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Post by magic9mushroom on Dec 28, 2014 0:00:20 GMT -8
Preserving this for posterity since the chatbox is ephemeral. Crystal_ has discovered two major inaccuracies in how simulator RBY has been played for the last decade. 1) If you use a stat-affecting move while facing down a Pokemon with a stat-lowering status condition (paralysis or burn) that does not affect the opponent's condition-affected stat, the reduction is compounded. So, if your paralysed Slowbro faces down a paralysed Tauros, and Slowbro uses Amnesia, Tauros' Speed will be quartered again (making Slowbro faster) until Tauros switches out. This does not work if the stat-affecting move directly targets the same stat as is affected by the status condition (using String Shot on a paralysed opponent, or Growl on a burned opponent would not cause this compounding, although using Agility or Growl against a paralysed opponent would work since Agility only affects your Speed and Growl only affects their Attack). It also does not work if "Nothing happened!" i.e. if the stat is already maximised or minimised. 2) It's generally known that Ice-types cannot be frozen by Ice-type moves and that Fire-types cannot be burned by Fire-type moves. It turns out that this immunity to type-matched secondary status also applies to secondary-effect paralysis. This means Body Slam cannot paralyse Normal-types, ThunderShock/ThunderPunch/Thunderbolt/Thunder cannot paralyse Electric-types, and Lick cannot paralyse Ghost-types. Note that status-only moves are not affected by this immunity; Thunder Wave can paralyse Electric-types (though not Ground-types), Stun Spore can paralyse Grass-types and Glare can paralyse Normal-types. It's only secondary paralysis from damaging moves that is affected by this. Also, this does not apply to poison (Poison-types are immune to all poison, and Bug-types are not immune to Twineedle poison) or stat-lowering secondary effects (Psychic-types can have their Special lowered by Psychic, Water-types can have their Speed lowered by BubbleBeam, and so on). Both simulators are implementing these rediscovered cartridge mechanics as I type this. So you can expect them in RBY play going forward from now. I think this is an interesting opportunity to revitalise the meta, and wish you all luck in adapting to it. |
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Post by cheese on Dec 28, 2014 2:23:20 GMT -8
So Body Slam can't paralyse Tauros, Snorlax or Chansey? That's friggen huge! It changes all kinds of match ups.
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 28, 2014 3:28:13 GMT -8
Oh, hi. I was made aware of this and thought to pop by.
It’s actually hilarious that essentially all of the online RBY in the last 16 years or so was played under mechanics that aren’t true to the game. All of the tournaments, random matches, and everything were played under non-RBY settings. Sure, that doesn’t mean the time spent was a total waste as learning an “arbitrary” game is no different than whatever is true and official, but it certainly throws a wrench at competitive RBY, and the whole purpose of these boards and many others. It’s more amazing that over all these years, through all the RBY masters, experts, scientists, etc, nobody found out until now (and apparently this applies to Stadium as well?). That is ridiculously embarrassing on the grandest scales.
It’s also a big deal that it affects one of the most universal, metagame-defining moves, Body Slam, which changes how Physicals interact with each other, how Chansey plays her defensive role, and so much more. It’s almost intimidating to think about how much information and articles regarding competitive RBY have been written over the years that suddenly become outdated and incorrect. Much of my RBY guide and a lot of RBY2K10 is loaded with false information, since Tauros, Snorlax, and Chansey are three of the gods of the game, and how they interact with one another is incredibly important. Having Body Slam on most Pokemon doesn’t seem necessary anymore, and Normal-types get a nice boost now. Obviously, it’s not that impactful for all Pokemon directly, but it is with how the game flows. Tauros and Snorlax being able to switch into Body Slam is a good example. Or even just all the Tauros dittos over the years, where a Paralyzed Tauros should have been able to continue sweeping the opposition. And apparently there’s another glitch that affects Paralysis and Burns? What a mess.
With this, it also makes you wonder what else may have gone unnoticed so far. Before the transition from Netbattle to Pokemon Online, WaterWizard and I noticed that Bug erroneously was neutral to Ghost, instead of not very effective, allowing for Jolteon’s Pin Missile to be super-effective. We thought it was funny in that it could have changed the outcome of many games over all the years, and that we weren’t technically playing RBY because of it, but because it’s a somewhat small-ish detail, it wasn’t such a big deal. This new discovery pretty much means all the years myself, and anyone else that has put time into RBY was for a game that didn’t “officially” exist, and would take a long time to re-learn the new metagame and how everything is affected. Or RBYPlus could have picked up steam instead and be played exactly as it was intended to be.
