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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 25, 2012 19:52:42 GMT -8
We've gone through ranking threads before, but I'm curious what people think make a Pokemon good? Or in other words, if you were to rank Pokemon from best to worst, what ways do you go about ordering them? Is it being the best in a particular role like Tauros? Is it the high versatility like Exeggutor? Is it the minimal requirements of viable use and being able to use a Pokemon any time like Snorlax? Is it excellent team synergy like Alakazam? Is it the greatest maximum potential, such as Jynx or Snorlax (or Wrapping Dragonite)? etc
Obviously, ranking Pokemon is based on a mix of them, but what do you personally value? I've always liked Pokemon with the highest consistency in being viable (ie, not Jolteon), and I value the total carnage each Pokemon does (number of KOs, damage, pressure, etc) so I generally rate Sleepers higher than non-Sleepers despite only one opposing Pokemon can be put to Sleep at a time. I don't really care for versatility so long as what the Pokemon does have is useful (Alakazam), and I don't care too much for maximum destruction if it's high-risk, high-reward (Aerodactyl, but he's super fun to play). Team synergy is also very important to me, but it's difficult to accurately rate which Pokemon are best at that.
Mind you this is not a ranking thread, but go ahead if you want. This topic is about what makes you rate a Pokemon high or low.
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Post by Agent Syrup on Dec 25, 2012 20:15:30 GMT -8
I rank them by how well they do against Magicarp.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Dec 25, 2012 20:34:33 GMT -8
I'd say consistency is really the best trait.
If you look at standard teams, they're full of pokemon who are consistent and realistically carry out their job every couple of battles.
They're not full of pokemon like kingler, who have the potential to do more damage, because the chances of a kingler sweep are quite small.
However, what is consistent is starting to change, as even this late on in RBY the meta is starting to change. Amnesia and reflect are everywhere now, to the point where the standard lax sets aren't even standard anymore. This makes pokemon like victreebell better, because they're more likely to fulfill their role given that they're more likely to face the pokemon they're there to deal with.
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Post by WaterWizard on Dec 25, 2012 23:03:34 GMT -8
In the simplest of terms, it's a combination of typing, movepool, and stats.
Take Exeggutor, the best pokemon in OU: He has fantastic defensive typing (the best?) and great offensive typing too. He has a very diverse movepool that allows him to run a number of useful and unique movesets, and he has incredible stat distribution.
These same three areas apply to everyone, but with differing combinations. You don't have to be dazzling in all three areas to be great (e.g. Dugtrio, Jolteon) as long as you strongly shine in at least one area.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Dec 25, 2012 23:59:45 GMT -8
I think saying eggy is the best pokemon in OU is a pretty big call.
Firstly, it's typing isn't that great offensively because it doesn't get razor leaf and psychic can't break though most special pokemon in the meta.
Secondly, it's value drops considerably once it has slept something and goldon is out of the way.
The way I see it, a pokemon that you're willing to let take sleep or up isn't the most valuable pokemon on your team, because if it was you would want to keep it around.
It's certainly more replaceable than say, tauros or snorlax. I'm not even sure if it's the best grass type in the game. It has stiff competition from victreebell with razor leaf and wrap.
I'd say snorlax is the best pokemon in OU. He has the potential to sweep entire teams given the minimal conditions he needs. Unlike tauros, he can do it early-game to healthy pokemon, and doesn't need to be protected until late-game.
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 26, 2012 1:21:37 GMT -8
It's certainly more replaceable than say, tauros or snorlax. I'm not even sure if it's the best grass type in the game. I'd say snorlax is the best pokemon in OU. He has the potential to sweep entire teams given the minimal conditions he needs. Err, what? Exeggutor is definitely the best Grass type Pokemon, maybe not for specifically Grass uses though (similar to Starmie/Lapras and Water). For Snorlax, the only potential he has at sweeping entire teams is if the opposing team is all damaged and Paralyzed (or less since he can afford to take a hit or two), but in that case, most any other Pokemon could sweep anyway. Don't forget that despite the higher Attack power, Tauros does more damage on average due to CHs. Snorlax is great no doubt though, and I'd argue he's the has the highest consistency for going at least one-for-one (excluding Sleepers). Edit: Re-worded.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Dec 26, 2012 4:00:29 GMT -8
STDLax can sweep. =p
I value power and coolness. GYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Post by longfellow on Dec 26, 2012 4:59:05 GMT -8
Take Exeggutor, the best pokemon in OU: He has fantastic defensive typing (the best?) That probably goes to Jynx with Ice/Psychic.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Dec 26, 2012 5:09:49 GMT -8
You're weak to Rock moves though (matters when you're paralyzed, as Jyx is OHKO'd by Rock Slide but not EQ), so it has its weaknesses, and you only resist two common attacking types, whereas Exeggutor resists Ground, Psychic, Water and Electric, which is pretty big, all of them. Being weak to Ice is a major downside, Flying is kinda eh, but on the whole, his resistances are super important. Without Eggy resisting EQ and taking neutral damage from Rock Slide, Rhydon/Golem would be everywhere, as their best defensive counter is suddenly Starmie, who takes ~50% from EQ and doesn't enjoy switching in on Body Slams.
