Jynx, mon amour

[posthuman]

Discuss here how awesome Jynx is.

She's become more popular than Gengar as a lead (from my experience), and you can do much more with her than just sleeping/sleep baiting. She beats all the typical counter leads as well. I'd argue the only currently used lead she doesn't normally beat is Gengar, and she still has a (Icy-calc'd % here) chance to beat the ugly ghost.

Other great things about Jynx:
-STAB Blizzard/Psychic
-Second fastest sleeper
-75% accurate sleep move
-You can't safely search for pictures of her

Go.


EDIT:
I would argue that Jynx is currently the best overall lead.

[t3h Icy]

First off, I'd separate "Second fastest Sleeper with 75% success rate", since it sounds like something that also has 75% is faster.

Anyway, calculations:

Gengar's Explosion - 389-331 (117%-99%)

The only way to survive is if Gengar does the absolute minimum damage (217/255), as 218-255 over 255 will do at least 333 damage. On top, Gengar's CH Rate is 55/256 (rounded), meaning that the total chance for a fresh Jynx to survive Explosion is 2.01%.

There's two approaches you can go for vs Gengar: Psychic and Lovely Kiss. Lovely Kiss is easy.

Sleep War:

Hypnosis hits: 60%
Hypnosis misses, Lovely Kiss hits: 30%
Both miss: 10%

So Gengar has exactly a 2/3 chance of winning. Not great for Jynx.

Hypnosis vs Psychic:

Psychic vs Gengar - 188-160 (58%-<50%)

Psychic has a few chances to do less than 50%. At 217, Psychics does 160, at 218 and 219, it does 161 and at 220 it does 162. 221 and up does 163, which paired with even the lowest reaches 323. This creates 11 possibilities.

Since there are 39^2 possibilities (1521), this gives Jynx a 1510/1521 chance to 2HKO Gengar (99.3%). This is also assuming the first Psychic didn't lower Special, and neither were Critical Hits. There's about a 70% chance not to lower Special on the first turn and each CH has a 95/512 chance of occurring. The chance for two to fail is about 66.33%.

Thus in total, the chance for Gengar to survive two Psychics from Jynx is 0.09%.

So it's safe to say that it's extremely rare. The funny thing though is that a CH Psychic has a significantly less chance to KO. Since 217, 218 and 219 all do less than 50%, Gengar has a 3/39 (1/13) chance to survive a Critical Hit.

So let's round the chance for Gengar to survive two Psychics to 0% for realism. Jynx has to hit Gengar with Psychic twice, or hit with a CH Psychic and avoid the 3 lowest damages.

So there are three possibilities:

Hypnosis Miss -40%
Psychic non-CH - ~81.4%
Hypnosis Miss - 40%
Psychic Hit -100%

Giving Jynx a 13% chance for a 2HKO (and not a OHKO).

Hypnosis Miss - 40%
Psychic CH KO - ~17%

Giving Jynx about a 17% chance for a fatal CH Psychic.

Hypnosis Miss - 40%
Psychic CH non-KO - ~1.43%
Hypnosis Miss - 40%
Psychic Hit - 100%

Giving Jynx a 0.23% chance of a non-fatal Psychic and still getting the 2HKO.

In total, giving Jynx about a ~30% chance to KO Gengar with Psychic.

Now here's the catch; while Jynx's chance to KO Gengar with Psychic (~30%) and to win the Sleep War (1/3, 33.333%) are about the same, if you use one Psychic, chances are the opponent will be more inclined to explode, or switch out. So while the benefits of killing Gengar and then putting the next Pokemon to Sleep is amazing, the opponent may be ready for it. On top, the two common backup Sleepers are both Psychic (Jynx, Exeggutor) and the two common Sleep baits (if the opponent only has one Sleeper) are Alakazam and Starmie. Hell, even Hypno is Psychic. So this means that if you attack with the first Psychic and Gengar switches out, you may get retaliated on. Of course, you can counter back to with Lovely Kiss against the switch.

Or Gengar can just immediately explode and ruin everyone's fun.

