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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 14, 2010 7:45:58 GMT -8
I have been thinking abaut tiers recently and I came up with the idea of creating a new tier by only banning the 3 OU recoverers and teh otehr stuff that is very common in OU and also overpowers this new tier. The result is a nice offensive and well self-constituted metagame.
This can actually work for for people that want (or prefer) tiers based on usage (like me) becasue the banned pokes are actually the most used stuff in OU, as well as people that consider more important the balance, because anything is overpowered and everything has its counter(s) and has a clear rol.
UBER: Mew, Mewtwo.[/color]
OU: Alakazam, Chansey, Starmie, Tauros, Exeggutor, Snorlax, Slowbro, Golem.
New tier: The rest.
This teir is similar to the actual BL tier, but I was not thinking in this tier as a ban tier (like BL) or as a random tier with a ban tier above it (like UU), ... just like teh tier that is below OU.
Banning 8 pokes may seem very few, but that is what teh metagame needs. There are a lot of pokes whose viability is very similar behind these 8; and if we forgot abaut these pokes at making that tier, we will have the actual BL tier, which depends in teh UU tier and does not provide enough variations to make a team or at battling IMO. And unlike OU, BL needs many options to choose to become an interesting metagame; it is offensive.
Probably the most viable stuff for this tier
\ Raticate \ Raichu \ Nidoking \ Dugtrio \ Sandslash \ Persian \ Kadabra \ Cloyster \ Gengar \ Hypno \ Rhydon \ Kangaskhan \ Jynx \ Gyarados \ Lapras \ Jolteon \ Zapdos \ Dragonite
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Post by WaterWizard on Sept 14, 2010 11:59:40 GMT -8
Crystal, the point is, we've already done that. the current tiers are based off the same idea that you propose, except they are more mature in that we've already weeded out the poor pokes and established matching tiers. the only remaining tier discussion is individual pokemon promotion/demotion.
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 15, 2010 4:48:20 GMT -8
In the other post I did not said what I really wanted to say. Sorry. I was thinking more in a new "metagame" (I used the word tier unconsciously) more than in a tier (or the first link of a new tier list).
Think for example in a metagame that bans everything that starts with the letter A; but with a more serious rule, which is similar to the way a tier is made.
I purpose a new RBY metagame that does not matter abaut the usage or power in OU, to see if it is interesting and entertaining, like if we made a Mew-allowed OU or a metagame with sleep moves banned. My main interest was to forgot abaut the tiering rules at making it, to have more freedom at deciding what is better.
Anyway I think that we cannot go further with the tier distribution. The ower and usefulness / viability is relative while the usage does not seem to be an accepted way of tiering.
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Post by WaterWizard on Sept 15, 2010 7:57:29 GMT -8
Right, I agree that it's fun to do themed battles (Zilch and I do these all the time), but I'm just saying that I doubt putting BLs with OUs would make a good metagame since only the OUs would be used (they're better).
I like banning sleep moves for a tournament (we've done it before with success) and I have many more creative themes to try!
Perhaps this discussion should go in another thread, though, as it's not really tier related.
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 15, 2010 10:55:14 GMT -8
Are you sure? - Gengar has a lot of counters. - Persian is stopped cold by Gengar and is pretty fragile. - Rhydon also has many counters ore many ways to counter. Lapras too. Jynx as well. - Electrics are stopped by grounds, especially Jolteon who, like Raichu, counters Zapdos. Raichu could even be the most useful if people forgot abaut grasses. - Kadabra serves for a lot of stuff. Hypno is pretty good as well. - Kangaskhan and Dugtrio are really dangerous. - Stuff like Nidoking, Dragonite or Raticate are pretty useful with good prediction.
I do not find anything superior to teh rest. Many things have nearly the same usefulness and serve to counter something while are countered by something else at the same time.
I did not pretend that to be another "themed" metagame that is forgotten after is played. I wanted it to be as important as a tier would be or have been. Eitehr banning these 8 pokes or banning 6, 16 or 75. Whichever seem to be the most interesting. But I personally like that.
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Post by WaterWizard on Sept 15, 2010 13:05:40 GMT -8
Well I'm not sure why you'd ban Golem and not Rhydon.
Teams of six would look like this: Jynx, Jolteon/Zapdos, Hypno, Dugtrio/Persian, Lapras/Articuno. They'd always be used, with the occasional guest Dodrio/Kanga or something.
Zapdos would freaking own, by the way. People would start running Graveler, which is just dejavu.
Not bashing your idea, just saying that if you move the "top eight/nine/ten" aside, another top eight will arise and so on. The developers of RBY didn't make it balanced.
