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Post by t3h Icy on Sept 6, 2011 12:25:47 GMT -8
I haven't written about RBY in awhile, and thought to write about this. In RBY, despite the small number of viable Pokemon, there's a noticeable difference in how people play. Some players will play very cookie cutter using standard OUs and nothing weird, while others use the lesser OUs or even lower tier Pokemon and different moves on standard Pokemon. It's also possible to see players making very aggressive decisions, opposed to playing very carefully and not taking any large risks. So let's discuss this. When it comes to team construction, players that play standard Pokemon are more averaged out in terms of risk vs reward. Pokemon like Exeggutor, Alakazam, Snorlax, etc are able to handle most Pokemon and are very useful in general. However, using different movesets or different Pokemon may push out extra potential out of a team. Persian has a lot of different uses compared to Tauros and can be much more destructive when played at high level (on average, as luck is a factor). But, if the opponent has Gengar or is fine at dealing with Persian, it can be detrimental. Pokemon like this are more high-risk, high-reward. Slowbro is an excellent example of that. The reason why these Pokemon are not usually considered in the same class as Chansey, Tauros, etc is because they are not as consistent and/or require more skill to use effectively. Standard Pros: Very consistent, easy to use, requires less setups Cons: Less max potential than gimmicks, most players build teams to work against them Quirky Pros: Very high max potential, can lead to an easier win with proper setup, sometimes more difficult to counter/prepare for Cons: Less consistent, mistakes/bad luck are more damaging, requires more skill The other attribute that make playstyles differ is how the player plays the game. A player's aggression with bold moves, effective reads, etc can lead to faster games, which means less luck is involved. A defensive player tends to play much safer, doesn't take large risks and focuses more on abusing their Pokemon than their skills. In RBY, luck can affect both styles, and since luck is more likely to play a role in matches, most players tend to be at least somewhat aggressive. In GSC where luck is much less of a factor, you can see much more balance with aggression/defense, and both are viable. Aggressive Pros: Higher potential, leads to faster games so less luck is involved, works more with a player's skill Cons: Mistakes can be damaging, requires more skill Defensive Pros: Consistent with a player's skill, mistakes are less frequent and less damaging, easier to do Cons: Luck players a large factor in RBY, inconsistent with luck, difficult to make comebacks So what are the ways to play against each playstyle? Standard: Gimmicks will give you an advantage, but the trouble is selecting the correct one. If you play something different, you can possibly have the edge over the opponent, but if you make a mistake (say, Persian vs a team with Gengar), you'll be at a disadvantage. If you're confident with using whatever Pokemon and moves you need, do it. Otherwise, you can play standard as well and outplay them. Quirky: Players that use nontraditional stuff are harder to predict and prepare for. However, they're very likely to have an easy exploit (such as a Ground vs double Electric) and the battle will be significantly easier if you can abuse that. Otherwise, you may be struggling against the opponent. If you use a standard team that can't abuse, take more care with your predictions and gameplan. Aggressive: For aggressive players, they are going to take risks and try to make the perfect decision each turn. The easiest way to beat them is to have them make dire mistakes. Take your time to predict your opponent and outplay them, and stay one step ahead. If you are able to shut down their offense, you can start to play slower and chip away what's left. Defensive: Good, defensive players are rare in RBY, but can be tricky to deal with if you're not prepared. If you're able to take a lead, you should be able to maintain that for the rest of the match, so long as luck doesn't get in the way. Take caution with your Pokemon and plan out how you will beat each of the opponent's Pokemon. Always have backup plans. If you're able to stall, you can attempt to abuse luck. A game with a good metagame allows all possible playstyles to be viable. RBY is pretty balanced as far as gimmicks go, but is definitely an aggressive game. RBY Ubers on the other hand is much more defensive and very difficult to play aggressively. RBY UU is probably the most balanced in every way, but does slightly favor defensive play, but aggression is very possible. And ideally for RBYPlus, we want to balance everything. For fun, here's a chart I made. These are my opinions, and my ratings. It's also possible that people change how they play against me in particular, compared to others, as many players are able to play any way necessary. But for general use and what I think, here it is: Redness is how aggressive a player is, blueness is how quirky a player is. The purple corner is high risk, high reward, while the white corner is low risk, low reward.