To conclude, Gengar is something you want to really avoid with Jynx.

[posthuman]

Gengar exploding vs. Jynx is not a win though; it's a tie.

But still, Jynx vs. Gengar sucks.

[t3h Icy]

It was your opponent's decision though. Remember that not every Pokemon has to actually do damage if it causes your opponent to change what they were planning to do, or keep the ratio above 1 for 1 kills. In Chess, your pieces don't always make kills, but they make nice setups. Same thing here.

And yes, Jynx vs Gengar sucks.

[WaterWizard]

Surfing Starmie

[posthuman]

Okay where is the Jynx praise?

I'll add more...

-Can paralyze with Body Slam (sleep/para combo)
-High-ish CH ratio
-Hilariously racist until later made purple

[t3h Icy]

Starmie is definitely at the disadvantage against Jynx (as leads):

Hydro Pump - 159-135 (48%-41%)
Surf - 126-107 (38%-32%)
Blizzard - 53-45 (16%-14%)
Ice Beam - 42-35 (13%-11%)
Psychic - 60-51 (18%-15%)
Thunder - 106-90 (32%-27%)
Thunderbolt - 84-71 (25%-21%)
Hyper Beam - 188-159 (56%-48%)

If you intend to beat Jynx, you either need to go for a 3HKO (triple Surf), or use Hydro Pump and then Hyper Beam, hoping for high damage. One thing you could try is Hyper Beam CH, but if it hits and then Jynx hits with Lovely Kiss, you can get Sleep-Countered, or switch safely as you have to recharge during Sleep. In terms of Counter, the problem is that Starmie has less HP, so even though the damage you're doing has a minimum of 48%, Counter is almost sure to KO. On top, since you have to recharge, if you get really low, Jynx gets to use Counter twice.

So Hyper Beam is incredibly risky. The chance for getting a CH is 115/512 (~22.5%), and the chance for a CH to OHKO is 30/39 (~77%) and for Hyper Beam to even hit is 90%. Totalling this, this gives Starmie a 15.6% chance (almost exact) to OHKO with Hyper Beam.

Here's what I do (zomg Icy secret!. Using Thunderbolt, you have a 10% chance of Paralysis, a 22.5% chance of a CH and a 25% chance of attacking again. The chance of actually killing Jynx is pretty much nil, but the damage range is extremely nice.

Thunderbolt - 84-71 (25%-21%)
CH Thunderbolt - 169-143 (51%-43%)
Tauros's Body Slam - 192-164 (58%-49%)
Tauros's Hyper Beam - 338-287 (102%-86%)

With Tauros, Hyper Beam is in safe range to finish off Jynx, and in the event that Thunderbolt is Critical, Body Slam is in range to kill too (so the option of switching Jynx out is taken). Of course though if you get low CH Thunderbolt damage, Body Slam may be risky.

Snorlax's Body Slam - 205-175 (62%-53%)
Snorlax's Hyper Beam - 360-306 (108%-92%)

Again, if Thunderbolt is Critical, Snorlax can safely use Body Slam, and if not, Hyper Beam is still in range to kill.

Earthquake is outside of range for both.

Chansey's Thunderbolt - 87-74 (26%-22%)

This remains in 5HKO range, even though Starmie's is weaker.

And I can go on, there's just so many things that go into awesome range with Starmie's Thunderbolt, and combined with the nice chance of a Critical and the possible chance of Paralysis, I definitely recommend Thunderbolt in Starmie vs Jynx.

[t3h Icy]

I just realized I made a small probability error (forgot to include both 217, 218 and 218, 217, etc). I'll fix that later.

[Crystal_]

Also, you haven't used any 255/256 modifiers (move miss, low %CH and low %secondary effect) but I suppose this is too much even for you

Only thing I can say is that Jynx vs Gengar matchups are very unpredictable. In one team whose lead was Jynx I came up with the idea of switching to Golem if I face Gengar. If it uses Explosion I just =P him. If Hypnosis, it has 60% of missing. Gengar is faster though and thus can Hypnosis twice, but the only Hypnosis that really matters in my mind is the first one. People tend to forget that the chances of sleeping two Hypnosis have, decreases from 84% to 60% after an initial miss. 60% of sleeping vs 40[37-38]% of killing is not a bad coin flip at all. I would switch out if I was the Gengar player. And Golem is not a crucial poke afterall.

