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Post by WaterWizard on Jun 6, 2011 23:58:55 GMT -8
that's un-pokemon. every gen has tons of crucial speed ties.
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Post by KiNGskruffi on Jun 7, 2011 0:29:22 GMT -8
If you remove any luck from the game, it's not RBY anymore. Plus, luck is fun! :b Gives noobs like me a chance.
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Post by t3h Icy on Jun 7, 2011 9:25:27 GMT -8
There is a large increase of useable moves that are 100% accurate, so it's very possible to build a team that's not luck-based if you wish.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Aug 10, 2011 11:41:14 GMT -8
Suggestion, make Scratch Ground-type or make it possible to use on other Normal-types than Persian, who'll run Slash/HBeam/Pay Day/Bubble either way. Right now the only pokes I can see using it would be Sandslash and Dugtrio (Primeape? Eh, maybe but he doesn't need the burn) and I think we can agree that it's not so powerful of a move that it warrants it to be a non-STAB move on everyone that'll use it. Add it to someone with a more defensive playstyle, those pokes are the ones most likely to use it.
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Post by garrinred on Aug 11, 2011 13:28:31 GMT -8
Nerd has a point about the usefulness of super-powerful lower-accuracy moves. However......there's a part of me that just loves high base power 85% accuracy moves. Except when playing agaisnt Isa.
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Post by t3h Icy on Aug 24, 2011 17:47:00 GMT -8
Alright, WaterWizard and I went through everything and made another round of changes. Nothing too crazy; just a few edits here and there, but we made Primeape partially Electric, and we nerfed Mewtwo. Did we go too far with Mewtwo? Absorb - 16PP Bind - 70% Accuracy Bone Club - 8PP Clamp - 15 Base, 70% Accuracy Comet Punch - 8PP Disable - 24PP Dream Eater - 16PP Drill Peck - 90 Base Fire Spin - 70% Accuracy, 16PP Flamethrower - 24PP Flash - 32PP Fury Attack - 16PP Fury Swipes - 16PP Gust - 16PP Harden - 32PP Hi Jump Kick - 16PP Leech Life - 16PP Mega Drain - 16PP Mega Kick - 16PP Mega Punch - 16PP Mist - 85 Base, 8PP Peck - 85 Base Pin Missile - 16PP Poison Sting - 35 Base, 16PP Psybeam - 120 Base, 75% Accuracy, Charge-up Quick Attack - 8PP Screech - 24PP Sharpen - 32PP Slash - 16PP Sleep Powder - 16PP Smokescreen - 150 Base Solarbeam - 8PP Spike Cannon - 95% Accuracy, 16PP Spore - 16PP Supersonic - 24PP Teleport - 16PP Tri Attack - 16PP Withdraw - 32PP Wrap - 70% Accuracy
Blastoise - Added Haze, Removed Ice Beam, Blizzard, Rock Throw, Rock Slide Pidgeot - 338 Attack, Added Quick Attack Raticate - 258 Attack Arbok - Added Haze Sandslash - Added Take Down Nidoqueen - Added Flamethrower, Take Down Nidoking - Added Flamethrower, Take Down Wigglytuff - Added Flamethrower Dugtrio - Added Haze, Take Down Primeape - Type Electric/Fighting Rapidash - Removed Reflect Slowbro - Added Flamethrower Dodrio - Added Haze, Low Kick Muk - Added Flamethrower Cloyster - 403 HP, 208 Attack, 258 Special Kingler - Removed Blizzard, Ice Beam, Surf Marowak - Added Flamethrower, Take Down Hitmonlee - 288 Speed Lickitung - 198 Attack, 198 Special, Added Flamethrower Rhydon - Added Flamethrower, Take Down Chansey - Added Flamethrower Kangashan - Added Double Team, Flamethrower Seadra - 328 Special, Added Haze Seaking - 268 Special, Added Haze, Peck Mr.Mime - Added Doubleslap Magmar - Added Reflect Tauros - Added Flamethrower Gyarados - Added Flamethrower Ditto - Added Poison Gas Porygon - Added Metronome, Removed Psybeam Aerodactyl - 323 HP, Added Flamethrower, Removed Reflect Snorlax - Added Flamethrower Dragonite - 248 Speed, Added Flamethrower, Removed Body Slam Mewtwo - Added Psybeam, Removed Barrier, Ice Beam, Reflect, Psychic, Self-destruct, Thunderbolt Feedback is welcome!
