UU Discussion

[Isa]

This is the non-OU meta I feel that I am the best at.

I am not going to make a complete analysis of all UU pokés, but I want a discussion of tiering within the tier, based on viability (hence why Electrode/Magneton/Fearow is higher than Poliwhirl/Arcanine/Ninetales). A rough draft, which is purely my opinion, would go like this:

Top UU:
Charizard
Dewgong (on NetBattle)
Electabuzz
Golduck
Graveler
Kingler
Poliwrath
Raticate
Tangela
Venomoth

High UU:
Dewgong (not on NetBattle)
Kabutops
Sandslash
Vaporeon

Low UU:
Blastoise
Electrode
Fearow
Magneton
Pinsir
Porygon

Bottom UU:
Arcanine
Ninetales
Poliwhirl
NU Pokemon not mentioned

???:
Machamp
Omastar (pretty sure I saw it used at one point in the UU tournament)

I might add analyses later on (we have three of them on the Wiki however: Golduck, Raticate and Venomoth, all of them are great reads), but for now, what do you think of this tiering?

[Crystal_]

Vaporeon what?

[Isa]

Haze is the main selling point of Vaporeon, but a skilled player can abuse that - Amnesia, Amnesia, switch to something frozen/slept/paralyzed, woop woop.

[Isa]

(I also deliberately put her lower than she might be - I am nowhere near convinced that she is not top UU, but I'm partly playing devil's advocate to spawn a discussion, and I believe there is a case for her being high UU rather than top)

[davidchansey]

I love Vaporeon <3

[GGFan]

Blastoise is much better than you give him credit for. He's definitely better than Vaporeon, for one, if only because he isn't walled as easily. Vaporeon is OK, but it doesn't have a lot of merit in a metagame where brute force is more conducive to success than a bulky water without Amnesia.

I've never really played with Sandslash allowed in UU, so I can't provide too many comments. But its intrinsic value obviously lies in its T-Wave immunity, which is immensely helpful. Otherwise, Kingler outclasses 'Slash in practically every category.

I'd move up Blastoise and Pinsir. Pinsir isn't too far from Sandslash in terms of efficacy (just as bulky on the physical side, and has more attack). Blastoise is just an all-round, useful Pokemon that can 2HKO a good portion of the metagame and can only be 2HKOd by Magneton and Electabuzz (and Tangela if, for whatever reason, it manages to pull off a few Growths). Blastoise can also "counter" Golduck by running Surf/Ice Beam/Mimic/Rest, because Mimic will always copy Amnesia in this case (unless Golduck isn't running Ice Beam).

I've never really believed in Kabutops' perceived stock in UU. He's weaker than Pinsir and has more weaknesses. I don't think his rock-typing is all that useful in UU, because it's really only good for switching into Raticate--not enough of an advantage, in my opinion. As for its water-typing, Arcanine will 2HKO on average if Kabutops takes just one hit from practically anything, making it ineffectual as a counter.

[t3h Icy]

Blastoise is trash in UU. As soon as he comes out, Golduck, Poliwrath and Kingler can all power-up with ease, Venomoth can easily come in and use powders, Electabuzz can survive Surf + Earthquake, and can follow up with Thunder Wave or Thunderbolt, or use Psychic on Graveler. Magneton has trouble, but as long as Blastoise doesn't use Earthquake on the switch-in, Magneton can use Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, die on no FP and Blastoise is then easily revenge killed. Vaporeon has the advantage because of Rest, and has stronger Ice Beams for the Freeze war (13% max vs 7% max). If Blastoise has Rest, he's missing either Body Slam or Earthquake, which are both key for him.

Blastoise is okay at KOing, but the metagame is a lot more defensive and based on switching, which Blastoise can't keep up with. Blastoise can't counter Golduck with the Mimic setup as well, since he has to take a turn while Golduck gets a free Amnesia, and is slower too. That Blastoise is also made specifically for Golduck, and is otherwise just a bad Vaporeon.