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Post by davidchansey on Sept 6, 2011 12:46:56 GMT -8
I'll agree with that for myself at least, if not maybe more on the standard side. I agree with Garrin being defensive though
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Post by posthuman on Sept 6, 2011 13:24:40 GMT -8
Haha I love two-dimensional scales (psychology!). When I see this I feel like we should develop a measure or something to rate people. Nice job with this.
Your ratings definitely aren't perfect though; some of the players you've placed close together have very different playstyles in my opinion (for example spies and WW). But this is a cool idea and something we should further develop.
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 6, 2011 13:25:54 GMT -8
Um. Tauros is way better than Persian no matter whether there is or not Gengar. I don't understand very well what do you mean, but if something is standard is because it's better. Well, not really. Gengar is standard, but Lapras is 1000x better. Snorlax is much better than eggy but eggy is arguably more standard. For that reason I always use standard/best teams so lol, I don't know how I'm there. As for defensive, do you mean stalling/freezing? Because it's that easy to capitalize paralyzed chanseys/zams with snorlax/tauros/rhydon/golem that freeze/stall wars are dumb unlees you are completely offenseless. If you know for sure (ok 99%) chansey is switching into Starmie, Rhydon/Golem is going out vs Eggy etc is capitalizing these facts being aggresive? If you agree both questions then there are just two possible corners (all players are in the same diagonal segment). The red one and the blue one. The more red you are, the better you are. The standard playstyle in RBY is being aggressive. idk if the standard but the best one. They should be the same though. Being one step above your opponent if you are defensive is very difficult. You should be very sure to EQ with Rhydon vs Eggy or Starmie. To slam with Snorlax vs Lapras. etc. And after all, if you do that, you are being aggresive, right? "If you are able to shut down their offense, you can start to play slower and chip away what's left" If you are able to it's because you have been aggressive. You won't be able if all you do is switching chansey into starmie and ice beaming the other chasney, just to see how snorlax comes and breaks your defenses. For just "chip away" effectively and win you need to have a clear advantage. Otherwise the game is still open, and you need more than chiping away. And with a clear adv you win quickly
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Post by jorgen on Sept 6, 2011 13:43:18 GMT -8
I don't know if "gimmick" and "aggression" should be orthogonal. Generally, if you're going with a straight-up gimmick (and not just something slightly off-standard), you're going for something aggressive that takes advantage of an opponent's ill-preparedness and/or a turn or two of mistakes. If you're using a defensive gimmick, you give the opponent time to adjust without being able to actually punish their mistakes, which kinda defeats the purpose.
I do understand the pre-game versus intra-game angle, but generally, the team building process and intra-game play are interdependent. "Standard" gives you more flexibility (can play a variety of paces) but more vulnerability to anti-metagaming, whereas gimmicks offer less flexibility (aggressive or bust) but a greater ability to catch an opponent outside of their comfort zone.
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Post by t3h Icy on Sept 6, 2011 14:02:34 GMT -8
Crystal, Persian can be a lot better than Tauros when setup to be abused. Persian's Slash does roughly 1.33x Tauros's Body Slam and cuts through Reflect. Persian is a more high-risk, high-reward than Tauros; the risk being Persian when not going at her full potential is a worse Tauros (more or less), but the reward is Persian can do more damage and sweep certain Pokemon better. Standard usually means better on average, but not necessarily always better. Rhydon and Dugtrio is another simple example.
Defensive is more just playing carefully and taking as few risks as possible, stalling, etc. At least in my definition.
Aggression is usually better as RBY is an offensive game, but again, it's more high-risk, high-reward. You can do a bold move every turn and easily do worse than a defensive player who plays carefully. Skill is not related to the chart, but there is definitely a trend that aggressive players and quirky players tend to be better (but certainly not always).
Being ahead of the opponent defensively is definitely hard, which is why it's rare in RBY. In GSC, it's pretty common (I think). Also, it's possible to shut down offense without playing offensively yourself. Cloyster and Aerodactyl can do that, though both tend to naturally be aggressive from there. Nitro's Aerodactyl was played defensively and was able to shut offense down too, whereas I played mine aggro.
Jorgen, you're definitely right as that corner is generally blank for anyone that knows what they're doing, but that's more due to the nature of the game. The best gimmicky Pokemon I can think of that are used by defensive players are Hypno, Cloyster and Tangela. Each of them are trickier to use and not standard, but are generally used defensively and slowly.