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Aug 25, 2011 4:07:48 GMT -8
You know I'll disagree with ever making Wrap moves better...so eh.
I'll state it right now - my problem with Mewtwo wasn't his awesome movepool, it was his high stats. He's really overnerfed now, having only one "weak" STAB attack that has a high chance to miss and even when it hits, gives you a severe drawback. I'd use Metronome on him right now. My proposed Mewtwo changes: Revert his movepool (except possibly Self-destruct), lower his Special to 388, HP to 363 and his speed to 308. Should he keep SD, lower his attack to 278. Suddenly, not as broken and I'd be content.
Do you really think Flying moves will be so overpowered that Drill Peck needs to be lowered to 90 base? I'm not really a fan of this considering the relatively small movepool of Flying moves that aren't chargeable (Wing Attack, Drill Peck and Whirlwind), and none of the Pokemon that learn Drill Peck learn WA or WW. Especially Moltres dislikes this as it tilts him even more towards his Fire side of the spectrum, having 50 higher special than attack and only Fighting pokemon to hit with Drill Peck (you'll probably hit bugs/grasses with Fire Blast unless they're REALLY loaded on special and weak on defense). My opinion? Reverse the change.
Primeape type change doesn't really do much for him considering his weak special, except making Flying pokes avoid switching in on him. Countered especially hard by Marowak now, and suddenly Ground types enjoy fighting him. Psychics and Nidos love him now too...IDK, extra STAB is cool of course, but I'd rather see him being Normal/Fighting.
IDK what Cloyster's old special was but he now gets hit harder by a Water/Grass attack than from a Fighting one.
That's that I assume.
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Post by t3h Icy on Aug 25, 2011 7:41:13 GMT -8
Haha. Wrap moves won't change again, as 70% accuracy is pretty unreliable and hitting twice in a row is less than a 50% chance, while 65% Accuracy was nearing 40%.
The thing with Mewtwo is we wanted to keep his total stats the same for aesthetic purposes (being the highest overall), but yeah, we were pretty sure we went a bit overkill. We're thinking of just modifying Psybeam to be a super attack, because at 408 Special, 328 Speed and a 22% CH rate, Mewtwo can really go to town on Pokemon. At 150 base, Mewtwo only has a 4/1521 of not 2HKOing the legendary birds, who have superb Special defensiveness. Don't forget that Mewtwo is also difficult to KO quickly and has high Attack too.
So how about if Psybeam were 150/100%/Charge-up? Mewtwo can work as a super destructive Psychic, but only attacks once per two turns with it, and does the charging beforehand.
Good points about Drill Peck. Comparing it type-wise with Ground, I think reversing it to 100 base would be fine.
Primeape's typing was mostly to make him stick out, but our ideas were that being Electric, Primeape is a Fighting Pokemon that can take Flying attacks, and attack back somewhat. If you think he's a poor Pokemon now, I'd say keep the type, but maybe boost up his Special slightly, to 258 or so. Then again, Normal/Fighting could be neat.
Cloyster's Special was 238 and his HP was 383. We made the boosts by dropping his Attack.
Thanks!
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Aug 25, 2011 9:31:47 GMT -8
The problem with chargeups is that your opponent gets to choose who'll take it. I suppose it could work if you save Mewtwo for later (like he's the final boss, hah), so if you really wanna keep the stats, then I suppose it could work.
I'd still run Metronome on him though...Psybeam/Metronome/Body Slam/SToss or something. First time you bring him in, predict their switch and lulz with Metronome, and hope for the best. Attack and Special are high enough for it to work, and he's the best user of it overall with the highest special and 5th highest attack of the carriers. (A comparison: He has the same attack as Tauros.)