Not to mention that RBY as played on simulators already had many made-up clauses and rules to begin with. It’s a bad game looking back at it and I’ve learned that RNG is a terrible addition to anything that’s competitive and head-to-head. =)
No regrets though, it was fun.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Dec 28, 2014 4:17:26 GMT -8
So Body Slam can't paralyse Tauros, Snorlax or Chansey? Yes, that is correct. Yes, it is. Yes, it does. |
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Post by marcoasd on Dec 28, 2014 4:37:49 GMT -8
Hi Eric, I always liked the idea of you and WW coming back and this shit has at least accomplished this.
I think the game was better, I mean, funnier the way it was: the fact that Tauros can't be paraslammed makes it an even more stupid pokemon.
I've been playing with another some new guy with cartridges (we obviously noticed that Slowbro thing and I even reported it, but it wasn't investigated).
About Body Slam, the other guys who don't like to paralyze Chansey were kinda disappointed by their slams not paralyzing, but you can't imagine a thing like that and you just blame hax. This is really embarrassing nonetheless.
We didn't notice, so it's not THAT big as it looks at first glance, but we didn't play accordingly to this fact.
The main point now is about deciding to use Chansey Starmie-style or not, but if you decide so, you need another status absorber (Alakazam).
So i see things changing just a little bit, but not in a positive way.
All in all, I think we should have not discovered this. #blamecrystal_
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Post by piexplode on Dec 28, 2014 7:14:26 GMT -8
It is huge but at the same time it'll still be a similar game; we were so far advanced along with the previous one though that it's by default a large knockback for us all.. level's the playing field a bit for newer players such as myself though  |
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Post by magic9mushroom on Dec 28, 2014 16:44:50 GMT -8
The main point now is about deciding to use Chansey Starmie-style or not, but if you decide so, you need another status absorber (Alakazam). Well, there's a bit more to it than that. Because under previous mechanics, Tauros and Snorlax would force out Chansey even were it not paralysed (because it WOULD be paralysed if it stayed in, and would then have to switch out anyway while paralysed and heavily damaged). But now they can't (well, Tauros can't; Snorlax still can to some extent by threatening to stall out Softboiled). Which means you don't really have the option anymore of avoiding paralysing Chansey, unless you have something else that can force it out (your own paralysed Chansey/Alakazam being the most obvious, and those aren't nearly as dangerous to have to switch into). If you try to avoid paralysing it with specials, you risk just outright getting swept by it. (Chansey sweeps are awesome.) |
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Post by marcoasd on Dec 29, 2014 0:59:58 GMT -8
The main point now is about deciding to use Chansey Starmie-style or not, but if you decide so, you need another status absorber (Alakazam). Well, there's a bit more to it than that. Because under previous mechanics, Tauros and Snorlax would force out Chansey even were it not paralysed (because it WOULD be paralysed if it stayed in, and would then have to switch out anyway while paralysed and heavily damaged). But now they can't (well, Tauros can't; Snorlax still can to some extent by threatening to stall out Softboiled). Which means you don't really have the option anymore of avoiding paralysing Chansey, unless you have something else that can force it out (your own paralysed Chansey/Alakazam being the most obvious, and those aren't nearly as dangerous to have to switch into). If you try to avoid paralysing it with specials, you risk just outright getting swept by it. (Chansey sweeps are awesome.) Indeed. On Chansey's player side you use it like a Starmie, hiding it from Thunder Waves and attacking against Snorlax/Tauros. |
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Post by magic9mushroom on Dec 29, 2014 14:24:45 GMT -8
Or you could just use it as normal. But it's safer even in that case, because your opponent has to choose between giving up on freezing it or not being able to force it out with physicals. (They'll probably choose the former, but that means you aren't at risk of Chansey freeze.)