It is not much if I think it again though, as Eggs and Stars can appear easily and Gengar will find a new viable opportunity to show up if needed. Whatever. I could still BS out by the basis of: if Gengar sleeps everything I did was irrelevant; if it does not, it still has the 60% dilemma. But maybe a para poke is not a good thing unless I run MD on the sleeping Egg or sth. I can still RS if I expect an Egg looking for quicker results than Star. And hits Gar as well. Idk. lol

[WaterWizard]

I don't view Jynx as enough of a threat to actually use a Fire lead, but it is an option.

Moltres goes second, but can OHKO with Fire Blast.

Ninetales can almost OHKO Jynx with Fire Blast. And, I just noticed that if Ninetales does do max damage with Fire Blast, and inflicts a burn, Jynx will die after she attacks, since FB can do up to 95% and a burn does 6.25%...

Charizard, Ninetales, and Rapidash are all faster than Jynx, and they can OHKO with a critical hit using Fire Blast or Flamethrower. Or they can use Fire Spin one time and then OHKO with Fire Blast.

Still, I think Alakazam and Gengar leads handle Jynx just fine.

[t3h Icy]

I fixed the probabilities. Also Crystal, I'm excluding that level of precision since 255ers can be negligible unless you want the absolute true values. If that's the case, you also need to take 1/255th from other accuracies and effects.

Switching Golem into Gengar is a bit risky since Gengar often has Mega Drain, which is a 2HKO (or OHKO with a CH), and that really dents Golem, and also forces you to switch out. I'd recommend a better backup plan for Gengar leads when using Jynx personally.

Anyway, as far as Fire Pokemon go, I'd strongly suggest Ninetales over the others, and I'll explain thoroughly why.

Jynx Burn damage - 20 (so assume HP is 313)

As WaterWizard pointed out, the only Fire Pokemon that are faster are Ninetales, Charizard and Rapidash. If you're willing to use something slower, Moltres is your choice (for Fires).

Fire Blast vs Jynx - 371-316 (111%-95%)

For this to OHKO, you need to reach at least 229 in the random variable, which gives a 12/39 chance of survival (slightly under 1/3). That alone is enough to turn away since Fire Blast is only 85% accurate to begin with and Moltres attacks second. However, Moltres's CH rate is a pretty decent 17.5%, and a Burn is guaranteed to finish off Jynx.

Rapidash is the fastest of the Fire types, but has the lowest Special. The CH rate is a lovely 20.5% though.

Rapidash's Fire Blast - 276-235 (83%-71%)

Since Fire Blast can't OHKO, even with a Burn, we'll use Flamethrower instead. Oh wait...

Charizard's Fire Blast vs Jynx - 287-244 (86%-73%)

Charizard is also outside of range, so let's use Flamethrower instead.

Flamethrower vs Jynx - 228-194 (68%-58%)

So there are two ways to beat Jynx using Charizard: either get a CH, or have Lovely Kiss miss.

Non-CH Flamethrower - 80.5%
Lovely Kiss miss - 25%
Flamethrower - 100%

Total - 20.1%

CH Flamethrower - 19.5%

Grand Total - 39.6%

40% isn't exactly reliable, but the main problems are Jynx's Blizzard can do over 90% damage, and while the first Flamethrower hits hard, Jynx can be switched out and Charizard doesn't have great match-ups elsewhere. Starmie, Chansey and the Rocks can beat Charizard. However, if you predict this and setup with Swords Dance, you could put yourself into a good position. I wouldn't recommend it.

But I should point out, GGFan has used a Jynx lead for years and Nerd did defeat him 3-2 with Charizard on his team, so it might be something to look into more in-depth.