Yeah I noticed, but that only affects Cloysters Explosion. Explosion/Ice Beam/Withdraw/Hyper Beam or even Rest seems good to me. Get threats out of the way (Fightings) and then slowly beef up. Should shit hit the fan, BOOM. Seems a but strong now...time will tell.
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Post by t3h Icy on Aug 25, 2011 9:39:18 GMT -8
We figure having 5 weaknesses will balance that out. He's more high-risk, high-reward, and if he can't wall anything, he'll be doing very little of anything.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Aug 25, 2011 10:03:56 GMT -8
Actually, two of those weakness are physical *2. so imagine he has 403 HP and 276 defense and you are onto something. Compare to regular RBY where Kangaskhan, with 413 HP and 258 defense takes 31-26% damage from a Tauros Body Slam. Even if most Ground/Rock attacks are stronger than that, I think it'll still take three hits minimum to take him down. Plenty of time to fire some IBeams.
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Post by WaterWizard on Aug 25, 2011 11:35:43 GMT -8
And 403 HP and 1116 defense vs Normal, Poison, Flying... 403 HP and 558 defense vs Ghost and Bug...
That still walls a slew of pokemon. Also walls mono-ice users (Dewgong, Articuno), and should outspace many Ground users due to the super effective STAB Ice attacks.
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The Primeape change allows him to be neutral to Flying, and resist Electric, at the cost of being weak to Ground. It's definitely a major boost for Primeape. Ground attacks are actually some of the less-spread out attacks in the game (Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Flying). None of the pokemon you use Primeape to kill will pack a ground attack (Machamp's EQ does 93% max, thus no un-stabbed EQ will 1HKO Primeape), and now Primeape can actually get the birds. Honestly, most mono-typed pokemon would jump at the chance to get a secondary Electric typing. Also, I don't think you meant to say Psychics love him now since his interaction with them hasn't changed... Personally, I think the typing is awesome (Icy's idea) and definitely not a detriment, for all the above reasons.
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As for Drill Peck, we've already seen in the Pen&Paper matches how potent it is at 100 base... Ground attacks are resisted by Grass and Bug, and don't even effect Flying, whereas Flying attacks are only resisted by Electric and Rock. I don't really care either way (80, 90, 100), as long as it's balanced in the meta. There are five Drill Peck users. It really won't affect Fearow much, but do you think the Legendary birds and Dodrio need that much power? Remember, they can already use Fly... Anyway, those are my thoughts on that.
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Glad to have your feedback. Hopefully others will follow suit.
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Post by WaterWizard on Aug 25, 2011 12:09:28 GMT -8
I'm warming up to the Fighting idea... Isa and I have been talking about it on NBS. Takes the pressure off of us giving Primeape Thunderpunch, which I do NOT want to do... And gives STAB to Scratch... Keeps him physical...
Primeape: Fighting/Normal 303 308 218 288 218, remove Rock Slide (keep Rock Throw for now)
Isa agrees! Others have thoughts?
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Post by WaterWizard on Aug 25, 2011 12:25:29 GMT -8
also, I'm in favor of him still losing all the recent moves, but making Psybeam 100% accurate, charge up, psychic type, with the base somewhere between 100 and 150 (Isa mentioned 140). we need to calc stuff and not just pick out of a hat. give us a list of calcs for various bases, and we'll select!
headed to work now. back in 7 hours.
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Post by garrinred on Aug 25, 2011 12:48:13 GMT -8
Mewtwo without Psychic? What is this sillyness?
At least you didn't mess with my Alakazam.
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Post by t3h Icy on Aug 28, 2011 12:37:54 GMT -8
Mewtwo's CH Chance at 328 Speed is 22.46%
Psybeam is 100% Accurate, 5 (8) PP, Charge-up and Psychic type.
