Why is Jolteon OU?

[magic9mushroom]

Can someone explain this to me? Zapdos is clearly OU because its hard counters are specifically Rock/Grounds and both of the good ones are OU, but Jolteon is utterly terrorised by Sandslash and can't switch into EQ.

[Agent Syrup]

I heard Jolteon and Articuno centralized the gameplay... but perhaps it was them in combination not nessissarily both of them individually.

Though it should be noted that Zapdos is weak to Ice moves which are held by both Tauros the Mighty and Chansey the Wall!

[WaterWizard]

This is so June 2010...

[t3h Icy]

Jolteon is a beast, though in more cases slightly subpar to Zapdos, the same with how Rhydon and Golem are related.

Also, tiers are sorted so that each tier on its own is playable. Jolteon and Articuno are significantly better than everything else when in BL.

And Sandslash doesn't really matter is nobody uses him, lol. That's like saying Lapras is bad because Magneton beats her and can't switch into Thunderbolt. Referring to BL though, there are a ton of defensive aquatics that give Sandslash too much trouble to really be useful. Even purely just as a counter to Jolteon, isn't too viable. Jolteon's pretty solid in OU anyway.

[Agent Syrup]

If only there was a mod to make ALL pokemon viable so these silly debates could end.... if only....

[lilith]

sand-attack too stronk

[Dre]

It's a bit confusing to have a pokemon in OU when it isn't 'overused' at all, and simply because it's better than everything else in BL.


Doesn't sandslash/any ground in the game hard wall it? I'm not even sure I'd use it over raichu because of raichu's ability to hit grounds.

You can't say 'well zapdos is hard walled by them too, so should it be BL as well?' because zapdos actually is overused.

I just think that a pokemon that isn't overused and is counterable in BL should be BL.

[t3h Icy]

Jolteon is in the uncommon group of OU Pokemon like Persian, Articuno, Hypno (BL), and Slowbro.

Sandslash counters Jolteon in BL just like how Hitmonlee counters Chansey in OU. Sure, it works, but there are too many easy ways around it. Sandslash could potentially Swords Dance on a switch, but he usually only gets one hit in before dying being weak to Ice which is on most things and being one of the slowest Pokemon.

[GGFan]

Jolteon is used as much as Lapras and not much less than Jynx and Zapdos, so usage isn't an issue. It's always been more common than Persian and Articuno, too.

[WaterWizard]

Jolteon is commonly used in standard play. He has the use and the usage to merit the OU ranking, just like Persian, Slowbro, Articuno, Rhydon, Lapras, and Zapdos. Stats and consistent use mean they are welcome in OU.

Why are we arguing about this? Jolteon (and all the rest mentioned above) belong in OU. Play with them and see.

In my opinion, the canon is closed. There is no compelling reason to demote anyone from OU.

EDIT: some time this month I'll make a post with all the quotes affirming Jolteon (and maybe Articuno) from the past three years. There are many, by all sorts of players.

Here is one example:

[GGFan]

However, in the off-tournament scene, wrap moves continued to be uniformly banned from play, on principle.

It's sad whenever somebody thinks that Smogon invented tournaments.

[Dre]

Jolteon is nowhere near as used nowadays as things like lapras, rhydon, slowbro, victreebell, cloyster, dragonite. Heck even articuno is probably more used than jolteon nowadays.

You can say 'lolPOscrubs' but the reality is PO is the main source of competitive RBY today. I hope you don't think that the usage statistics of the like the 5 high-level players here hold more weight than the rest of the RBY community, because that's kinda arrogant.

You have to ask yourself how jolteon, a pokemon hardly used anymore, consistently provides more of a threat in OU than other BLs. Heck, even stuff like kingler can be more threatening than him. I don't really see what distinguishes him from other BLs.

[Dexter]

Jolteon is good. Kingler is also pretty good. A lot of pokemon are actually surprisingly good in OU but you have to draw the line somewhere and we drew it at Jolteon.

[GGFan]

Mar 5, 2013 16:31:21 GMT -8 Dre said:

Jolteon is nowhere near as used nowadays as things like lapras, rhydon, slowbro, victreebell, cloyster, dragonite. Heck even articuno is probably more used than jolteon nowadays.

