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Post by t3h Icy on Apr 30, 2011 18:24:24 GMT -8
Well, anytime that both players have Ditto, they can switch to them and both refuse to switch. You end up in an endless stalemate.
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Post by WaterWizard on Apr 30, 2011 19:04:50 GMT -8
Garrin, I used to think that, because I thought the only time it mattered would be at the end of a match when it coincidentally happened to be Ditto vs Ditto. However, as Icy points out, at any point during the match, if both players switch Ditto in, it becomes an infinite stall.
The harmless solution is to give them Toxic (this is the only remaining poisoning move).
Since Ditto is actually a viable choice for a team (like everyone in Plus), we actually do need to address the potential situation. I believe this is the answer.
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Post by garrinred on May 1, 2011 8:38:34 GMT -8
Well if the two players WANTED to endlessly stall, couldn't they just keep on transforming into each other endlessly and just ignore Toxic or whatever other move you gave ditto?
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Post by t3h Icy on May 1, 2011 8:44:33 GMT -8
I'd rather poison an opposing Ditto than just stall it...
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Post by garrinred on May 1, 2011 9:05:46 GMT -8
You'd probably also rather switch out to another pokemon.
The thing is, I don't want to see a ditto in a regular battle(where I don't have one) and think "What can I switch to that won't mind Toxic?"
Ditto vs. a Wall/Staller(like Onix) as last two of the battle. Ditto uses Toxic first, then Transforms into the other pokemon. Not cool.
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on May 1, 2011 9:36:47 GMT -8
General very unorganized rant on flinching moves and balancing:
Headbutt needs a remake. Having just 70 base power, Psychic typing when the only Psychic Pokémons learning it is Slowbro (who'd have to ditch Reflect or Surf for it in a meta where people will try to counter Psychics) and Hypno (who MIGHT use it), and the fastest user being Dewgong with 268 base speed, it needs a power boost of some sort, or its users to be faster/more users.
Current list of users: Slowbro, Dewgong, Hypno, Snorlax, Marowak. The only one I can see using this would be Hypno. Slowbro needs his other moves and has very low speed, Dewgong might use it only because of her very limited movepool (Seriously, look at it, not even Surf in there), but even then it is a 70-base unstabbed move coming from 318 Special. Hypno could make use of it if he gets his opponent paralyzed, I'll admit that. Snorlax won't use it in Amnesia variants, Ice Beam is much more potent. Finally, Marowak has such a pitiful Special stat that he won't ever use it. He's also way too slow for it.
Regarding flinching moves in general, most of them are really underpowered. Here's the current list of flinching moves: Bite - Normal, 60, 100%, 15PP Low Kick - Fighting, 60, 100%, 15PP Headbutt - Psychic, 70, 100%, 15PP Rolling Kick - Rock, 75, 100%, 5PP Hyper Fang - Ghost, 80, 95%, 15PP Stomp - Ground, 80, 100%, 15PP Supersonic - Normal, 100, 100%, 10PP Supersonic, Hyper Fang and Stomp are the only ones I'd normally use (Rolling Kick might be an option due to the bad movepool of Hitmonlee), the rest of these moves are so weak that you NEED the flinch to be useful. Problem is that most Pokemon that learn these moves are also slow, and the ones who are fast usually get better moves in general or flat out a better flinch move (Why'd you use Bite over Hyper Fang with Arbok?).
Flinching moves are a cool concept, but they're currently so weak that nobody bothers with them. I'd use Supersonic on Golbat, Stomp possibly on Tauros or Rapidash (also, come on guys, that's his only STAB Ground move), and Hyper Fang on Arbok, probably on Raticate as well. These are quite well thought out and balanced, and they are placed on fast pokemon and Arbok (who learns Glare). Rolling Kick is put on Hitmonlee solely because he learns no other moves that aren't Fighting/Normal. Mega Kick/Meditate/Jump Kick (STAB 150 base, no recharge? Yes please) is a good base to build from, but then you could choose between either another Fighting move or Rolling Kick. That's all you got - Rolling Kick goes on there because he must learn something else. Even then, if faced against a Ghost Pokemon, most people would probably switch, and I can't blame them. Rolling Kick doesn't do it's job - when it is the strongest option, you're already losing. I've already gone through Headbutt, not doing it again...Low Kick has a decent user in Primeape, plus Machamp (with horrible speed) and Hitmonlee, who now has two flinching moves in his limited movepool. I wouldn't put Low Kick and Rolling Kick on the same moveset on Hitmonlee, so either, you cross out the only Rolling Kick user, or you practically make Low Kick Primeape-exclusive. Even then, it's just 60 base power. You get STAB, but it's still lower than all other used moves in regular RBY (minus Mega Drain), and it's the lowest base power of all moves in RBY+, not counting multi-hit or often CH-moves. Bite is learned by a multitude of Pokemon, but the only ones who gets STAB from it are Raticate and Persian. Persian will mostly be Slashing away as usual, and Raticate will probably go with Hyper Fang to get type coverage (Super Fang/Hyper Fang/Body Slam/Hyper Beam or Fury Swipes). Being a glass cannon, Raticate needs the quick damage output that Super Fang gives, Hyper Fang is good for Ghosts (she outspeeds all Ghosts), Body Slam is still a brilliant move with a generally better effect than flinching + higher base power, and Hyper Beam is a good finisher. Fury Swipes are for other Normals, where Hyper Fang can't be used. Simply put, there's not enough room for Bite, and it's also competing with Hyper Fang, which has 20 higher base power, albeit it doesn't get STAB, it's still recommended due to the different typing and the damage difference is low. To be frank, non-stabbed Bite shouldn't even be considered due to the low damage (although Aerodactyl could do fine with a flinching move).
