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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 18, 2013 16:33:40 GMT -8
So I think Alakazam lead vs Gengar is an interesting part of the game. What should Alakazam do: Psychic or Thunder Wave?
First let's suppose Alakazam uses Psychic only and Gengar is trying to use Hypnosis. I'll consider Alakazam winning as when he either KOs Gengar, or sets up for a KO (at which point, most players switch Gengar out). This gives the following possibilities:
Psychic CHs: 23.4375% (guaranteed OHKO) Psychic non-CH, Hypnosis hits: 45.9375% Psychic non-CH, Hypnosis misses: 30.625% (either Gengar dies or switches out)
Alakazam "wins" 54.0625% of the time. Gengar hits Hypnosis 45.9375% of the time.
Now let's consider Alakazam using Psychic only, and Gengar is using Explosion. Explosion OHKOs 2/3rds of the time, and OHKOs when it CHs:
Psychic CHs: 23.4375% (guaranteed OHKO) Psychic non-CH, Explosion KOs: 56.5247% Psychic non-CH, Explosion doesn't KO: 20.0378%
Alakazam "wins" 43.4753% of the time. Gengar KOs Alakazam 56.5247% of the time.
Now for Alakazam using Thunder Wave, followed by Psychic. First is Gengar using Hypnosis:
Thunder Wave, FP/Hypnosis Misses, Psychic CHs: 12.890625% Thunder Wave, Hypnosis hits: 45% Thunder Wave, FP/Hypnosis Misses, Psychic non-CH, FP/Hypnosis Misses: 23.1601562% Thunder Wave, FP/Hypnosis Misses, Psychic non-CH, Hypnosis hits: 18.9492187%
Alakazam "wins" 36.0507812% of the time. Gengar hits Hypnosis 63.9492187% of the time.
And Alakazam using Thunder Wave, followed by Psychic, and Gengar using Explosion:
Thunder Wave, FP, Psychic CHs: 5.859375 Thunder Wave, Explosion KOs: 55.3710937% Thunder Wave, Explosion doesn't KO: 19.6289062% Thunder Wave, FP, Psychic non-CH, FP: 4.78515625% Thunder Wave, FP, Psychic non-CH, Explosion KOs: 10.5983734 Thunder Wave, FP, Psychic non-CH, Explosion doesn't KO: 3.7570953%
Alakazam "wins" 34.03053275% of the time. Gengar KOs Alakazam 65.96946725% of the time.
With all this, the next bit of information involves Gengar returning later vs Tauros, which is a common situation since Gengar speed ties him and can blow up. Of course, Gengar may be taken out beforehand, but I think most people agree that a Gengar lead vs Alakazam later following to Gengar vs Tauros is fairly common.
If Alakazam used Psychic only:
Psychic CH'd: 23.4375% Tauros wins 100% (since Gengar's dead lol)
Psychic didn't CH: 76.5625% Tauros wins by winning speed tie: 50%
So Gengar can use Explosion 38.28125% of the time, and hit Hypnosis 22.96875% of the time.
If Alakazam used Thunder Wave first:
Paralyzed + non-CH Psychic: 42.109375% Tauros wins 100%
Paralyzed + CH Psychic: 12.890625% Tauros wins 100% (since Gengar is dead)
Paralyzed only: 45% Tauros wins 41.11132812%
So Gengar can use Explosion 26.4990234% of the time, and hit Hypnosis 15.89941404% of the time.
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So to sum up, if Alakazam uses Thunder Wave first instead of only Psychic: -Alakazam gets hit by Hypnosis +18.0117188% extra -Alakazam is hit by Explosion +12.7929687% extra -Alakazam is KO'd by Explosion +9.444808897% extra -Tauros KOs Gengar before Explosion +11.7822266% extra -Tauros KOs Gengar before Hypnosis hits +7.06933596% extra -Gengar has less pressure power due to lowered Speed -Thunder Wave covers switch-ins -FPs allow other Pokemon to fight Gengar, at the cost of ~1.5 turns to KO for most Pokemon (so a net loss in general)
So what should you do? Thunder Wave gives advantages later on, whereas Psychic immediately gives advantages immediately. I'd personally suggest Thunder Wave first as it's consistent, reliable, and allows a lot of Pokemon better and safe chances at taking out Gengar, including Tauros, Golem, Rhydon, Exeggutor, and more. Psychic is the high-risk, high-reward tactic; taking out Gengar immediately before it does anything is extremely advantageous, and often results in the opponent having nothing safe for Explosion.