You can say 'lolPOscrubs' but the reality is PO is the main source of competitive RBY today. I hope you don't think that the usage statistics of the like the 5 high-level players here hold more weight than the rest of the RBY community, because that's kinda arrogant.

You have to ask yourself how jolteon, a pokemon hardly used anymore, consistently provides more of a threat in OU than other BLs. Heck, even stuff like kingler can be more threatening than him. I don't really see what distinguishes him from other BLs.

stats.pokemon-online.eu/RBY%20OU/index.html

That's partially why I said that Jolteon is used as much as Lapras.

Speaking of the PO userbase, I've been #2 on the ladder with three different accounts and I can verify that Jolteon is at least as common as Lapras, if not moreso. It's definitely used more than Cloyster, Articuno, Dragonite, and Persian as well, but not by much.

I've seen Victreebel once, MAYBE twice.

I wouldn't consider Slowbro an "uncommon" OU at all; on the contrary, many noobs use it to try to make up for their lack of skill. In my last 41 games I've fought more Slowbros than Starmies, Rhydons, and maybe even Golems.

[t3h Icy]

Mar 5, 2013 16:31:21 GMT -8 Dre said:

Jolteon is nowhere near as used nowadays as things like lapras, rhydon, slowbro, victreebell, cloyster, dragonite. Heck even articuno is probably more used than jolteon nowadays.

You can say 'lolPOscrubs' but the reality is PO is the main source of competitive RBY today. I hope you don't think that the usage statistics of the like the 5 high-level players here hold more weight than the rest of the RBY community, because that's kinda arrogant.

You have to ask yourself how jolteon, a pokemon hardly used anymore, consistently provides more of a threat in OU than other BLs. Heck, even stuff like kingler can be more threatening than him. I don't really see what distinguishes him from other BLs.

Tiers are based on viability at top level play, not necessary popularity, though the two tend to go hand-in-hand. For example, Jigglypuff is #3 in Melee and is a rarely used character comparatively to all the other Top/High tiers.

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 5, 2013 13:20:05 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

Jolteon is commonly used in standard play. He has the use and the usage to merit the OU ranking, just like Persian, Slowbro, Articuno, Rhydon, Lapras, and Zapdos. Stats and consistent use mean they are welcome in OU.

Zapdos is better than Jolteon.

(Tauros is better than Persian, too. But Persian is generally used as a supplement to Tauros, whereas using two Electric-types in the same team is skirting the border of viability.)

Why are we arguing about this? Jolteon (and all the rest mentioned above) belong in OU. Play with them and see.

In my opinion, the canon is closed.

That list was ripped from this one, and thus cannot be used to support it.

[Dre]

Tier lists are based on ability at high level play and usage. Jolteon doesn't really have either. He's not really more of a threat than other BLs.

Bell and Cloy should be OU because of threat alone.

[Dre]

Actually that's wrong. Tier lists were traditionally based only on usage, hence the name 'overused'. Ubers was traditionally simply for legendaries. The lower tiers were simply meant to provide metas where you could use pokemon that were unviable in OU.

What I meant about Bell and Cloy being OU was that they have the viability. I think they will eventually get the usage when the wrap meta becomes more accepted and starts developing more.

[WaterWizard]

The 16 OU pokemon are there because they have the adequate stats and usage to be there. They are all used at high level play, and they all have the stats to back up their placing. Victreebel, Dragonite, and Cloyster would only be OU in a wrap metagame, otherwise they are just not on the same level as the other 16.

Hypno and Dugtrio are probably next in line for OU after the abovementioned. But there is no need to move them up; they aren't at the same level, nor are they used as often, nor do they upset BL with their current placement. They are welcome to play in OU, but there is no need to put them in the top tier (which would remove them from BL). Jolteon and Articuno are unwelcome in BL, they are used often in OU, and they have amazing stats and unique functions that no other pokes in OU (or elsewhere) can provide. They are part of the 16 OU pokemon.