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Post by piexplode on Mar 14, 2015 16:59:26 GMT -8
With this, it also makes you wonder what else may have gone unnoticed so far. Before the transition from Netbattle to Pokemon Online, WaterWizard and I noticed that Bug erroneously was neutral to Ghost, instead of not very effective, allowing for Jolteon’s Pin Missile to be super-effective. We thought it was funny in that it could have changed the outcome of many games over all the years, and that we weren’t technically playing RBY because of it, but because it’s a somewhat small-ish detail, it wasn’t such a big deal. This new discovery pretty much means all the years myself, and anyone else that has put time into RBY was for a game that didn’t “officially” exist, and would take a long time to re-learn the new metagame and how everything is affected. Or RBYPlus could have picked up steam instead and be played exactly as it was intended to be.  this is how it's implemented on PO atm (ghost being neutral to bug rather than resisting it) Test Piex Test sent out Jolteon! [CC] Piexplode sent out Gengar! Start of turn 1 The foe's Jolteon used Pin Missile! It's super effective! Gengar lost 24 HP! (7% of its health) Gengar lost 24 HP! (7% of its health) Hit 2 time(s)! edit: pokemon-online.eu/threads/rby-bug-neutral-on-ghost.30559/ |
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 17, 2015 18:10:17 GMT -8
Isa, 24 HP is super-effective damage. And PO shouldn't be replicating display bugs.
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Post by LucasBM on Mar 30, 2015 12:02:08 GMT -8
I have been away for months, maybe years from everyday battilng and I have to say I AM SHOCKED.
It's like my whole life was a lie! LOL.
Although I'd like to see how the meta is doing with these HUGE changes.
More: do both changes apply to Stadium mechanics?
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Post by froggy25 on Mar 30, 2015 20:52:24 GMT -8
1) No
2) Yes
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Post by Raish on Mar 31, 2015 6:07:25 GMT -8
Early game Paralysis (Eg: before Sleep) took a major nerf, so lead Zam has dropped in usage. My old playstyle of using Zam/Lax to spread early Para then sweeping with Rhydon/Tauros and saving Egg as Sleep for unparlyzed threats doesn't work anymore. Due to the nerf to Rock sweeping, Electrics have become common, with Zapdos being seen as a sweeper and Jolteon as a less potent sweeper that answers Zapdos. Reflect Lax has probably about tied Standard Lax for usage. Kingler rose in usage as a result of all the Rest coming in despite the increased Electric usage because the Electrics are forces to make up some of the aggression lost from Lax on Electric Aggro teams, so they're more likely to get Paralyzed (too bad they're not immune to Thunder Wave, just TBolt Para). Kingler also covered for Rhydon's sweeping role because even without Swords Dance, his HBeam hits like a Rhydon Earthquake, and he outspeeds a lot of stuff even when unparalyzed. Jynx has become the most popular lead, especially Rest Jynx. This was all before the Stat Change->Speed Drop Slowbro Buff, so we'll see how that shakes things up right now!
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Post by marcoasd on Mar 31, 2015 10:23:17 GMT -8
In my opinon many changes were wrong.
I think it's a great time to use the standard Snorlax's moveset. Rest Snorlax is countered by Chansey and is eventually taken out with luck; it can't paralyze Tauros and I can't really understand what it gained to become so popular (Body Slam/Amnesia/Ice Beam/Rest is the best of them all, arguabily).
Maybe it was just: "Snorlax has troubles with unpara'd Chansey? Let's give it Rest!".
Alakazam is a good lead overall, it never fitted my builds but I like it more now. Jynx being around this much took away Egg leads, and Alakazam can hit Jynx better than Starmie does.
Kingler is depending on setups: the lack of paraslams hurts and Kingler can't even paralyze Tauros on its own. Facing more electrics than rocks is bad, too.
Thunder Wave users are obviously more important now, and it's right to use them a lot. Rocks could find a slot over either Snorlax or Tauros.
I think the speed thing is going to affect plays more than teambuilding. Psychic+Hyper Beam Starmie can beat Alakazam.
At the moment I like the team I'm laddering with: Alakazam, Starmie, Exeggutor, Lapras, Snorlax, Jolteon. It's a lot different from what we were used to...
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Post by Ortheore on Apr 3, 2015 2:10:39 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind RestLax everywhere is along those lines. By running Rest you turn the matchup against an unpara'd Chansey from a loss (until you boom I guess) to a "draw" where you're practically just wasting Chansey's Softboiled PP. That is, until Chansey forces a Rest, then switches out into something that beats sleeping Lax.