Of course, it's debatable.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 18, 2013 17:47:01 GMT -8
Alakazam should psychic, because they may just go to chansey to take the twave. Unless of course you're happy to paralyse chansey.
Gengar should probably just go to eggy to absorb whatever zam does. If you don't have eggy or sing chanset to back up your lead gar then your team probably isn't built very well.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 18, 2013 18:10:46 GMT -8
I know that whenever I put a Gengar lead in a team, it has Sing Chansey and/or SP Egg as backup. Chansey's for Starmie leads, Egg's for Zam leads.
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Post by lilith on Mar 18, 2013 19:35:31 GMT -8
personally: twave usually (i prefer it against both hypnosis and eggy switch), psychic just frequently enough to discourage explosion (maybe 75-25?)
i feel like chansey switch is just silly unless she plans to sing, but against sing chansey there's really no difference to me in the order that i use psychic and twave. i won't be switching out zam anytime soon if i think chansey might sing, and if she twaves i will probably sit there spamming psychic for a little bit too.
if my team doesn't care about unparalyzed gengar for whatever reason (few exploders, psychic starmie) i guess i'd psychic a bit more often... but probably still not all that often
oh also if it's one of those silly confuse ray gengars twave trolls it pretty hard!
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 18, 2013 20:35:33 GMT -8
How does Psychicing Gengar discourage it from Exploding?
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Mar 18, 2013 22:29:41 GMT -8
The CH chance is high enough not to risk starting the game 5v6, but if your opponent ALWAYS TWaves, that's not an issue anymore.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 18, 2013 22:38:56 GMT -8
Heh, just realised - Gengar's capability to take Zam with it via Explosion actually makes Psychic Starmie somewhat safer.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 18, 2013 22:40:02 GMT -8
Thunderbolt.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 18, 2013 22:49:47 GMT -8
Still needs to crit to OHKO. EDIT: That's actually something of a blessing in disguise; if people aren't expecting Psychic Starmie, they'll probably try to kill it directly instead of using Hypnosis, which ups Starmie's chances of winning from ~50% to 80%+.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 18, 2013 22:56:29 GMT -8
If Starmie is leading, Psychic should be expected. Following Thunder Wave though.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 18, 2013 22:58:48 GMT -8
Why would you Twave Gengar with Psychic Starmie?
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 18, 2013 23:05:31 GMT -8
All the same reasons as mentioned in this thread.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 18, 2013 23:09:49 GMT -8
All the same reasons as mentioned in this thread. But with the additional issue that if you use Twave and Gengar uses Tbolt, you're now in a losing matchup, because you need to crit and it doesn't.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 19, 2013 1:09:11 GMT -8
Why would you keep gengar in on starmie when you can just go to chansey?
Psychic on starmie is a waste of its potential. Zam is better for that. Honestly lead starmie sets are a waste because they can just go to chansey.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 19, 2013 2:14:05 GMT -8
Why would you keep gengar in on starmie when you can just go to chansey? Psychic on starmie is a waste of its potential. Zam is better for that. Honestly lead starmie sets are a waste because they can just go to chansey. And unless they have Sing on Chansey, they then forfeit the initiative in landing sleep. If they're switching Egg out of Starmie, they also run the small-but-significant risk of a first-turn Chansey freeze. And you're right, if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'd be facing lead Gengar, I'd use Zam over Starmie. But Egg leads exist, and Zam, unlike Starmie, doesn't pose a major threat to landing sleep with Egg, whereas Starmie threatens 2HKO with a crit Blizzard or an effective OHKO via freeze.
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 19, 2013 3:37:54 GMT -8
Wow guys you are taking this too seriously. It's really not that important. What's the difference between putting a Pokemon to sleep 2 turns earlier or two turns later? Yeah it's the same. And Gengar leading teams must have a backup sleeper to be well-built? What's the problem with switching Gengar back to Chansey against Zam/Starmie and land sleep 3 turns later? You are losing the initiative by doing this? Makes no sense lol. In any case the Zam/Starm player is the one who is losing the initiative by turning an advantageous position (zam/psychic? starm vs Gengar) into a position from which he can't do anything (zam/starm vs chansey) unless he switches back to another Pokemon. Sing Chansey is a total waste of potential unless you manage to catch Snorlax or Chansey by surprise. Putting the same Alakazam to sleep in turn 4 is the same as sleeping it in turn 6 no matter from whom it comes.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 19, 2013 4:03:40 GMT -8
Well, for one thing, not everyone uses Chansey. For a second, unless you switch Chansey right back out or use Sing, Egg comes in and threatens to sleep it, which is kinda a problem seeing as having Chansey asleep kinda defeats the point of having it in the first place.