As I said though, I recommend Ninetales:

Fire Blast vs Jynx - 318-271 (95%-81%)
Flamethrower vs Jynx - 253-215 (76%-65%)

Jynx's Blizzard - 149-126 (43%-36%)

Again, it would be best to use Flamethrower. But the main thing is Confuse Ray. With Confuse Ray, even if Jynx switches, you get some benefit, and it works really well to avoid Sleep. Ninetales' CH rate is 19.5%.

Non-CH Flamethrower - 80.5%
Lovely Kiss miss - 25%
Flamethrower - 100%

Total - 20.1%

CH Flamethrower - 19.5%

Grand Total - 39.6%

Just like Charizard. Now use Confuse Ray first. Confusion lasts for 2-5 turns (though you can only hurt yourself on 1-4 turns).

Confuse Ray -100%
Lovely Kiss miss/self-confusion - 62.5%

Possibility 1:
CH Flamethrower - 19.5%
Total - 12.2%
Possibility 2:
Flamethrower - 100%
Confusion remains - 75%
Lovely Kiss miss/self-confusion - 62.5%
Flamethrower - 100%
Total - 29.3%
Possibility 3:
Flamethrower - 100%
Confusion ends - 25%
Lovely Kiss miss - 25%
Flamethrower - 100%
Total - 3.91%

Grand Total - 45.41%

So while this is actually a losing match-up, you cover switches and don't have to use Gengar if you want to save him for later. Fire Blast could also be used if you want to try to combo a Burn with Confusion, for a chance of a combined OHKO.

Overall still, Gengar is Jynx's worst match-up, but if you have any intentions of using a Fire Pokemon, use Ninetales.

[WaterWizard]

yeah, Ninetales, Moltres, and Charizard are the only fires I'd consider, before and after reading these numbers.

so what is the % chance of Ninetales OHKOing with FB via max rolls + burn (or utilizing a CH), eh?

[t3h Icy]

Well Fire Blast in itself isn't a OHKO, so you need a CH or a Burn combined with above average damage. All that and accuracy, so I can assure you it's less than Flamethrower.

However, Fire Blast is recommended for Exeggutor:

Fire Blast vs Exeggutor - 264-225 (67%-57%)
Flamethrower vs Exeggutor - 211-179 (54%-46%)

[WaterWizard]

85% accuracy + 50% high rolls + 30% burn is what I meant

and

85% accuracy + ~20% CH

~

also, you can just lead Dodrio and HB that bitch.

[t3h Icy]

And get Blizzed on.

Okay fine, I'll calculate it.

Ninetales' Fire Blast vs Jynx - 318-271 (95%-81%)

Since Burn damage does 20 per turn to Jynx, you need to do at least 313 damage. You need 251-255 on the random variable to do high enough damage, which is a 5/39 chance. Eww. The chance for Fire Blast to hit, Burn and do enough damage is (0.85)(0.3)(0.128), which totals to 3.26%. The CH chance combined with hitting is a decent 16.6% chance, bringing Fire Blast's OHKO chance to just under 20%. Or you know, you could just CH with Flamethrower. The chances of missing outweigh the chance of Burn comboing.

Confusion damage also isn't enough as its range is 39-33, so it's uncommon for it to combo into a 2HKO unless you get really high rolls on both. The plus side is that it can occur more than once, be combined with Burns (if Fire Blast doesn't finish off), and Jynx can die even if Lovely Kiss hits. Flamethrower is better though.

Next, Dodrio's Hyper Beam: 360-306 (108%-92%)

You need to get at least 236 with the random variable, which gives you a 20/39 chance to OHKO, which is a wee bit over 50%. You also have to hit with Hyper Beam, which drops the total to 45%. Factoring in CHs brings this to about 55.5%, which is just a wee worse than using Gengar's Hypnosis, but killing Jynx instead of putting her to Sleep is probably considered better (I'm assuming since a player leads with Dodrio, they have plans for Sleeping afterward).