Base 127 or lower cannot 2HKO the legendary birds. Base 130 is 57/1521 Base 135 is 394/1521 Base 140 is 952/1521 Base 145 is 1385/1521 Base 150 is 1517/1521
Base 86 or higher OHKOs Machamp guaranteed. Base 73 or higher 2HKOs Tentacruel guaranteed. Base 125 has a 1/39 chance to OHKO Tentacruel. Base 147 or higher OHKOs Tentacruel guaranteed. Base 152 or higher 2HKOs Onix guaranteed. Bases 100-150 all 2HKO Rhydon guaranteed. Base 153 has a 10/59319 chance to 3HKO Chansey. Base 128 has a 7/59319 chance to 3HKO Ditto. Base 129 has a 160/59319 chance to 3HKO Electabuzz/Jynx/Magmar. Base 149 or higher is guaranteed to 3HKO Electabuzz/Jynx/Magmar. Base 149 has a 5/1521 chance to 2HKO Mew. Base 117 or higher is guaranteed to 3HKO Mew.
130-140 are good. I'd say 130.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Aug 28, 2011 13:35:24 GMT -8
Oh yeah, uh, forgot about this.
I'm fine with base 130.
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Post by WaterWizard on Aug 28, 2011 19:52:38 GMT -8
I like 130. 100% accurate.
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Post by t3h Icy on Aug 28, 2011 20:06:52 GMT -8
Alright, so for some extra changes:
-Psybeam's Base to 130 and Accuracy to 100% -Drill Peck back to Base 100 -Change Primeape's type to Normal/Fighting -Remove Rock Slide from Primeape
Good to go? And if anyone else has suggestions or feel there's any major balance problem, feel free to discuss it here!
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Post by Consumptus on Aug 28, 2011 20:51:25 GMT -8
Who cares about the base power. It's a Charge-up skill. Charge-up skills are effectively worthless.
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Post by t3h Icy on Aug 28, 2011 21:08:00 GMT -8
If Aerodactyl can do it in RBY, a ton of Pokemon can do it in Plus. =)
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Post by WaterWizard on Aug 28, 2011 22:31:09 GMT -8
Okay, then Primeape's stats need to be 303 308 218 288 218.
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Post by t3h Icy on Aug 29, 2011 0:15:46 GMT -8
Hmm, but then we sort of take away from his fast Fighting role for him.
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Post by Consumptus on Aug 29, 2011 1:41:29 GMT -8
Aerodactyl can do it in RBY because it has no other (STAB) moves. Removing Psychic on Mewtwo was a bit heavy-handed in my opinion and unneeded. Mewtwo was fine, if a bit too versatile.
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Post by WaterWizard on Aug 29, 2011 6:35:31 GMT -8
Isa and I both thing anything faster than 288 is way too fast with that dual physical STAB and those attack stats. Compare him to Persian, who has the same speed... It's LOL. She has wayyy less attack. Gets Slash and Payday, but those still do less than his Hyper Beam.
How about just swap the attack and speed stats so it looks like this: 303 288 218 308 218.
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Post by WaterWizard on Aug 29, 2011 6:38:38 GMT -8
Consumptus, it really wasn't undue. He outspeeds 90% of the pokes, and he 1HKOs about 60% of them with a crit psychic. I think, considering what a Mewtwo fanboy Icy is and yet he initiated the nerfs, it will be okay now.
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Post by t3h Icy on Aug 29, 2011 8:32:15 GMT -8
I'm fine with either 288 308 or 308 288, I just think having a fast Fighting would be neat. Your call.
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Post by WaterWizard on Aug 29, 2011 10:07:30 GMT -8
I like him fast, too. Hitmonlee is already 288 speed (fastest) so it'd cool to have Primeape at 308.
Fighting/Normal, 303 288 218 308 218
Loses Rock Slide.
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Post by t3h Icy on Aug 29, 2011 10:25:07 GMT -8
All done.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Aug 29, 2011 10:33:08 GMT -8
So, uh, tell me why I should use Seaking over Raichu or Tentacruel?
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