So yeah, there you are - why most flinching moves are bad as of now. My proposed solution: Boost ALL flinching moves to have a base power of 80 or 85, preferably also 100% (looking at you, Hyper Fang). Make sure that the ones intended for learning these moves have high speed or a neat way to paralyse his opponent (Glare/Hyper Fang on Arbok is a good example). I don't think this would be overpowered, because Body Slam, having a base power of 85, is in my opinion still a better move in general than Bite will ever be, due to the power of paralysis. I also propose speed boosts to Hypno if you want him to use Headbutt (the move with least potential as of now, IMO).
On a related note, please, balance out moves. Why should Slash have 15 higher base power than Cut and company? Why does Bonemerang have lower accuracy than Double-Slap? (minor) Why should Bone Club be so HORRIBLY underpowered in comparison to all other priority moves? Why does Thunder have 70% accuracy while Guillotine has 85%? Why does 3 spec. drop-moves have higher base power than 3 other? (minor) Why does Night Shade have 30 higher base power than Fire Blast? Why does Constrict have 15% lower accuracy than Stun Spore?
Edit: Lol, this became way longer than I expected. Sorry for the harsh tone, as well.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 1, 2011 9:37:55 GMT -8
If you're able to save Ditto as the last Pokemon though, that means you played the rest of the match 5v6. In general though, poison kind of sucks; I'd rather go for Paralysis.
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Post by garrinred on May 1, 2011 10:37:10 GMT -8
The point is giving Ditto the option to use Toxic really changes him and his function. I'd rather see him have a really weak attacking move that would be worthless outside of Ditto vs. Ditto duels. Maybe make it fighting type. :-P
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Post by t3h Icy on May 1, 2011 11:33:55 GMT -8
That's why I suggested Double-Edge (his Attack is abysmal to the point where he can't viably use it on other things), plus you get recoil.
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Post by garrinred on May 1, 2011 11:44:30 GMT -8
Much better that than Toxic.
Or better yet: Sumbission. Same thing as Double Edge, minus the STAB, and it's 2x effective on other Dittos. Even less useful on non-Ditto opponents, even more useful in a Ditto duel.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 1, 2011 12:53:33 GMT -8
Nah. Having a damaging move is much more of a change than having Toxic.
It's also absurd for Ditto to have/use Submssion, etc.
Please tell me how Toxic changes Ditto drastically? When would you ever use Toxic outside of a Ditto Ditto? Perhaps against Tangela, but that's it. Without a proper moveset to complement Toxic, it will not be game-changing at all.
Toxic makes sense and it's benign outside of its tie-breaker function.
Giving Ditto an attack is outrageous.
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Post by garrinred on May 1, 2011 13:14:11 GMT -8
Alright, alright, you've convinced me. Submission/Double-Edge are way too strong. Toxic is better.
Still, I can't shrug off the feeling that a really(really) weak, high-PP, fighting-type attack(perhaps Tackle) could also be used to painfully settle the infinite stall. Something that would take 10 or more hits to KO ditto.
I guess I'm cool with Toxic though.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 1, 2011 16:06:13 GMT -8
Updated Flinch Moves:
Bite - Normal, 80, 100%, 15PP Hyper Fang - Ghost, 80, 100%, 15PP Low Kick - Fighting, 80, 100%, 15PP Rolling Kick - Rock, 80, 100%, 5PP Stomp - Ground, 80, 100%, 15PP Headbutt - Psychic, 100, 100%, 15PP Supersonic - Normal, 100, 100%, 10PP
~
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Post by t3h Icy on May 1, 2011 16:49:02 GMT -8
I propose Fissure to Rapidash. With Agility and Horn Drill to accompany, it allows Rapidash to be a really good OHKO Pokemon if you wish.