However, Hyper Beam is a very exploitable attack, as the opponent could go to Golem (which some people like to have as backup due to Gengar as Crystal mentioned), and many other Pokemon can abuse that. On top, if Hyper Beam hits, but doesn't KO, Jynx can do Sleep-Countering. Jynx's Blizzard is also a guaranteed OHKO (90% due to accuracy). Drill Peck is an option though, or you could bait Golem/Gengar and switch to Starmie, but that can be a bit risky.

Dodrio is definitely one of the better options though.

[posthuman]

Uh oh is the Tauros lead going to make comeback

[Zilch]

*shudder* It had better not...

[Crystal_]

I can imagine a Gengar using MD aginst Jynx first turn but whatever.

[WaterWizard]

haha, yeah Crystal is right. Gengar wouldn't use MD against Jynx, so Golem IS save to switch in.

Tauros lead vs Jynx would be a bad idea...

[t3h Icy]

I've done it quite a few times when I used Gengar lead. Golem is also a nice switch from Jynx if you fear Explosion.

[posthuman]

I prefer not to have a mostly useless team member to counter a Jynx.

Whenever I go up against a Jynx lead with my own, I usually just go through with the sleep war or use Zam as sleep bait. Then I just switch back to Jynx to sleep something.

I use a Gengar lead sometimes too, but as long Jynx is NOT the most popular lead, I'll keep using her.

[WaterWizard]

Alakazam is great. Just paralyze Jynx, then you have like a 45% chance that she fails at sleeping you on the first turn. So next turn use Reflect or proceed to pummel her with CHs and special falls from which she cannot recover.

Also, since Alakazam has a 45% chance of getting Reflect up, he can stay in against Jynx will he's sleeping.

I think using lead Jynx is somewhat shortsighted. You're just filling a spot on your team with a weak pokemon all for the purposing of achieving sleep early on in the game.

[Crystal_]

Why would you waste a turn using reflect instead of attacking? Why giving her an additional turn?
Be realistic. The sleeping Alakazam success in this scenario is determined by the turns he needs to wake up; Tauros can easily get a CH, and if not his moves will still cause considerable damage. And if he wakes up, your opponent just needs to switch back to Jynx, or for a safer route go with one of the many things that can take a hit from Zam. Oh, and Jynx can still Blizzard or ST.

It seems to me rather redundant to risk Zam (or anything tbh) this way for just do nothing as you become again vulnerable to sleep, but para Jynx if you insist, but this only implies the first turn, and BTW a paraa Jynx is not confortable poke to face if your sleeper is Gengar or Egg.

After all, Jynx is also there to absorb the sleep absorber, and it is really good at it as well. And actually, Gengar is completely stopped by most things, and only threat it posses is Explosion, which does not guarantee a 1-1 trade at all. Jynx can be deadly if all answer you have left is a para Zam and/or Star. Well, anyway what I really want to say is that while Jynx is mediocre, Gengar is too, and people have no qualms in using it very often. Supposing it is because of predicting and taking the booms, where I have always been very bad so I should probably eat my words. Idk.

[posthuman]

I agree with Crystal in part; once Jynx is paralyzed, she can easily be switched to in order to absorb sleep attacks later on. She really does do this well as Gengar and Eggy are both weak to Jynx's attacks.

I try not to paralyze anything until I've put someone to sleep.

[WaterWizard]

lol

[Consumptus]

I just won 2 battles against Icy with Jynx.
One with a Jynx sweep at the end.

Jynx is amazing.

[t3h Icy]

Even when leading with Gengar, the pressure of blowing up on something you don't want to (namely a Golem or another Gengar) is a bit sketchy, and the chance to win the Sleep war as Jynx is still 1/3 which is pretty good for a worst case scenario, and even losing that bout isn't game over.

I would agree Jynx is the best lead, but I don't like being in the position against Gengar.

[brookman]

Nov 24, 2010 0:42:57 GMT -8 posthuman said:

-Hilariously racist until later made purple

this line was too much for me.

[WaterWizard]

Jynx is not the best lead... Gengar and Alakazam are better, hands down.

[Sarcasm]

Waterwizard, that's a terrible post. It's all about the discussion. Why do you believe that Zam and Gengar are the best leads? Why is Jynx so inferior? We need answers man!