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Post by WaterWizard on Sept 6, 2011 18:34:36 GMT -8
Haha wow! Great work. I love this and definitely agree.
I also utterly disagree with Crystal's post on every point. Totally.
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Nerd
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Posts: 182
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Post by Nerd on Sept 6, 2011 21:29:44 GMT -8
Never really thought about it this way, but it makes sense, I guess. I don't really know about the high-risk, high-reward thing, though. Defensive games suck because they end up coming down to RNG luck instead of one player earning a win by outplaying the other (assuming neither screws up), so if you're better than your opponent that's probably more 'high-risk'. Of course, they're both pretty luck-tastic due to RBY's crit rates, perma-freezing, and crappy accuracies.
By the way, I would argue that Tauros is much more aggressive and has a higher 'potential' than Persian. While Persian deals consistent damage with slash, Tauros averages almost the same due to it's crit rate and the para chance of BS. Tauros' superior movepool lets you hit ALL switch-ins for good damage, while Persian has to predict switches with more switches to pressure your opponent. And of course, hyper beam is extremely aggressive, and it's much more useful on Tauros than on Persian. Persian may do more consistent damage with slash, but with good prediction Tauros can do a lot more (or a bit less, if you predict poorly).
By the way, my teams are usually really quirky, but I've gotten lazy recently. I'll show off some of my gimmicks next time I play.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Sept 6, 2011 21:43:32 GMT -8
I'm more defensive than D'avid? I didn't know I was playing defensively. How do you classify defensive play in RBY, on a broader scale than just "playing carefully" and "stalling" (which is something I certainly hope I'm not doing when I play)? Other than that, really cool project. I don't think Quirky playing gives you that much of an advantage as you make it out to be though - there's only eversomuch you can hope to achieve with a Quirky playstyle.
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Post by WaterWizard on Sept 6, 2011 22:26:48 GMT -8
Tauros' superior movepool lets you hit ALL switch-ins for good damage, while Persian has to predict switches with more switches to pressure your opponent. This is actually completely untrue. With the exception of Gengar, Persian hits every* OU harder than Tauros. Also, I've said this a few times, and I'll say it again... Persian does something very important that no** other pokemon can do... Persian is the only physical powerhouse that outspeeds Tauros. This is key. Persian can revenge kill Tauros like no one else in the entire game. Alakazam, Starmie, Jolteon, and even Tauros simply cannot do what Persian does there. ~ * (Earthquake hits Jolteon slightly harder than Slash, but that point is made irrelevant by the reality that he is 2HKO'd by both Earthquake and Slash.)** (Aerodactyl is physical-oriented and faster than Tauros, but his unstabbed attacks pale in comparison to Slash.)
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Sept 6, 2011 22:28:21 GMT -8
Too bad he's totally shut down by the ghost of Clefable. He's pretty fun to use, though, especially as a late sweeper!
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Post by posthuman on Sept 6, 2011 22:42:47 GMT -8
Too bad he's totally shut down by the ghost of Clefable. He's pretty fun to use, though, especially as a late sweeper! Oh crap is that what Gender's supposed to be? He looks like it sort of I guess...
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Zilch
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What's in the box?
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Post by Zilch on Sept 6, 2011 23:34:23 GMT -8
Oh yeah. Gengar's soft and cuddly and only wants to be your best friend, after all. The soul eating thing is just a minor inconvenience.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Sept 7, 2011 0:39:53 GMT -8
Hey, where does prediction fall into this? Essentially there's two types of prediction as well (offensive and defensive), but can prediction be "standard"? If I predict that your Tauros will use Body Slam, I can go Gengar/Golem - defensive prediction, while you might predict that switch and do Earthquake/Blizzard instead - offensive prediction. How do you categorize that on the standard-quirky scale?
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Post by WaterWizard on Sept 7, 2011 1:08:45 GMT -8
Did you answer your own question? Prediction seems to go hand in hand with the aggressive/defensive factor [y] (aggressive prediction is aggressive, defensive prediction is defensive)... It doesn't have to fit into the standard-quirky movement [x]...
It's not a standard-quirky scale (1D), it's a standard-quirky/aggressive-defensive scale (2D).