Kabutops is useful in UU because he can use Surf for Graveler, opposed to Submission, he's resistant to Body Slam, which is on almost everything, and is excellent vs Fearow, while Pinsir has problems with him. On top, Kabutops has 10 less Speed, which supports Swords Dance without losing any important match-ups except for Pinsir himself (which is just a 50% per turn loss in one match-up), but has a 1% less chance to CH. Also due to how Pinsir vs Kabutops works, that 1% extra chance of uninterrupted Swords Dance is worth it.

Other typed-related usefulness for Kabutops is taking Ice attacks better for switching into Waters (preferably Paralyzed ones), and Kabutops can take Rock Slide and retaliate against Graveler, whereas Pinsir takes Earthquake instead, which can be useful for different kinds of chain-switching.

And Kabutops switching into Raticate is lolgg.

[WaterWizard]

Bastoise is pretty bad. Tons of better aquatics. vap is top uu on NBS, and high uu otherwise, due to mimic.

[Crystal_]

GGFan may easily be true here. Vap's only way to deal with Amnesia waters is Haze, which is pretty perdictable, and it ends up being forced to rest anyway (which can be capitalized by other things like Kingler/buzz.
However Blastoise doesn't hit hard enough imo. Slam does -20% to Golduck and Poliwrath and beam is only around 32%. So it's also a sort of setup bait for amnesiers. It outspeeds Poliwrath which is nice though, and EQ is great for electric switchins as well. However, his spc is also pretty bad for dealing with grasses.
Sandslash is more of a electric wall than a swords dancer because he can't really sd with so many waters.
Kabutops is just a worse Kingler in every aspect and is even pretty bad when considering both.
Pinsir is a better Kingler vs grasses but a worse Kingler vs waters, but you know waters>grasses. Not being electric weak is still there though. But Kingler is great. It's probably the best pokemon in UU.

[GGFan]

Dec 2, 2011 21:58:50 GMT -8 t3h Icy said:

Blastoise is trash in UU. As soon as he comes out, Golduck, Poliwrath and Kingler can all power-up with ease, Venomoth can easily come in and use powders, Electabuzz can survive Surf + Earthquake, and can follow up with Thunder Wave or Thunderbolt, or use Psychic on Graveler. Magneton has trouble, but as long as Blastoise doesn't use Earthquake on the switch-in, Magneton can use Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, die on no FP and Blastoise is then easily revenge killed. Vaporeon has the advantage because of Rest, and has stronger Ice Beams for the Freeze war (13% max vs 7% max). If Blastoise has Rest, he's missing either Body Slam or Earthquake, which are both key for him.

Blastoise is okay at KOing, but the metagame is a lot more defensive and based on switching, which Blastoise can't keep up with. Blastoise can't counter Golduck with the Mimic setup as well, since he has to take a turn while Golduck gets a free Amnesia, and is slower too. That Blastoise is also made specifically for Golduck, and is otherwise just a bad Vaporeon.

Kabutops is useful in UU because he can use Surf for Graveler, opposed to Submission, he's resistant to Body Slam, which is on almost everything, and is excellent vs Fearow, while Pinsir has problems with him. On top, Kabutops has 10 less Speed, which supports Swords Dance without losing any important match-ups except for Pinsir himself (which is just a 50% per turn loss in one match-up), but has a 1% less chance to CH. Also due to how Pinsir vs Kabutops works, that 1% extra chance of uninterrupted Swords Dance is worth it.

Other typed-related usefulness for Kabutops is taking Ice attacks better for switching into Waters (preferably Paralyzed ones), and Kabutops can take Rock Slide and retaliate against Graveler, whereas Pinsir takes Earthquake instead, which can be useful for different kinds of chain-switching.

And Kabutops switching into Raticate is lolgg.