That's what I meant by losing initiative by going to Chansey.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 19, 2013 8:49:08 GMT -8
You guys are so terrible at RBY.
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Dre
Member
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Post by Dre on Mar 19, 2013 9:51:56 GMT -8
Well, for one thing, not everyone uses Chansey. For a second, unless you switch Chansey right back out or use Sing, Egg comes in and threatens to sleep it, which is kinda a problem seeing as having Chansey asleep kinda defeats the point of having it in the first place. That's what I meant by losing initiative by going to Chansey. Crystal's right, getting the first sleep isn't important. Sleeping before you start paralysing is important unless your sleeper can KO what you've already paralysed. I agree that sing chansey is only worth it if it catches something unusual like chansey or snorlax. If eggy comes in on chansey, then you just go to your sleep absorber to take the sleep. This is why gengar isn't a good lead, because if you switch it in to take the sleep and eggy/jynx miss, you now how have to gamble for whether you want to stay in and go for the sleep and risk getting KO'd by a crit psychic. It doesn't matter who gets the first sleep, it matters what gets slept. You should have a dedicated sleep absorber on your team, and you should have a back-up sleeper if your absorber is a sleeper.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 19, 2013 10:03:16 GMT -8
Gengar is a good lead. Nothing bad about him. He's the fastest sleeper. You have at least a 60% chance to put Jynx, Eggy, or Hypno (or whoever the foe switches in) to sleep. If the foe uses an anti-lead (Starmie, Zam, Jolteon, etc) then you just switch to a special sponge and wait for your chance to get a sleeper back in to play.
As in the OP, if Zam faces Gengar in turn one, I suggest using Thunder Wave.
At least, if you don't have your own Gengar in reserve. The best thing Zam can do against Gengar in turn one is switch out to Gengar. There are a few results from this:
1. Enemy Gengar explodes on your Gengar (the best result). 2. Enemy Gengar uses Hypnosis on your Gengar and misses (making the game virtually tied, aside from the foe's knowledge of your Zam, and the presence or lack of Psychic in the two ghosts' movesets). 3. Enemy Gengar uses Hypnosis on your Gengar and hits (oh well, Gengar is a good sleep absorber). 4. The foe switches to Exeggutor or Chansey. Turn two you now have an advantageous matchup. 5. The foe switches to Alakazam (rare). You would just proceed in the OP, but with roles reversed.
So, if you have a backup Gengar, send him out. If you don't, use Thunder Wave for obvious reasons.
And what is this, 2009? There is nothing wrong with paralyzing Chansey.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Mar 19, 2013 10:04:22 GMT -8
If eggy comes in on chansey, then you just go to your sleep absorber to take the sleep. This is why gengar isn't a good lead, because if you switch it in to take the sleep and eggy/jynx miss, you now how have to gamble for whether you want to stay in and go for the sleep and risk getting KO'd by a crit psychic. What.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 19, 2013 10:05:54 GMT -8
He's kidding, I think.
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Dre
Member
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Post by Dre on Mar 19, 2013 10:12:06 GMT -8
WW- A pokemon who has to risk getting KO'd on the first turn simply to get the first sleep, which isn't that important, and isn't particularly good at waking up later isn't that good a lead to me. I'm talking about his qualities as a lead specifically, as I think he has other uses ie. cockblocking wrappers.
Isa- The context was that you switch your chansey into their starmie/zam, then they switch their eggy into your chansey and you apparently lose momentum. I'm saying in that case you just go to your sleep absorber, but gengar isn't that good at doing that because if they miss the sleep, you're back in that position where you risk getting KO'd just to get a sleep you could've got a couple of turns later much safer.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 19, 2013 10:41:37 GMT -8
Dre, every pokemon can be OHKO'd. That is irrelevant to this discussion. Obviously Gengar should switch out if he's in a bad matchup. This doesn't negate the fact that he is an advantageous lead against a number of common leads. Having to bail against Alakazam in turn one is almost completely inconsequential in the broader scope of things.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 19, 2013 10:56:27 GMT -8
Mostl pokemon don't have a chance to be OHKO'd on turn one, or by pokemon that they're supposed to stay in against.