The AmnesiaLax set you posted is one of my favourites in this meta if I'm not totally spamming para, because you have the potential for a freeze in your favour, so you're not just sitting there doing nothing the way other RestLaxs are. I also agree that the "standard" Lax set is still great, it's just maybe something that's passed over because it struggles against unpara'd Chansey. But it's not as though it's that difficult to provide the requisite para support. In fact I'm finding myself increasingly drawn to those two sets as opposed to something like ReflectLax. Imo they're simply the best options for dealing with Chansey, and when I'm building a team that's what I want Snorlax to do. Should see even more AmnesiaLax as a result of the stat mechanics finally being implemented as well.
Zam is still a great lead imo. Its matchup with Jynx isn't terrible, it still beats Gengar, which is maybe a little more common as a result of Jynx being everywhere. Great option if you're spreading para aggressively. The one that really got shafted is Starmie, purely because Jynx is popular. I barely ever see it now, even though it has a lot of things going for it, it's that those positives are overshadowed by Jynx.
What I find crazy is how the changes to the meta have made the top 4 so much better than everything else. Like it's really tough not to use Taur/Chansey/Lax/Egg on practically all of my teams. Tauros is probably the easiest one to drop because it's mostly limited to lategame situations, but on the other hand it is just so good that it's difficult to justify not including it on a team
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Apr 6, 2015 8:43:57 GMT -8
ReflectLax is great because it spreads paralysis the best in this metagame. The only requirement for it to do it's thing is that opposing Snorlaxes (preferably without Rest!) are paralyzed. Enter on Snorlax or Chansey, set a screen or slam, profit.
I would use Amnesia more if it was useful in the ditto, but it really isn't.
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Post by Mantishuffle on Apr 19, 2015 20:35:10 GMT -8
So just to be clear, these new found stat mechanics are currently implemented in Pokémon Online? I ask because I haven't played since September of 2014.
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Post by Golden Gyarados on Apr 20, 2015 6:25:37 GMT -8
Yup, PO is up to date with everything but the hbeam-sleep glitch (which is not described in this thread)
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Post by posthuman on Jun 10, 2016 17:12:06 GMT -8
lol I actually just found out about all of this. Crazy, crazy stuff.
A bad game though Eric? Probably when compared to something like melee, but melee's better than most games. RBY's great in all its nostalgia-driven glory (even though I don't play much anymore)!
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Post by Consumptus on Jul 16, 2016 9:13:22 GMT -8
Wow, this is crazy.
Did Crystal discover this playing around with the code of the games?
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Post by Nitro on Jul 31, 2016 19:07:33 GMT -8
Wow. Some crazy changes. Hats off to Crystal for those. Really shakes things up a bit. I'd think this makes Chansey way better. And slowbro. Maybe even Zapdos. Who knows.
@rng - I think RNG is great, and it makes RBY great. It creates depth in the game. Despite such a limited pool of pokes being used in each RBY OU game, no two games are exactly the same. The variance creates situations and forces you to make more decisions. We all know it sucks to have your back broken in a game by one unlikely crit, but RBY play needs to be judged based on how you fair over the course of hundreds, if not thousands of games. Much like poker. With no RNG the game would just be solved, people would have long ago figured out exactly what is the correct move in the limited scenarios that would exist, there would be no learning curve, and the game would be abandoned out of boredom.
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Post by piexplode on Aug 3, 2016 19:24:23 GMT -8
I kind of feel like if anything Slowbro took a hit, and it definitely makes Chansey better. Just to fill you in, in case you're not aware: If you want to get involved in current tournaments, as well as read more current discussions and so on, Pokemon Perfect (Lutra's forum) is the best place to go, and Smogon also has a decent amount of RBY tournaments available (fewer but featured in their most major tournaments, like SPL, WCoP, and the new (as of last year) Smogon Classic). Forum link: www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/index.phpAlso PO is fairly dead now (well about 600 people on at once right now, but the RBY ladder is pretty much entirely dead now); Pokemon Showdown is where RBY is usually played - furthermore the ladder there is active and very quick to get matches on, but players don't value the ladder anything like they used to even a few years ago, so you'll probably find your best games in tournaments. PS! link: play.pokemonshowdown.com/[Also I go by Disaster Area on other forums] |
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Post by piexplode on Aug 3, 2016 19:25:48 GMT -8
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this is how it's implemented on PO atm (ghost being neutral to bug rather than resisting it)