I'm not really seeing how Poliwrath and Golduck are "coming in with ease" if Blastoise has the Mimic set. Blastoise is slower than Golduck, but this doesn't really matter as the first Surf will only hit him for 107 on average. He'll easily be able to recover the damage later and turn the game into a protocol freeze war. Poliwrath is more diverse in terms of its movepool, but you should almost never have less than a 50% chance of copying Amnesia. And Blastoise is faster, too. As for Kingler, I've never really played in a UU metagame with him in it, but he is obviously one of the best.

I don't understand how Venomoth being able to switch in should deter somebody from using Blastoise. What is he switching into? Body Slam? Then he might get paralyzed and will have an even harder time at connecting. Venomoth can also switch into Golduck or Poliwrath, but that doesn't make them useless.

Just because Magneton can set up a revenge kill isn't that compelling to me, either. Golduck can be revenge killed if it switches into Blastoise's Body Slam, gets paralyzed, and then you switch into Pinsir. At the very least, Golduck will have to find a fortuitous moment to Rest off the damage. As for Electabuzz, would you really want to waste him like that? Blastoise isn't as important as Electabuzz; it wouldn't be a burden to deal like 95% to it at the expense of a complementary Pokemon. Blastoise is a good complement to other Pokemon that

It seems like Fearow isn't used very often, which is why I didn't mention the ability to switch into it (I've never played UU here; only judging from the rankings). But if Kabutops is popular, then Thunderbolt on Raticate can 3HKO it. Everything that has Body Slam in UU will also have a move that can hit Kabutops for at least neutral damage; and, for a Swords Dance user, I wouldn't be so liberal in switching in to a move that inflicts paralysis 1/3rd of the time. Kabutops, unlike Blastoise, has no bulk whatsoever.

If the Mimic set works, Blastoise doesn't need his other moves. The game will come down to who gets the freeze, and what the opponent has left afterwards. You don't need Body Slam and Earthquake when you'll be killing everything in one and two hits.
I don't consider that Blastoise to be the most important member of a UU team. He's a sweeper that can easily kill a Pokemon, and only has one easily exploited weakness. Bearing this fact in mind, I've often used both Golduck and Blastoise on the same team. Water is a good defensive type; there's no reason why you should feel impeded by using two.

[Crystal_]

If we're talking about NBS glitch Surf IBeam Rest Mimic Blastoise, then Vaporeon is better in every regard (or Dewgong which can't be frozen). But anyway, I don't like considering that glicth, because it doesn't really exist in-game, and will be fixed when PO implements RBY.

I don't really see how UU is based on switching. Ground switching into electric, or electric into water or something similar happens on every meta where shit can't KO everything in 1 shot. I'd only say a stall team is based on switching, but stalls don't exist in RBY anyway.

And I think people here are comparing Kabutops with Pinsir, but the more reasonable comparison will be Kabutops/Pinsir with Kingler. And it's easy, Kingler is better.

Another interesting comaprison is Blastoise vs Poliwrath. Poli Amnesias and sleeps; and that's saying quite a lot. Outspeeding Kingler is pretty useful, and not weak to Psychic and Fly is there (but hardly matters), but I'd conclude Poliwrath almost completely outclasses Blastoise imo.
I'm a fan of Kingler on every UU team, because it is the best, which leaves me with 2 waters. Then i'm probably using Golduck too, or even Vap, because it's general defensive uses like Tangela/Venomoth/Grounds/Fires/even going 1on1 with electabuzz are pretty good.

The thing is that there are 4 waters that I would always use over Blastoise, so I don't really see where to use him.

[WaterWizard]

GGFan,

What does Blastoise do better than Vaporeon? The only thing I can think of is Counter, which he doesn't even do well due to his high defence. Vaporeon is a much more fearsome opponent and she does better vs Buzz throughout the match. And, as Crystal says, if you are doing the Mimic set, she is hands down better than Blastoise.

As Crystal says, there are plenty of better aquatics.