Here's a question: why do you care that Jolteon and Articuno (and Persian?) are in OU? Why in the world are we even talking about this? The only reason I could see this being a relevant conversation is if you just *really* wanted them to be allowed to play in BL. Is that your motivation? If so, say so. There is no basis for excluding Jolteon and Articuno from OU.

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 5, 2013 22:17:19 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

The 16 OU pokemon are there because they have the adequate stats and usage to be there. They are all used at high level play, and they all have the stats to back up their placing. Victreebel, Dragonite, and Cloyster would only be OU in a wrap metagame, otherwise they are just not on the same level as the other 16.

Hypno and Dugtrio are probably next in line for OU after the abovementioned. But there is no need to move them up; they aren't at the same level, nor are they used as often, nor do they upset BL with their current placement. They are welcome to play in OU, but there is no need to put them in the top tier (which would remove them from BL). Jolteon and Articuno are unwelcome in BL, they are used often in OU, and they have amazing stats and unique functions that no other pokes in OU (or elsewhere) can provide. They are part of the 16 OU pokemon.

Here's a question: why do you care that Jolteon and Articuno (and Persian?) are in OU? Why in the world are we even talking about this? The only reason I could see this being a relevant conversation is if you just *really* wanted them to be allowed to play in BL. Is that your motivation? If so, say so. There is no basis for excluding Jolteon and Articuno from OU.

When did I mention Articuno, or say that Persian shouldn't be OU?

And yes, I'd like to see a playable meta in which Jolteon doesn't flat-out suck, because it's a cool mon that makes surprisingly good use of the rare Bug and Fighting attacks. You act as though this were some heinous sin.

[WaterWizard]

Since Persian and Articuno fall below Jolteon in usage (at least in the small sample we have) I was just assuming Dre and other anti-Jolteon-in-OU people would include them as well.

Jolteon is much too strong in BL. He's great in OU, though. Ubers, too.

[t3h Icy]

Mar 5, 2013 22:36:16 GMT -8 magic9mushroom said:

And yes, I'd like to see a playable meta in which Jolteon doesn't flat-out suck

Jolteon is far from being terrible in OU. He outspeeds a ton of important Pokemon that Zapdos doesn't (Starmie, Tauros, Alakazam, and others), his CH chance is shy of a whole 6% higher, has a better match-up against Chansey, Starmie, and others (though Zapdos is on the winning side of them too, just not to the same level), and has a few uses with Sand-Attack, such as vs Exploders or uncertainty of switches. The main difference is the Ice weakness-less, where Jolteon only takes ~60% the percentage-based damage Zapdos does (or for example, an Ice attack that does 50% to Zapdos only does ~30% to Jolteon).

Jolteon's flaws compared to Zapdos is a worse match-up vs Tauros, Snorlax, less durability overall (so Jolteon can't switch into things as nicely), a slightly worse way of handling Exeggutor, lack of Light Screen, and other smaller things.

They're really comparable overall though. Just play carefully with Jolteon and don't jump into Rocks. Alternatively and unlike Zapdos, Jolteon can also function as a lead Pokemon using either Thunder Wave or Sand-Attack on turn 1, or switching to Exeggutor for free sleep should the opponent go to Golem/Rhydon.

He's not as brainless as Zapdos though and is harder to use since he's not just as much of a general-use Pokemon. Jolteon/Zapdos really is similar to Rhydon/Golem, but with more variety in uses and differences.

[Dre]

No WW, tiers were originally based only on usage, that's not debateable. You need to remember that competitive RBY was formulated before 2K10. You may have your own tiers on this site, but the tiering system that yours are modeled off used usage only. Ubers were for legendaries, which is why they don't play in OU, as RBY Ubers is basically OU with two extra pokemon.

Cloy and Bell deserve to be OU because wrap is the standard meta. They just don't have the usage at the moment.

How is jolteon too good for BL? He's hard countered by grounds, can't switch into too much, and becomes almost useless if he gets paralysed. Jolteon teams aren't automatically better than non-jolteon teams. If you used this logic any BL pokemon could be banned from BL.

Articuno and persian should definitely be BL. They don't have the usage and are a tier below the main OUs.

[t3h Icy]

Have you ever played BL before?

