|
Post by cheese on Oct 17, 2011 6:24:21 GMT -8
Anyway I wouldn't say Lapras "destroys" rock, (in the sense of being a good switch-in like a non-para Starmie or Eggy is) because Rock Slide is doing +50% from Rhydon in the switch-in. Well yeh, obviously Lapras isn't the best switch-in, but it does easily take them on offensively. Unless your opponent predicted a switch to Lapras it's unlikely they'd use Rock Slide to be fair, but there still could be issues (for example, a paraslam followed by a Rock Slide). Maybe destroys wasn't a good choice of words, but in an even situation (ie not a switch in, neither pokemon paralysed), it'd be the rocks switching out if they could.
|
|
|
Post by hipmonlee on Oct 17, 2011 12:41:50 GMT -8
The usefulness of zapdos is obviously determined by the likelihood your opponent uses golem or rhydon. In a world where no one ever used grounds zapdos would be 2. If they were on every team it could fall as low as 17 I would say..
|
|
|
Post by Nitro on Oct 17, 2011 14:22:35 GMT -8
But see I'd argue that even under ideal circumstances Zapdos isn't THAT potent offensively. It's still going to have to deal with alakazam, chansey, snorlax, even gengar. He's not guaranteed to beat those pokes let alone make it out without being mortally wounded. Starmie/Tauros/Persian can come in faster and deal big damage to try to finish him off. Lapras can take a tbolt and deal back a ton of damage with blizzard, as can Jynx.
The thing is if he starts critting he's a problem. But if he doesn't, he probably won't even get through zam/chansey. I can't see him being better than Lax (who at least goes 1 for 1 reliably regardless of opposing team and luck) under any circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by t3h Icy on Oct 17, 2011 22:37:36 GMT -8
That's why Zapdos is a late-game sweeper, lol.
|
|
|
Post by hipmonlee on Oct 17, 2011 23:26:35 GMT -8
Yeah, comparing him in one on one situations is a bit unfair, lax is better than tauros in one on ones too.
But zapdos does huge damage per turn, only Zam and Chansey take more from lax than Zapdos, plus it is fast, can thunderwave, and crits 4 times as often as lax does. On the other hand with snorlax, you can get into trouble with counter or you can mispredict with selfdestruct or hyperbeam.
I wouldnt say I am certain groundless zapdos is better than lax, but I wouldnt feel uncomfortable with zapdos at 2. It's definitely a lot better than Exeggutor.
Also FPs will easily account for Blissey and Alakazam. Both really should just paralyse and switch or attack, in which case Zapdos will generally kill both. You can try and recover once Zapdos is par'd but only if you are desperate. And Zapdos does Crit pretty often.. Zam vs Zapdos is definitely a very bad matchup for alakazam.
|
|
|
Post by Nitro on Oct 18, 2011 5:00:06 GMT -8
That's why Zapdos is a late-game sweeper, lol. Well here's the second problem with that - team building practicality. What is Zapdos replacing on a standard team? He's not better than Tauros so you're not going to replace Tauros right? Therefore a Zapdos team is going to be some type of dual sweepers build. This means you're going to have to give up either snorlax or a special wall, which will really hurt you defensively (something more important may have to take sleep or physical hits now) and put you at risk of not setting up your sweepers properly, defeating the whole purpose. Zam vs Zapdos - hmm? I've seen (reflect) zam beat zapdos many many times. Much more often than not, in fact. Idk, I've never been able to make Zapdos truly work. Even when free, he is not automatically steam rolling teams offensively and if you try to save him for the very late game your late game is harmed by not having a more versatile poke in that slot all game. If you're facing a ground, you probably lost, or are at the very least fighting very uphill. I've just always found pokemon like Lapras - solid and well-rounded, that can find a way to be useful against any team and with or without luck more valuable than all or nothing types like Zapdos.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Oct 18, 2011 7:33:38 GMT -8
I'd also say Zapdos #3 or #4 behind Snorlax.
Zapdos wouldn't be bad versus anything (though there is still Jolteon?), and will often beat anything 1 on 1 (including Chansey and Alakazam, assuming they are already para), but not specially good vs anything, aka, not really able to consistently switch into anything, and rarely able to beat anything without taking a lot of damage back.