Also, Blastoise has more than just Buzz to worry about. To name a few: Tangela, Kingler, Porygon, Raticate...

[Crystal_]

Well, Blastoise still hits amnesiers for +20% damage, and outspeeds Poliwrath and Kingler, but as I said, I'd actually use other things over it. Blastoise has too much competition.

[GGFan]

Both Blastoise and Vaporeon reach 999 special with Amnesia. Vaporeon has more vitality, but unless I missed something, won't be surviving anything that Blastoise can't on the physical side. However, it's worth noting that Blastoise survives Super Fang+Hyper Beam on average, whereas Vaporeon dies.

As for Counter, it has quite a few uses:
~2HKOs Pinsir after Slash and Surf
~OHKOs Raticate after Super Fang
~2HKOs Kabutops after Slash and Earthquake
~Can switch into Fearow's Hyper Beam and OHKO if Fearow took any damage prior

Where is Blastoise having trouble with Tangela and Fearow where Vaporeon doesn't? Despite having less special, Blastoise still 2HKOs both on average with Blizzard. Moreover, his extra defense makes him better against Fearow than Vaporeon anyway. In regards to Kingler, Vaporeon is slower than him and can only use Acid Armor while he sets up--not very productive, in my opinion. Blastoise isn't much better, but he will at least pressure Kingler into setting up.

Blastoise's Earthquake does more damage than Vaporeon's Surf, so the argument that Vaporeon is more effective against Electabuzz isn't substantial enough. Thunderbolt can't 2HKO--which is great--but 1-on-1 matchups don't determine a Pokemon's usefulness. Electabuzz loses anyway if he switches into Body Slam and gets paralyzed.

Again, I've mostly played with Kingler banned, which makes Blastoise a more logical choice. Golduck outclasses Poliwrath as an Amnesia user; you can use two, but I feel that to be a bit gratuitous, especially in a metagame where Haze is kind of viable (Weezing makes good use of it). So, I would rather use a sweeper that doesn't need to set up. Of the Pokemon posted here, Vaporeon (maybe I missed something; referring to memory here) can't 2HKO anything that Blastoise can (Blastoise can 2HKO Electabuzz with Hydro Pump+EQ).

Also, where does Wigglytuff rank for you people? It probably has the best movepool in the metagame, and is diverse in its usability.

[WaterWizard]

What moveset would you consider standard for him? He can only do so much, and everything he does is fairly mediocre.

As for defense indexes, his physical is a bit higher than Vap's, but her special index is farrrr higher. Here is the physical index, with the others for context.

Poliwrath 110304
Tangela 109224
Blastoise 107578 <--------------
Kangaskhan 106554
Moltres 106474
Exeggutor 105324
Rhyhorn 104544
Nidoqueen 104176
Marowak 102714
Graveler 102664
Kingler 102664
Zapdos 102644
Muk 102424
Tauros 101664
Vaporeon 100934 <--------------
Gyarados 100608
Kabutops 99484
Pinsir 99234

Here is the special index:

Chansey 216524
Mewtwo 168490
Vaporeon 147234
...
...
...
Tangela 99234
Arcanine 98814
Blastoise 96748

Vap can use AA if she's worried about defense, which of course makes her the strongest physical pokemon in the game. But it's not really necessary. As for special, yes they can both get to 999, but Vaporeon's critical hits will hurt a LOT more than Blastoise's, and likewise she takes less from crits than he does. And that is assuming water/ice hits which are resisted. Consider other scenarios where it's not 999. We have Psychic, Thunderbolt, Mega Drain, also absorbing Fire Blast from Charizard is important, and Crab Hammer is important too.

Aaaaaanda you're wrong about Super Fang + Hyper Beam from Raticate. It doesn't 2HKO either of them. HB does a max of 49% to Vap, and 46% to Blastoise. So he's 3HKOing both of them. Meanwhile, Vap can 2hko Raticate with Sur,f which Blastoise doesn't come close to doing.