Jynx lacks weaknesses defensively, but Exeggutor provides key resistances, making his defensive typing better in my opinion - especially given the vastly superior stats given to Eggy (only having worse speed, which doesn't matter too much given the scarcity of good Pokémon with a speed between Jynx and Exeggutor).
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Dec 26, 2012 5:25:27 GMT -8
It's certainly more replaceable than say, tauros or snorlax. I'm not even sure if it's the best grass type in the game. I'd say snorlax is the best pokemon in OU. He has the potential to sweep entire teams given the minimal conditions he needs. Err, what? Exeggutor is definitely the best Grass type Pokemon, maybe not for specifically Grass uses though (similar to Starmie/Lapras and Water). For Snorlax, the only potential he has at sweeping entire teams is if the opposing team is all damaged and Paralyzed (or less since he can afford to take a hit or two), but in that case, most any other Pokemon could sweep anyway. Don't forget that despite the higher Attack power, Tauros does more damage on average due to CHs. Snorlax is great no doubt though, and I'd argue he's the has the highest consistency for going at least one-for-one (excluding Sleepers). Edit: Re-worded. Victreebell is capable of a lot more than eggy and counters pokemon that can be difficult to counter (eg. slowbro and to an extent snorlax). It's just that bell is harder to use because you have to protect it a lot more. Bell functions differently to eggy, being a lot more offensive and fragile, but it's unlikely that you'd run them on the same team. No, lax doesn't need teams to be crippled. You're thinking of standard lax. Things like amnesia+reflect lax can wipe out 4+ pokemon in certain conditions and with some luck.
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Post by Crystal_ on Dec 26, 2012 7:40:01 GMT -8
Victreebell walling Snorlax? This is one of the most nonsense things I've heard in a while lol. To counter something you must be able to switch into it.
On the topic itself, Tauros and Snorlax are a step above all the other mons. There is no reason not to use them in a rby team, they are consistently superior to anything that could be replacing them. They are instant threats. Once eggy is done with sleep, its only threat is explosion. You can't make it make a bigger impact than that. If your opponent wants to, the best thing egg can attempt to do is exploding into zam/starmie/whatever. And it may even run into bad matchups like Jynx. It won't win games on its own like Snorlax and especially Tauros can. Egg walls golem/rhydon for quite a lot of time, but then what are you going to do? Psychic the Alakazam switch-in? Explode on it and then you no longer have your Golem/Rhydon/Snorlax(sorta) check? Of course, you can (should) capitalize on these zam/chansey switches with sweepers (usually after paralysing them), but then guess who are the stars of the show: Snorlax and Tauros.
On the Snorlax vs Tauros topic, if I had to say which is better, my vote goes to Tauros. Snorlax can sometimes be played around with eggs/rocks/lapras/cloyster, but doing that against tauros is a lot more difficult. Plus, Tauros' "consistency" is underrated given the "save tauros for later" mindset. It can go 1 on 1 against basically everything in the game the way snorlax can, and due to tauros' offense it forces the opponent to stay in and guarantee the trade in the worst case scenario (something that say, egg or lapras or whatever can't always guarantee because the opponent can switch back a lot more easily). A little luck with Tauros wins a lot of games and the ability to clean <50% pokemon like nothing the way Tauros can is unmacthed, and Tauros is by far the best at forcing them to stay in. Ultimately, as I said, there is no reason not to use both pokemon anyway. Snorlax's ability to capitalize on Chanseys in unmatched as well and your opponent won't be able to switch stuff into snorlax forever. And it explodes with the strongest explosion in the game.
