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Dec 28, 2012 7:20:19 GMT -8
Post by GGFan on Dec 28, 2012 7:20:19 GMT -8
I see. I will not change your opinion, nor will you mine. Nonetheless, I thank you for presenting it in an intelligent, articulate way.
Slán agat, GGFan
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Jan 31, 2013 5:05:41 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Jan 31, 2013 5:05:41 GMT -8
Have you not seen a dragonite just wrap a paralysed team to death and finish each pokemon with hyper beam? I've seen people try that on me, even saying "GG" when their Dragonite achieved +2 without being statused. They achieved about as much success as people who lead with Slowbro and expect it to do something. They either Hyper Beamed Rhydon/Cloyster and died or didn't use Hyper Beam and ran out of PP. As an afterthought, if you think about the geometric expectation of how many turns you get to use clamp before you miss, it's 1/0.25 -1 = 3. Multiplying that by the base power of 175 means that, on average, you dish out 525 base power of damage before you miss a clamp... STABd... Please just give a moment to look at that number. 525 STABd = 787.5 Let's look at the expected damage against certain pokemon before cloyster misses a single clamp (let's assume cloyster is always faster): But Cloyster isn't always faster, because it's slow and doesn't have any paralysis moves. And it can't successfully pull off its U-turn gimmick against things that are faster than it. So if you predict a switch to Cloyster, bring in Zam or Starmie or whatever. Cloyster has to switch out or eat either T-wave or an unresisted special move - and the latter will wear down its health in short order if it keeps trying that trick. It has a 31% chance to hit 4 times successively, with an average base power equivalent to 420, and 630 when considering STAB (rough approximation). This helps him handle Tauros and Snorlax even better and I'd argue that it makes him a true counter given that Tauros/Snorlax is Paralyzed. If you let Cloyster be faster than your entire team, you have done this thing known as "screwing up". And yes, Cloyster is the best stop to Snorlax in existence, and the reason I run Thunderbolt on Tauros. However, it cannot be stressed enough that Cloyster is a fundamentally defensive 'mon - all it does is wall things (both by its inherent incredible Defense and the disabling effect of Clamp), try to freeze things, ease switches, and blow up. It's good, and probably the most useful 'mon after the 8 staples, but it's good only because of how well it holds a team together, NOT because of any threat on its own. You might as well ban Chansey because it singlehandedly makes a ton of pokemon non-viable. Slight quibble, Wrap has 32 PP. Hating AgiliWrap Dragonite for this reason is entirely understandable. I personally don't like it when I have to stall AgiNite to death (which doesn't happen all the time when I face it, but does occasionally), because it's boring as sin and most of the time isn't even particularly in doubt as to the outcome. That is, however, not the same as being overpowered, overcentralising, or anticompetitive.
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Feb 6, 2013 14:35:55 GMT -8
Post by samthedigital on Feb 6, 2013 14:35:55 GMT -8
Didn't he beat you then get banned after some shenanigans?
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Feb 6, 2013 15:09:26 GMT -8
Post by WaterWizard on Feb 6, 2013 15:09:26 GMT -8
lol
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Feb 6, 2013 17:51:38 GMT -8
Post by GGFan on Feb 6, 2013 17:51:38 GMT -8
Didn't he beat you then get banned after some shenanigans? Nope: End of turn #20 SamG's Exeggutor: 45% HP (Slp) GGFanTheMan's Tauros: 151 HP GGFanTheMan: lolololol Begin Turn #21 Tauros used Body Slam! (29% damage) --------------------------------- Exeggutor woke up! --------------------------------- End of turn #21 SamG's Exeggutor: 16% HP GGFanTheMan's Tauros: 151 HP GGFanTheMan: gfg Begin Turn #22 Tauros used Body Slam! (16% damage) Exeggutor fainted! End Battle! GGFanTheMan wins! Score: 0 to 6
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Feb 6, 2013 19:30:55 GMT -8
Post by samthedigital on Feb 6, 2013 19:30:55 GMT -8
Uhhh?
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Feb 24, 2013 8:52:40 GMT -8
Post by Golden Gyarados on Feb 24, 2013 8:52:40 GMT -8
Wrap isn't even that hard to counter. Simply get something faster in like zam or starmie and threaten with thunder wave, that'll force them out. Or, just throw out twaves more. Chansey is great at catching wrappers switching in with twaves. It's so hard to get wrappers in safely that it is nowhere near broken. I'm not sure why you insist that switching to something faster will threaten the Wrapper out. If Dragonite is Wrapping against me and I switch to Alakazam, Dragonite HAS to keep Wrapping, at least once, which on PO is essentially 5 times, and Dragonite is strong and Alakazam is frail, and I think most Dragonite users would take the 85% accuracy risk and keep wrapping against an Alakazam rather than fear 15% chance a Thunder Wave will make it through. Especially if Alakazam had any previous damage, switching Alakazam into a Wrap isn't going to threaten any of them. When Wrap is in progress, there is nothing "faster" to switch in and directly threaten.
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Feb 24, 2013 15:23:14 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 24, 2013 15:23:14 GMT -8
If you're talking about standard wrappers, then yes switching in zam or starmie is a good option. Wrappers don't want to stay in and get paralysed. The PO bug makes it more annoying, but a wrapper isn't going to let the wrap finish, because they want to abuse the free switch. Zam or starmie can simply recover off the damage later.
If you're talking about agility dragonite, you just PP stall him. He's basically hard countered by rocks and gengar.
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Feb 24, 2013 19:20:08 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 24, 2013 19:20:08 GMT -8
which on PO is essentially 5 times, Don't use the PO bug to make a point. Everyone agrees it needs to be fixed.
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Feb 24, 2013 22:15:10 GMT -8
Post by Isa on Feb 24, 2013 22:15:10 GMT -8
I was not aware that a Pokémon that naturally outspeeds Golem/Rhydon and has a move with perfect accuracy without drawbacks that OHKO's them was countered by those two Pokémon.
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Dre
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Posts: 397
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Feb 25, 2013 2:20:40 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 25, 2013 2:20:40 GMT -8
Apart from the fact that most dragonites run blizzard and hyper beam, running surf doesn't make too much difference.
You're never going to keep a rock in on dragonite. You use it for PP stalling, so you'll be switching it out as soon as it comes in. You also never let his last wrap finish on a rock, because then he'll just blizzard/surf. You want him to finish on something physically frail to lure him into hyper beaming so you're rock can catch it.
Even if the dragonite reads that switch and surfs instead and KOs your rock, he won't be much use after that, and that's almost a 1 for 1 trade which is probably in your favour, especially considering the fact that your rock took half of the wraps anyway.
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