[Isa]

Mar 6, 2013 0:10:55 GMT -8 Dre said:

Cloy and Bell deserve to be OU because wrap is the standard meta. They just don't have the usage at the moment.

Go to PO and complain if you want to discuss Wrap metagame tier lists.

[WaterWizard]

Mar 6, 2013 0:37:03 GMT -8 t3h Icy said:

Have you ever played BL before?

Right?

[Dre]

Mar 6, 2013 1:28:52 GMT -8 Isa said:

Mar 6, 2013 0:10:55 GMT -8 Dre said:

Cloy and Bell deserve to be OU because wrap is the standard meta. They just don't have the usage at the moment.

Go to PO and complain if you want to discuss Wrap metagame tier lists.

The issue is that because 2K10 gave PO their tiers, and still have power in PO's RBY, 2K10's specific philosophies are affecting PO, which is the main source of competitive RBY. For example 2K10's tiers do not accommodate the standard meta, yet PO does.

I have no problem with the fact that you guys prefer a side-meta, and make your tiers and tourneys based on that. I don't mind if you ban jolteon from your BL tourneys. I just want don't want PO, which is the main source of competitive RBY, to be structured around 2K10 specific philosophies, and consequently have it 'ruined' (if you can call it that) for everyone else. So when I 'complain', that's what I'm taking issue with.

Admittedly I haven't played much BL, but you can't play that card. Every tier in RBY except OU and possibly Ubers is underexplored and underdeveloped.

I don't need to have played BL extensively to know that jolteon isn't too good there. No pokemon is too good in any tier, especially a pokemon that has counters other than itself. Mewtwo in NU isn't an instant-win because the opponent can simply use mewtwo as well. I mean, you'd be forced to run mewtwo in every battle, but you're also forced to run certain pokemon in OU, but they're not 'too good' for OU.

No pokemon can be too good for any tier because even if the opponent has no other counters apart from itself, as long as the opponent can run the same pokemon, it can be countered. The point of the lower tiers is to use pokemon that you can't use competitively in OU. Jolteon is one of those pokemon. It has low usage compared to the top OUs, and has similar competitive viability to other BLs. In terms of the traditional tiersing system, that would put jolteon in BL. In fact the only thing that matters in terms the traditional tiering system is its usage,

I don't want people to think I'm anti-2K10 or anything. I'm aligned ideologically with any specific site. I like a lot of 2K10 stuff, like the division into BL UU NU, Bo3/5 tourneys, and the updated/analysises.

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 6, 2013 2:28:57 GMT -8 Dre said:

I don't need to have played BL extensively to know that jolteon isn't too good there. No pokemon is too good in any tier, especially a pokemon that has counters other than itself. Mewtwo in NU isn't an instant-win because the opponent can simply use mewtwo as well. I mean, you'd be forced to run mewtwo in every battle, but you're also forced to run certain pokemon in OU, but they're not 'too good' for OU.

No pokemon can be too good for any tier because even if the opponent has no other counters apart from itself, as long as the opponent can run the same pokemon, it can be countered.

Wrong. Many pokemon don't check themselves. Tauros is a particularly good example, but it's far from the only one.

Additionally, beyond a certain level of centralisation the match comes down to a ditto. Mewtwo in NU would not be interesting because every single match would come down to the Mewtwo ditto freeze war, which is a coin-flip.

[Dre]

But two teams with tauros initially have an equal chance of winning. In the case where a pokemon can't switch into itself (and no other pokemon can, even though this scenario doesn't exist in RBY) then the person who got their pokemon in first outplayed the other and thus earned that advantage. Don't forget that nearly every pokemon in the game is done in by either explosion or status as well.

Mewtwo doesn't need to be in NU, because he's used enough in a higher tier. This means that the spot on the team mewtwo would take now goes to a pokemon that otherwise wouldn't be used in any meta. That's why he's not in NU, not because he's too good for it.

If tiers were done just on viability, then in RBY Ubers and OU would be the same thing, because Ubers is just two uber pokemon with four OUs.

[redemption]

The wrap meta hasn't always been a so-called side meta. And it shouldn't be. Also, stop knocking Jolteon, shit's legit.