Snorlax is more likely to get 2 on 1 trades imo, thanks to SD, but i'd mainly note it's ability to switch-in into Chansey to get free hits from there, something Zapdos will have a harder time doing into Lapras/eggy/starm. And it's very easy to get the Snorlax vs Chansey matchup.
As for the Zapdos team in standard RBY, something like Zam/Eggy, Lax, Tau, Eggy/Lapras(Sing), Chansey/Zam, Zapdos. I'd use surflax and eggy to cover grounds, with zam lead.
|
|
|
Post by hipmonlee on Oct 18, 2011 14:35:59 GMT -8
Zapdos isnt all that all or nothing either.. It's not like it is all that much worse against Golem and Rhydon than Starmie is against Chansey.
|
|
|
Post by jorgen on Oct 18, 2011 18:44:46 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure that, in order to be considered "legit" offense, a given poke needs to be able to beat chansey/zam. The better the Chansey/Zam matchup is, the better an offensive poke it is, because those are the two things that are bound to be sticking around and otherwise forcing stall-outs.
Zapdos' "meh"-ness is derived from the fact that Zam and Chansey actually give it a bit of trouble, and unlike something else like Lapras, it relies almost solely on late-game sweeping for its value instead of hit-taking abilities and versatility in the middle game.
|
|
|
Post by garrinred on Oct 18, 2011 21:41:00 GMT -8
I've been running Agility+Reflect Zapdos lately and having huge success with it. It goes 1 for 1 or better vs. anything on my opponent's whole team, so long as Golem/Rhydon is gone.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Oct 19, 2011 1:57:32 GMT -8
Zapdos is only a late-game pokemon because of the possibility of Rocks. With them gone, he can run free at once. If you scout your opponents team properly, Zap can come in very early.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Oct 19, 2011 7:04:05 GMT -8
Completely true; however, Chansey is much less of an offensive threat than Golem/Rhydon, so it isn't obviously the same being forced to switch out vs Chansey than vs the Rock.
|
|
|
Post by Nitro on Oct 19, 2011 11:55:23 GMT -8
Golem and Rhydon getting free hits is way different than chansey getting free hits. Plus even while walled Starmie can be used defensively for special walling if you so choose.
And Isa - no. Zapdos is not free right away that's what I've been saying. Zam or Chansey can beat or cripple it to the point where you are at best 1 for 1 trading with them.
Idk, I never had much success with Zapdos. He mostly finishes off battles that you've already won, and I'm constantly in battles where I wish I had something different. :/
I've never really had trouble dealing with it either. Zam/Chansey is plenty of defense even if you don't have a ground.
|
|
|
Post by cheese on Oct 19, 2011 13:11:08 GMT -8
Surely Chansey is a poor switch-in against Zapdos? If you switch into a Drill Peck you're basically screwed. Zam wouldn't like switching into a Drill Peck either, but at least it outspeeds Zapdos and often carries Reflect.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Oct 20, 2011 4:36:46 GMT -8
But when is Alakazam unparalyzed?
Anyway, the thing is that although chansey and zam will usually lose 1 on 1 if theyre switching into zap, they should at least be able to screw it with para and some damage with ibeam/psychic, usually allowing Tauros to revenge kill it later.
|
|
|
Post by garrinred on Oct 20, 2011 9:16:26 GMT -8
But when is Alakazam unparalyzed? Anyway, the thing is that although chansey and zam will usually lose 1 on 1 if theyre switching into zap, they should at least be able to screw it with para and some damage with ibeam/psychic, usually allowing Tauros to revenge kill it later. I don't know about most people, but my Zam is very often unparalyzed. Needs the speed to curbstomp Tauros in the late-game. Basically the only time he's paralyzed is when he has to duel Chansey. The thing is, neither Chansey nor Zam switch into Zapdos so much as revenge kill it.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Oct 20, 2011 9:21:40 GMT -8
Chansey does revenge kills now?