Thoughts?
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Post by Consumptus on May 1, 2011 19:56:22 GMT -8
One thing to note is that Persian no longer has Bubblebeam since we changed it. I propose giving Persian Surf.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 1, 2011 20:29:34 GMT -8
Recent Updates:
Stun Spore to 90% accuracy. Constrict to 90% accuracy. Doubleslap to 90% accuracy. Thunder to 75% accuracy.
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on May 2, 2011 13:40:07 GMT -8
Something I just realized - there are almost no Physical leads. It'd be cool to have some for a change. (not counting Gengar, he's Physical in typing only, stats say otherwise)
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Post by garrinred on May 2, 2011 13:59:32 GMT -8
I approve of more physical leads. Zam needs more leads that he can easily power through. :-P
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Post by t3h Icy on May 2, 2011 15:58:11 GMT -8
There are a lot of fast and powerful Physicals. What do you guys have in mind? Sleepers? Fast versatile Physicals?
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Isa
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Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on May 2, 2011 16:02:28 GMT -8
A sleeper, preferably, but someone filling the same role as Zam might also do it.
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Post by Consumptus on May 2, 2011 19:24:11 GMT -8
There /are/ some versatile physicals. But giving a pokemon Tauros-like sweeping stats and movepool, along with utility would be silly.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 2, 2011 19:31:50 GMT -8
You know how to use actual italics, right? =P
Anyway, there are a lot of Physicals you could lead with such as Raticate, Aerodactyl, Persian, Primeape, Dugtrio, etc. True there are no superb Physical Sleepers, but Physical Pokemon have much better offensive types (mostly since low Defense is easier to exploit).
There are a few Physical Sleepers if you wish though such as Poliwrath, Parasect, Gengar, Venomoth, but nothing like Tauros or Snorlax.
We could mod a Pokemon or two for this though, but they'd need other severe balance changes.
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Post by Consumptus on May 2, 2011 21:09:57 GMT -8
Yes =d
We really have to play more games in this meta to really flush it out, but I don't think we need to mod a pokemon for this role.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 2, 2011 22:03:21 GMT -8
What role? There are tons of physical sweepers...
We've boosted fighting, rock, bug, ground, and ghost...
lol!
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Isa
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Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on May 2, 2011 23:57:42 GMT -8
Sleeper, not sweeper
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Post by WaterWizard on May 3, 2011 0:27:52 GMT -8
Venomoth and Poliwrath are both physical sweepers/sleepers. Sleep is a nasty effect anyway. ~ Updates: Drill Peck to 10PP (matches Earthquake and Tail Whip now) Poisonpowder to NO effect (from Paralysis/TBA) ~ 20PP for stat-ups and 15PP for stat-screens. Those are already drastically lower than RBY, and any lower seriously limits stalling ability. ~ Finished the Moves ThreadWW
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Post by Destiny Warrior on May 3, 2011 1:00:17 GMT -8
When I saw you posted, I was afraid you were changing the BP of some move I had completed and was about to go SCREWWWWWWWW Then I found it was PP and effect related Good to know moves thread is finished. I'd also like to mention that for the indeterminate moves, I will implement them as 79 BP so that if a decision is made regarding their BP, it is easy to Ctrl+F to find it. So that this doesn't detract from the conversation, I have a question. Why not give earthquake extra BP, so that It doesn't get nearly totally outclassed by Dig?
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Post by WaterWizard on May 3, 2011 1:06:34 GMT -8
Dig is only learned by Dugtrio.
And that's smart @ the 79BP
~
All Self-KO moves are down to 1PP, except Self-Destruct (5PP), which is unstabbed by all but Snorlax.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 3, 2011 12:01:31 GMT -8
Changed the look of move listings. It should be a lot more user friendly, and quicker to check things.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 3, 2011 12:15:49 GMT -8
I just realized a small problem. Normally, Self-Destruct and Explosion's true bases are 130 and 170, but due to halving the opponent's Defense, it's common people just call them 260 and 340. However, we have Specialized Self-KO moves, so we need to adjust some.
So for the true bases:
Barrage: 200 Explosion: 100 Self-Destruct: 125 Smog: 100 Sonicboom: 200
And due to halving Defenses, Explosion and Smog go back up to 200 while Self-Destruct goes to 125. Barrage and Sonicboom being Special stay at 200.
Just a small fix.
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