Anyway, Dre, it's been already some time since you made Amnesiarefelctlax sound like it is broken and amazing and these things. This whole year maybe I have faced one or two. If it was that much of an issue people wouldve started running reflect slowbro or cloyster or more gengars and other stuff just to deal with it. Prove it is as strong as you say it is. Prove it to other people, win games with it, win important tournaments with it, so that more people start using it and preparing their teams for it and we all can acknowledge that snorlax set as a very top threat. To be honest, if you can't do that you are just talking theory. Amnesiareflect snorlax is a forgotten set right now. Prove that it is as good as you are saying it is. If it is, you should be able to prove it playing. That's how good sets are discovered and popularized.
And yeah, that's my post #1000. As shitty as it gets.
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Post by brookman on Dec 26, 2012 9:30:18 GMT -8
1. can it 1/2hko chansey?? 2. can it freee?? 3. is it fast
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 26, 2012 13:33:52 GMT -8
Specialized Snorlaxs are nowhere near consistent with sweeping teams, otherwise it'd be the standard over Physical Snorlaxs.
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Post by redemption on Dec 26, 2012 14:22:43 GMT -8
Tanklax is great for suprising people. Not consistent enough to win every battle however. Standard lax is still better however. Also, what makes a pokemon good or even great in my opinion is how well it damages my opponet's team in general. For that reason I do not personally like using chansey due to it not meshing well with my playstyle.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Dec 27, 2012 18:55:08 GMT -8
Tanklaxes in their various forms basically are the standard now. Tanklaxes are more popular on the ladder. Pretty much every lax I see on the ladder now is a tanklax. I haven't seen a standard lax in absolutely ages.
Bell can come in on lax when it rests, then threatens with sleep and wrap. It can't come in on standard lax, but that's why I said 'to an extent', and tanklaxes are more common nowadays anyway. Besides, you can just switch tanklax into standard lax anyway and have a good chance of beating it,
I've had a lot of success with tanklax. I've swept 4+ healthy pokemon on many occasions. The biggest problem I've run into (apart from gengar and counter chansey) are other tanklaxes and slowbros. Tanklax beats standard lax 1v1 most of the time.
We might as well not discuss anything if we're going to say 'prove it in tournaments or it isn't legit'. We might as well just post when something is successfull, and leave it at that. Besides, I've had a lot of success with it anyway. I even posted a log ages where I put a massive dent in Earthworm's team with it.
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Post by Crystal_ on Dec 28, 2012 4:13:59 GMT -8
stats.pokemon-online.eu/RBY%20OU/143.htmlThat snorlax set is at 6'94%. Considering snorlax is at 52'47% usage overall, that leaves us with around 3'5% teams running that lax. That's around 1/29 teams running that snorlax. You can't possibly tell me you haven't seen a standard snorlax in ages or that you always see tanklaxes. Don't know if you are including every kind of rest snorlax in your first paragraph when you say tanklaxes, but anyway, the set we are talking about is just amesia+reflect+rest. I've run 3 attacks rest or reflect rest lots of times. The second paragraph didn't make sense. Anything can come into snorlax when it rests, then every pokemon is a snorlax counter to an extent? And what the hell is wrap doing here anyway? letting Snorlax wake up at 90%? And sleep is never a threat. In RBY sleep doesn't work like that. You've already landed it. Waiting to land sleep in rby is handicapping yourself. And what anyway? Even if that scenario happens, okay, you force snorlax out, but you are gonna put the same alakazam/starmie/egg/whatever pokemon to sleep no matter if you do it in turn 3 or turn 30. Waiting for no reason basically limits your para spread and means bothering about one extra pokemon for a lot more turns. I guess your point was that razor leaf gets past reflect, but considering how uncommon reflect+rest snorlax is compared to standard snorlax, that's not really a valid point because you are completely exaggerating things. And considering the few snorlaxes that run rest, okay, they rest but... you need to get that snorlax to rest. So we are talking about countering a very specific set at a specific situation that requires a lot of previous damage. Come on. That's not the definition of a counter or a counter to an extent at all. Okay, you have had a lot of success with that snorlax set. I have too. I never said that snorlax was bad. It's a very good set on the second best rby pokemon. But apparently what I am supposed to argue against is that: 1. tanklax is by far the most common snorlax set and 2. victreebel counters snorlax to an extent? Whatever. Completely unrelated to our success anyway. I've played many battles where I've put massive dents with kingler. Heck, I remeber once I did that with Poliwrath even. Snorlax is completely superior to these two so that log hardly proves anything. I'm not saying that tanklax can not be as good as you are selling it, but you need to prove it. Right now almost nobody even considers that set and its existence. spl, rby2k10 anniversary tournament or any other relevant tournament you can think of. Make a name of yourself thanks to that set. Not only tournaments, but beating good and well-known players with it also works. That's how you could bump up tanklax's popularity provided the set (and you, but I'm pretty sure you are) is good enough for that. So far, all you have proved about that set is this thread. But only you, me and 3 more people really know or care about it. Show it to more people, that's what I'm talking about. But ladder will hardly work though. Ladder contains only a very small part of all the good rby players and basically nobody cares about it. I know what I'm asking you is very hard considering how dead rby is now, but if that set is as legit as you are saying it is, beating almost everything and sweeping teams, then you should be able to prove it and make it very popular among the best of players. Good luck.