If you ever try to revenge with those, say hello to my own Zam/Starmie/Chansey.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Oct 20, 2011 9:31:04 GMT -8
If it doesn't get paralyzed, then Starmie is BETTER. Alakazam's advantage over Starmie is Chansey, so unless you are facing non-twave Chanseys, which shouldn't be the case, Starmie would have been better if zam finished the battle unpara. In other words, almost everything Alakazam does better than Starmie (set up physical switches and spread para), starts from Chansey.
|
|
|
Post by jorgen on Oct 20, 2011 10:27:53 GMT -8
What? No... Zam actually keeps Snorlax out, something to which neither Chansey nor non-HP Starmie can attest. None of Zam, Chansey, and Alakazam is particularly offensive; Starmie's main draws over Alakazam are its ability to check Slowbro and its ability to take a physical hit half-decently without setting up Reflect, neither of which really requires it to be unparalyzed.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Oct 20, 2011 11:20:15 GMT -8
umm, Surf Starmie is almost like Psychic vs Snorlax, and Alakazam takes hits from Snorlax much worse (2hkoed by slam, +90% from beam; around 45-50% more damage or so). If Zam is better vs Snorlax it's because of Reflect. But wait, can't Starmie learn it too? Starmie doesn't pack Reflect beacause your opponent is supposed to go to Chansey forcing Starmie out, which means Reflect has been a wasted turn. But if Zam isn't taking para, it's because he is also switching out from chansey. So Reflect Starmie > Reflect Zam here.
Slowbro, Cloyster, Rhydon, Golem are very important defensive advantages on Starmie over Zam. The ability to force Zam out more often than not with Surf is also worth mentioning for sure, thoguh this would imply taking para (so it's no longer switching into rocks, or fully walling Cloy, ReflectBro or Drain Eggys).
Anyway, I don't know what you want to say with "neither of which really requires it to be unparalyzed. ". I wasn't saying anything that has to do with para on Starmie, but with para on Zam. I was saying that a Zam hasn't capitalised on Chansey if it's unpara, so Starmie would have been better over Zam then.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Oct 20, 2011 11:38:18 GMT -8
Crystal, regarding your first paragraph, come back when your Starmie actually USES Reflect, and not just theorycrafts it. =p
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Oct 20, 2011 11:48:17 GMT -8
I'm not saying Starmie should use Reflect. I am saying that if Zam isn't staying in into Chansey, Starmie is better than Zam, Reflect Starmie is better than Reflect Zam, but, still, standard Starmie is better than reflect starm.
|
|
|
Post by Nitro on Oct 20, 2011 14:30:42 GMT -8
Crystal you are way way off here...
A hypothetical surf twave reflect recover starmie (which I can only assume is what you're talking about since you are saying it is directly better than reflect zam) is horrific and would be walled by 8 million things.
If you drop twave it is a different pokemon because alakazam twaves. Zam also pulls off psychic only much more because it special falls. Surf does jack shit.
I sorta get what you're saying but it's not the same pokemon. There's nothing wrong with saving your Zam.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Oct 21, 2011 8:59:52 GMT -8
OMG i was not saying Reflect Starmie is better than Reflect Zam because it wouldn't be true at all.
---> If Alakazam is always switching out from Chasney like Starmie is, to avoid TWave, we can kind of say that this Alakazam becomes a Starmie vs Chansey and an Alakazam vs everything else. And I'd take Starmie over Alakazam imo if we take out Zam's advantage over Starm on Chansey. Not saying Reflect Starmie, but standard Starmie. Like Surf, bolt, wave, recover. You know. Reflect Starmie was just to make a more similar comparison with Reflect Zam, but I'd also take Reflect Starmie over (Reflect) Zam in this case imo.
|
|
|
Post by garrinred on Oct 21, 2011 13:37:41 GMT -8
Zam stays in to fight Chansey when doing so would be beneficial. Specifically, in the late-game when it can force out or kill Chansey and anything else coming in has to take a psychic to the face.
There is absolutely no sense in Zam fighting Chansey early in the game, when Chansey can switch out to Eggy or Starmie or Zam to get rid of special falls.
As for Starmie vs. Zam.....Starmie is weak to Thunderbolt(also Mega Drain). Zam is not. This is significant. Actually this is probably the number 1 reason Zam is as good as or better than Starmie. If Starmie were pure-psychic type, its defensive stats and movepool would make it easily the best pokemon in OU.
|
|
|
Post by Nitro on Oct 21, 2011 14:25:04 GMT -8
Oh I see what you're saying Crystal.
But ironically, what's retarded is how common ice beam only chansey is, so in fact starmie walls Chansey better than anything else sometimes.