The Electabuzz T-bolt thing is a huge part of the metagame and is one of the biggest boons of Vaporeon's special. She takes up to 48%, whereas Blastoise takes up to 68%! That is a huge difference. EQ is nice, but not when you die first. Blastoise can also be 1hko'd with a crit, which Vap doesn't fear.

~

I'm not trying to be a downer, I'm just saying Vap is used way more often for good reason. However, perhaps we just haven't seen Blastoise used properly; that wouldn't be too much of a surprise. Maybe he'll be proven in the next UU tournament.

~

Wigglytuff was put in NU due to a complete lack of usage, which we assumed meant (and didn't really verify) she was ill-equipped for the UU metagame. Her very poor stats and typing make her pretty unappealing when Venomoth can double powder much more quickly. Still, Counter and STAB Hyper Beam are appealing if you can pull it off... I've never seen her be used in UU, except when I myself used her a couple times in 2009. Perhaps she has unlocked potential that I just haven't discovered. I'd love to see someone bring her to good usage.

[Isa]

While talking about NU's, what about Machamp in UU?

[Crystal_]

Poliwrath isn't outclassed by Golduck. Hypnosis, Earthquake, Submission, Psychic, and also counters (in fact Poliwrath doesn't really need to use Amnesia). However, I don't really see how Blastoise could ever be worth using over Poliwrath imo. Outspeeding Kingler is great, but that's all. Fearrow is pretty bad.

But yea, Vap is pretty mediocre. I'll give you that.

And don't forget there are only four moves. If you use Counter (anyway, youll actually be using it with success like 5% of the battles?) you no longer can Surf/Blizzard/Slam/EQ. And Beam is great too but it's the same.

And AA Vap is worthless imo. Kingler still outpaces you.

[Zilch]

I've never really used Machamp in UU, but I can imagine his poor speed would be problematic, not to mention Submission sucks. Stick with Bubblebeam Raticate if you need a physical Pokemon that can take on Graveler, and just switch to a grass/ground for Electabuzz.

...but what about Kabutops?

Nobody uses Kabutops.

[Consumptus]

What exactly is it about Dewgong (or Netbattle) that makes him top UU in Netbattle?

[t3h Icy]

The Mimic glitch and Freeze immunity.

[Isa]

Being a 100% counter to Golduck is pretty impressive.

[Zilch]

Mimic Dewgong can completely stonewall the standard Amnesia/Ice Beam/Surf/Rest Golduck set, but the mixed sweeper Poliwrath sets can trip him up a bit if he mimics Earthquake or whatever physical move Poliwrath happens to be carrying.

Without Mimic, Dewgong is sort of a middling UU. STAB Blizzard is nice, but he can't do much besides use STAB moves due to his somewhat poor Attack and lack of an adequate supporting movepool; basically, a worse Cloyster that can't blow up.

[WaterWizard]

I mean, Poliwrath can't beat Dewgong unless he uses Submission. Even with +6, he's doing 0.25 with Ice Beam, so roughly 15-17%, with no chance to freeze. Dewgong merely waits for him to run out of PP and then tag-teams with a swords dancer.

[Isa]

How much does a Poliwrath EQ deal to Dewgong? With one or two CH's, it should be possible to beat Dewgong.

[Crystal_]

Hypnosis/Surf/Submission Poliwrath beats Dewgong.

[Isa]

But loses to Golduck, I'd assume?

[WaterWizard]

EQ 5hkos. And the chance to CH is similar to Dewgong's chance to freeze Poliwrath.

Submission is a 2HKO.

[Zilch]

I consider Electabuzz to be a greater threat than Dewgong, so I've always gone with EQ Poli.

[Crystal_]

I always use 4 of Amnesia/Psychic/Ice Beam/Hypnosis/EQ

[t3h Icy]

I like Amnesia, Ice Beam, Rest, Body Slam. I don't use Poliwrath much anymore though.