn't obvious at all. Not only is Tauros able to 2HKO fighters faster than they can 2HKO him, there's also Snorlax who can trade or use a Counter of his own; Chansey who can use Psychic or (more conventionally) Counter, plus Twave if need be; Clefable, who does much of the same; Kangaskhan, who can do the same as Tauros and toss out a Counter to boot. I'm not even counting Dodrio, who could easily be replaced by Persian, and that's still a pretty tricky matchup for Fighting.
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Post by piexplode on Oct 27, 2014 19:22:20 GMT -8
Either way fighting is clearly at the bottom with fire, rock, grass imo. Opinion?
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Post by magic9mushroom on Oct 27, 2014 19:45:59 GMT -8
Do you have any idea how they'd get starmie out of the way? The raw power of psychic makes me feel that it's just too much of an advantage, unless there is a decent amount of luck. Victreebel uses Stun Spore + Razor Leaf, dies. Now Starmie is paralysed and in OHKO range from the whole team; no longer a threat. Obviously, this isn't going to happen every game, but Monotype's very nature means that perfectly 50% team matchups aren't necessary. jorgen Tauros doesn't 2HKO Machamp or Poliwrath. It's not an autowin by any stretch, though. |
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