I agree though you shouldn't always throw your zam into par immediately vs chansey early you should either go freeze war or aggressive with snorlax (or some combination of the two) and then once you know the chansey set you can adjust accordingly.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Oct 23, 2011 11:36:57 GMT -8
Yea, Zam gives you the chance to either stay on Chansey or save it for late game, but the later shouldn't be done as a rule, only sporadically, after analyzing the scenario. Otherwise Starmie is just better. But yes, Alakazam can be used as a mini-starmie if you feel the need; Starmie is just Starmie and has no way to get rid of that tbolt weakness.
Um, and if i'm being aggressive with lax, i'd actually para it before. Chansey paras it too, but Zam gives you the chance to send Lax in on Softboiled, or on Ice Beam from a 60-70%, much easier and perhaps with -1 spc (which is only relevant if it is Golem/Rhydon rather than lax though, as Chansey is just paralyzing lax, and then switching out anyway).
@garrin red: Alakazam is better than Starmie imo (#5 vs #6). Being able to force your opponent to switch out is what makes zam better than starm. Otherwise Starmie is better defensively (instantly offensively is pretty irrelevant given how many things flatout wall them). Force Chansey out, then para eggy/starm on the switch; he is probably switching back to Chansey so you can even go to Snorlax/rock here. If he doesn't switch out or goes to a para Alakazam, switches to Snorlax/Rhydon/Golem are easy. Alakazam is definitely the best para spreader in the game and the best at setting up physical switches as well. Both things imply staying in on Chansey, aka taking para. If you don't do so, Starmie is better as aforementioned.
And no, mono psychic Starmie wouldn't be #1. It would definitely be a better Zam (sort of kanga vs tau), but probably #4 imo. Perhaps even on par with Chansey, but not better than Snorlax imo (at least not better than Tauros). Mind you, you are praising his special movepool, but Psychic/Recover/TW/Reflect doesn't provide room for her moves. And non-Reflect Starmie wouldn't be that much of a problem to treat with imo (para then beat it with physicals). Not as dumb as non-Reflect Alakazam as it has 268 def, though, and Ibeam freeze is great.
|
|
|
Post by garrinred on Oct 23, 2011 20:04:43 GMT -8
It would drop T-wave, turning it into the Special version of Tauros, a powerful late-game sweeper. Except it can Recover. Psychic/Ice Beam/T-bolt/Recover. Drop Psychic for Reflect if you really want.
It would literally have no OU weaknesses whatsoever, and could hit anything but Normals and Psychics super-effective. Also it has speed, and can take hits alright on both the physical and special end.
Totally #1.
This is irrelevant, but Anmesia Zam would be epic. Also uber. ^_^
|
|
|
Post by jorgen on Oct 23, 2011 21:08:02 GMT -8
Psychic-only Starmie wouldn't be a "sweeper" by any means. It still wouldn't be able to break Chansey/Alakazam/other Starmie.
It would probably be a bit better than Zam, though, if only for the movepool that doesn't allow it to be walled by quite so much. I still contend that Snorlax would be able to mess its shit up, though. STAB Psychic or no, you can probably get it in on a Recover or on weaker-than-Chansey Tbolts and IBs, then start wailing at it with Bslams, probably paralyzing it and forcing it into a Recover loop to stay out of Hbeam KO range. Bringing Lax in is a risk I'd be willing to take more often against Starmie's 298 Special Psychic than against Zam's 368 Special Psychic, and while that's not really enough to push Alakazam over Psychic-only Starmie, it's something to consider.
|
|
|
Post by garrinred on Oct 23, 2011 21:18:15 GMT -8
Psychic-only Starmie wouldn't be a "sweeper" by any means. It still wouldn't be able to break Chansey/Alakazam/other Starmie. It would probably be a bit better than Zam, though, if only for the movepool that doesn't allow it to be walled by quite so much. I still contend that Snorlax would be able to mess its shit up, though. STAB Psychic or no, you can probably get it in on a Recover or on weaker-than-Chansey Tbolts and IBs, then start wailing at it with Bslams, probably paralyzing it and forcing it into a Recover loop to stay out of Hbeam KO range. Bringing Lax in is a risk I'd be willing to take more often against Starmie's 298 Special Psychic than against Zam's 368 Special Psychic, and while that's not really enough to push Alakazam over Psychic-only Starmie, it's something to consider. Reflect. That is all. You're right though that Zam/Chansey/Starmie would be a deterrant to just sweeping.
|
|