What advantage? The common leads are eggy zam starmie gar and jynx. He's dead even in the ditto, has a bad matchup with zam and psychic starmie, and whilst he can outspeed eggy and jynx for the sleep, he risks getting OHKO'd going for it.
Getting the first sleep isn't important. If you're happy to switch out against zam and possibly lose the first sleep, then I don't understand why you would lead with gar. The point of leading with him is to get the first sleep, as he's generally less useful than the other pokemon in other facets except for cockblocking wrapperss.
Assuming no wrap, I'd rather just use a sleeper who is willing to wait a couple of turns to do their thang, and also doubles up as a good sleep absorber.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 19, 2013 11:09:06 GMT -8
You're trolling.
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Post by Dre on Mar 19, 2013 11:20:20 GMT -8
Explain to me how getting the first sleep. or sleep on turn one is much more important than turn four.
Also, explain to me how gengar makes a better sleep absorber than zam eggy or jynx.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 19, 2013 12:01:17 GMT -8
Uhhhhhhhh
Gengar is one of the best sleep absorbers in the game. While asleep, he still takes *ZERO* damage from an Explosion or Snorlax Selfdestruct, still walls Persian and Chansey (+ certain Snorlax), and still allows chain switches (*zero* damage to Articuno/Zapdos/Dodrio/Gyarados)(low damage to Exeggutor)(non-paralysis to Snorlax/Starmie/Lapras/Slowbro/etc). Further, he can wake up and outspeed foes, he can explode even from low health, and he can score late-game sleep (often a second slept pokemon) if he wakes up after the foe's sleep absorber has been killed/sac'd. I won't mention the W word, but he can help out there, too, even while asleep.
Gengar is a great sleep absorber. There is no reason to compare him to other sleep absorbers because they all function very differently, and plus it comes down to individual team needs anyway. However, to humor you...
Exeggutor is not really an amazing sleep absorber IMO, merely because he should be awake. Haha. But seriously, Eggy gets 2/3HKO'd by everyone except Gengar/Alakazam and the rocks, and when he does wake up he's probably going to be slower (which means he can just get slept again). Exeggutor is the best pokemon, but not for being a sleep absorber.
Jynx is a similar sleep absorber to Gengar, but usually inferior (can't wall as well, slower than the 318s and 298s, etc). She is useful in a few situations.
Starmie is a decent sleep absorber in the hands of master, but you won't find (m)any of those on PO these days. For most, she is just going to get slept and then kept out of play until the very end when she will die to the foe's sweeper.
Also, the sooner you get sleep in, the sooner you can begin mid-game manipulation. It's not necessary but it's easier.
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Dre
Member
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Post by Dre on Mar 19, 2013 13:09:38 GMT -8
Gengar catching explosions happens what like, once every five battles?
No offence, but trying to chain switch with gengar is low-level play. That's really obvious, ESPECIALLY when it's asleep. Good players will normally just body slam, I've caught so many people trying that on me.
Those are gimmicks. A sleeping jynx can reliably block status from most status spreaders without being KO'd back in like 2 hits, and help relieve spc drops. It also has a better chance of waking up against most status distributors, which are the most valuable pokemon to be able to sleep and wake up on because, of course, they distribute status. Using rest on jynx makes it even better. It makes you vulnerbale to physical switch ins, but they're really obvious and you can switch accordingly, but that comes down to the players.
A sleeping jynx is something you can make use of every single battle. A sleeping gengar can catch an explosion once every five battles, and even then needs to have awesome prediction because the two main exploders, eggy and golem, can hit it super effectively. At high level play you'll probably catch explosions even less than that, because good players won't explode at low health because it's too obvious. They'll probably explode at higher health, making it almost impossible to predict it.
Saying gengar is a better sleep absorber because it can catch explosions is like saying hypno is better than eggy because once every ten battles it can do the sleep-counter combo. Chain-switching through body slams shouldn't even be mentioned because that's a low-level gimmick.
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Post by lilith on Mar 19, 2013 13:17:27 GMT -8
Psychic on starmie is a waste of its potential. wut
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