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Post by GGFan on Dec 28, 2012 7:53:51 GMT -8
The problem with these "well-known tournaments" is that they don't happen often and are thus too small of a sample size. They don't reflect a player's skill or the popularity of a certain set.
Now then, I would say that GSCLax (I must give credit to the inventor of the set, SamG, who gave it this name) reached its peak in early 2011, when I used it as Hector Gold. I won numerous games in a row thanks to Snorlax alone, and lost every here and there only because of horrible hax. One of the losses was a memorable 200+ turn with Nitro that came down to the very end. I don't think that the set will ever be as popular as the standard Snorlax of Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Earthquake/Selfdestruct, but it's a force to be reckoned with if used properly.
However, contrary to some people's belief, there are numerous ways to combat this set. Snorlax will never be able to outstall both Starmie and Chansey, and Goldon will have several chances of landing a crit Earthquake; failing that, they will at least make Snorlax consume several PP. Nonetheless, if you can kill, say, two Pokemon with it, then Snorlax will have done his job. He certainly doesn't need to sweep to be effective, either: you can, for example, a force a switch, land a paraslam and come back later.
Some technique is required when using GSCLax, which probably deters some from using it. As the #3 ranked player on the PO ladder, I can tell you that I saw the set at least once, maybe twice. The person tried to use it too early and thus failed. However, the failure was a result of my exposure to the set and experience with it, whereas somebody more unaware may have been defeated eventually.
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Post by Crystal_ on Dec 28, 2012 8:36:25 GMT -8
Gotta agree with the usefulness of the hit-and-run option. Some people tend to think that rest snorlax sets are meant to switch only once, set up and never switch back, similarly to the way slowbro is played. But unlike slowbro, snorlax actually poses a threat without setting up (unless you run only slam and your opponent has golem/rhydon/gengar). When I first started testing rest snorlax (rest reflect bslam eq), two things made me want to use it, the ability to capitalize on chanseys a lot better, and this double way it can be played. I recently switched to SD over Reflect, but I've been sucessful with both sets. That last set works a bit differently though, it doesn't set up, but I found that without both amnesia+refelct is sometimes not possible to rest effectively (especially when chansey is gone or I get too predictable at using rest), and SD is obviously a great move on itself.
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Post by Crystal_ on Dec 28, 2012 9:17:08 GMT -8
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 28, 2012 10:05:17 GMT -8
Honestly, any generic Alakazam shouldn't have too much trouble against Specialized Snorlaxes. With Reflect up and enough spam of Psychic, eventually the CHs will be too much to keep up with.
As said, Snorlax can't stall out both Chansey/Starmie. Anything with Counter beats it such as Jynx, Chansey, some Alakazams, and other Snorlaxes. And if things are really desperate, enough hits followed by Explosion/Selfdestruct sets up for a revenge kill with the next Pokemon.
It can be annoying and can surprise people, but it's really not that hard to deal with, lol. I'd only be concerned with variants that also use a Special move (most commonly Ice Beam), but then it's lacking either Body Slam or Reflect, and you counter based on what it's missing.
Or just use Gengar, lol.