Look at this page (http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/) and click the tab to sort the pokemon by total base stats. then look at the Tier column. Notice that nearly all the UUs have the worst stats. Jynx is the first OU on the list with low stats, and that's because of her incredible offensive typing and movepool, nice speed, and an accurate sleep move. Persian is another OU who's low on the list simply by virtue of the Slash glitch. Next is Slowbro, whose total base stats aren't really accurately reflected since speed is irrelevant for him. You'll find that those three pokemon are the ONLY OUs in the entire 3/5 of the list. RBY is about stats. You'll find the upper fifth of base stats is all OUs, with the exception of the limited movepool pokes (flareon, arcanine, vap, blastoise, etc).
So you see, there are "bests." Usage reflects power/usefulness. Removing pokemon from a metagame just allows the next best pokes to fill the spots. ad nauseam.
Plus!
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 16, 2010 4:54:34 GMT -8
Every RBY metagame has its top. It is inevitable. But there is a big difference between a metagame dominated by recoverers, and a metagame dominated by sweepers. My objebtive was not making a metagame withouth a "top". Like OU, this metagame's top is balances, and that is the only necessity.
Zapdos is countered by Rhydon. and electrics.
Then, If you dont know why i banned Rhydon then you don't know why I banned Tauros. Tauros is like a Kan with more advs than disadvs. I consider the explosion plus too much. Also Golem is one of the most common pokes in OU, at least the 7th / 8th.
I just wanted to create a different metagame.
And pls could someone else opine too and/or give new ideas? We are only two atm!
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Post by t3h Icy on Sept 16, 2010 5:54:19 GMT -8
I don't think you realize quite how good Rhydon is. Golem outclasses him, but Rhydon is an absolute powerhouse.
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Post by posthuman on Sept 16, 2010 6:48:14 GMT -8
This shouldn't be in tier discussion.
Crystal, this new metagame idea is something similar to other unique metagames (TBs, insomnia, little cup) in that it is simply another specific set of rules for battling that differs from the standard. This doesn't mean it's bad or unimportant; I like the idea of a nearly stall-free game. It doesn't have much to do with what and how tiers should be though, so you should start a new topic.
EDIT: Now that this was moved, it's fine. Interesting idea Crystal, I'd like to try playing it (but it won't replace OU).
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 16, 2010 10:14:51 GMT -8
My idea was not strictly to create this metagame. It was to create a few metagames that, forgetting abaut the tiers and thus abaut their rules, are interesting, entertaining and balanced.
I don't want to find that suddenly a new metagame is created, a tournament is played and tehn we forgot abaut it. And now it "only" exist OU as a solid metagame because we can not come to an agreement with the tiers.
We can leave tier in Smogon's hands and try to make the metagames we prefer, using them over the tiers competitively talking. It could be banning pokes, using tradebacks, allowing PTMs, banning sleep, allowing OHKO moves. The 2-3 we prefer, forever.
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Post by WaterWizard on Sept 16, 2010 20:20:52 GMT -8
So you're wanting to recraft the standard metagame? That can't happen because we become completely cut off from the rest of the RBY world. Banning Wrap and moving a few pokes among the tiers is about all we can do without become unrelatable.
What we (specifically you) can do is create separate metagames. And they don't have to be one time wonders. You can encourage continued activity in a metagame you/we create. But it can't replace the Standard game.
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 17, 2010 10:05:37 GMT -8
What I say is to create other metagames apart from OU (having the importance UU, BL, etc would have). But create metagames based on how much we like them without caring abaut the tier's rules. And taht metagames would be permanent to avoid creating one day a new metagame that is forgotten in 5 days.
I want to play something competitive out of OU. But since with tiers we cant go anywhere, I purpose that, we decade a metagame that we like in general and we play it competitively. (and since we dont change teh tiers, we dont clash with Smogon).
OBV, OU will contine being the main metagame, but I dont want to change this, because it is, has been, will be, should be, and will have been.
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Post by t3h Icy on Sept 17, 2010 10:22:04 GMT -8
LC, TBs, BL/UU/NU are fine, CC (though not technically competitive).
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 17, 2010 10:51:58 GMT -8
Tier metas are very relative to everyone, and you want to change the actual smogon tiers. LC, and TBs are viable if we like it in general, to play it competitive, [official 2k10] tournaments... Tiers needs a lot of discussion, will be different to Smogon's, and must be based on usage in order to not to break their rules.
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Post by Crystal_ on Oct 19, 2010 9:24:46 GMT -8
Is anyone interested in playing it =)?
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