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Post by Crystal_ on Dec 28, 2012 11:09:27 GMT -8
Assuming Body Slam is the attacking move, with some fps it can actually. Doesn't need a lot of luck. Like, two fps in a row or a crit and a fp gets it. If they want to go for the freeze instead of para then you'll only need one timely fp. I think Snorlax can even just stall them with rest since they'll be forced to attack eventually and rest gives you two free turns without wasting pp. But yeah, then you only have pp for one though.
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Post by kidchameleon on Dec 28, 2012 16:34:45 GMT -8
I'll just stop the tauros and snorlax fan club right here, Alakazam is the best gentlemen
He has good match ups against most pokemons, sorry bros, but you can't defeat that psychic sp fell crit + reflect + para of your own
1 on 1, that motherfucker cans defeat anyone, behold its power
And besides, he got a badass skin, come on, he's bending spoons
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Post by Dexter on Dec 28, 2012 16:46:26 GMT -8
Three things
1) If the game is close 2) If every single turn was important in determining the outcome (or a series of turns if a stall war is involved). It just really bugs me when there's a bunch of fluff that ends up not mattering in the long run. 3) Luck is minimal, or rather luck related events ends up following their expected probability. A tauros that attacks 10 times is expected to crit one or two or three times, but if it crits 7 times and it matters each time that's kind of eh =\
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Dec 28, 2012 16:49:17 GMT -8
I still don't see why you refuse to recognize the power of GYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Post by Dexter on Dec 28, 2012 16:51:37 GMT -8
poh I misread the title as what makes a pokemon GAME good
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Post by GGFan on Dec 28, 2012 17:10:18 GMT -8
Assuming Body Slam is the attacking move, with some fps it can actually. Doesn't need a lot of luck. Like, two fps in a row or a crit and a fp gets it. If they want to go for the freeze instead of para then you'll only need one timely fp. I think Snorlax can even just stall them with rest since they'll be forced to attack eventually and rest gives you two free turns without wasting pp. But yeah, then you only have pp for one though. Yes, but Snorlax has a horrible crit rate and the fatal Body Slam must happen at the right moment. Once Snorlax starts using Body Slam every turn in a row, Chansey should use Softboiled every until Snorlax is fpd. Snorlax will need three fps in a row, or two and a crit, to kill Chansey. This could happen eventually, but it's very unlikely that you'll pull it off twice. Nonetheless, killing Starmie/Chansey and retreating with the other paralyzed would be a job well done.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Dec 28, 2012 17:25:28 GMT -8
Crystal- Can't stay much because I'm on my phone, but bell can come in on a boosted tanklax when it rests and actually threaten it. Anyone can come in when it's sleeping but most won't threaten it. I said it can't come in on standard lax, but it doesn't matter because standardlax is much easier to deal with.
When I said tanklax I meant all tanking lazes, not just amnesia-reflect ones. Last night was the first time I ran into a standard one for ages.
Thing is, it's difficult to define what the meta actually is nowadays. The main competitive pokemon community doesn't care about RBY, the only competitive ladder is full of bad players, and you have a side community of good players who play a side-meta. It's hard to pin-point which of those represents the meta.
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 28, 2012 17:44:53 GMT -8
I think we should clarify what we both mean by "metagame" since I think we're talking about two different things. If in your definition, the metagame is whatever is popular at the moment, then yeah, maybe you can body players with Special Snorlaxes and I'd agree with that. I use the term to refer what's the most viable overall, which is much more static (especially for a game as old as RBY). Special Snorlaxes kind of don't make the cut for that and standard Snorlax is much better in general.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Dec 28, 2012 18:17:10 GMT -8
I wonder how many players on the PO ladder would be tripped up by a non-lead non-sleeper Gengar. TBolt/MDrain/Night Shade/Explosion was the set I ran, and it caught many an unsuspecting exploder and Rhylem by total surprise.
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Post by GGFan on Dec 28, 2012 19:48:27 GMT -8
Wow, those statistics highlight how dead RBY really is (I'm exaggerating here when I say "dead," but not by much). Anyways, to be fair to some of the ladder players, the worst are in the bottom ranks for a reason. I have played #1, #3, #5, #7, #8, and #10 and wouldn't say that any of them are horrible. What you see more often, however, is inexperience. But at least some of them have shown promise and want to get better. If there is a "side metagame," it certainly wouldn't constitute a once-a-year tournament because that's too small of a sample size. Also, from what I recall, Wrap was banned in the last tournament. Smogon may allow it, but people from there come here too so it isn't much of a dynamic.
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