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 7, 2011 3:50:50 GMT -8
Tauros can para / CH in the switch. That's why he BREAKS that often. With Persian you always know whats happening. The biggest adv of Persian though is vs things with Reflect (which is the main reason to use it ALONGSIDE tauros, aka over eggy/lapras/whatever), mainly Snorlax and Slowbro when resting to force them out, and vs para'd zam with reflect up that would otherwise be there forever without switching out. Otherwise Persian doesn't sweep / match up with anything better than Tauros does. Proven fact.
One thing I want to correct from my first post, is that you can have a "quirky" team and be agreessive (as quirky is WORSE than standard, but you not only can be worse by stalling). But how you do classify a Zam/eggy/kingler/chansey/lax/tau team? It's just a viable non-standard poke in a standard environment. I'll say (everybody will say) that Jolteon/kingler/machamp/gengar/jynx/persian team is quirky/non-standard, but this team is so bad that it is beside the point. I'd say the fist team is standard though, which inevitably implies for me that any quirky team is a bad team. Anyway the graphic ends up being aggressive/passive and good/bad (good/bad is the same as standard/quirky after all, or should be anyway).
Passive, aka stall stall stall forever doesn't work, because there are not walls for everything ( just about ANY physical sweeper). This might work in GSC because there are PHYSICAL walls, but only if you wall 6/6 pokes. Also Icy, you never go ahead of your opponent if you are stalling, you go a step behind, you respond an action passively (stalling). But if your opponent is worthless vs you it doesn't matter how many steps ahead he is, or if he predicts every turn. He is just worthless and period; he can't win (maybe you can't win either though). So isn't stalling more risky than being aggressive? You are doing nothing, just to see how your opponent does something, until you lose. Isn't this risky? The more passive you are, the more time your opponent has to break you.
So the point is, you can be aggressive and good, aggressive and bad (the aforementioned dumb team, or just playing bad) , but if you are passive you are bad. So, in the graphic, all players are in a triangle. The upper right one. If you are going down to passive you are inevitably going down to bad.
Wow, I love this discussion guys. =D
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Post by jorgen on Sept 7, 2011 4:22:01 GMT -8
Stalling in RBY doesn't consist of repeatedly switching in walls to match different threats. It consists mostly of forcing the opponent into playing the zam/chansey vs. zam/chansey matchups by way of reflect. Reflect on the switch to Lax, and all of a sudden, your physical push has been neutralized, and you're forced to fall back. To break this strategy, it generally requires an explosion (most reliable), getting tauros out early to go for the crit (not worth it), or using Amnesia (an uncommon strat because of how unlucky it can be). Or getting lucky by way of fps that prevent the setup of Reflect in the first place.
Zam is kinda iffy in this regard because he is vulnerable to SToss due to his low HP. Chansey, though, is the best staller in the game. It doesn't have the potential to hurt things like Zam does, but its high HP makes it immune to SToss for anti-stalling, Thunder Wave still lets it cripple offensive threats like Tauros, and ice beam lets it nail the freeze in the forced stall matchups. It generally eats para before setting up to make going for the freeze a "certainty" instead of the possible 50-50 with the opponent's Chansey.
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 7, 2011 6:34:58 GMT -8
You've said it Jorgen. Stoss+para forces Zam out, so stoss zam is the best reflect zam counter (and stoss chansey but who uses that). Zam is only a threat if he has reflect up and isn't forced to switch out. Then, you are forced to go to the defensive with Chansey, you are allowing your opponent to be offensive spreading para, setting up physical switches, or even sweeping if you are lacking options to switch-in to reset chansey's special. Otherwise you can get your Snorlax/Golem/Rhydon/Tauros before the Alakazam Reflects (assuming it's para), to capitalize zam's biggest weakness.
Both players switching between Zam and Chansey (switching between them forces your opponent to do so) shouldn't last very long as both players should be looking for getting his lax/rock in. Because if zam is repeteadly switching out, theres no reflect up.
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Post by WaterWizard on Sept 7, 2011 9:35:42 GMT -8
S-toss Zam sucks. You might be able to force out a Reflect Zam, but then Snorlax/Rhydon just takes 100HP and promptly KO's the Reflect-less Zam. Fail.
Also, Counter Zam dominates S-toss Zam.
Leave S-toss to Hypno...
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Post by garrinred on Sept 7, 2011 21:08:50 GMT -8
Lol. I have a corner! Whoo! And I only share the area with Lucas and Dragon and kind of David. I like that
However, I am building a new team and working on a new playstyle that I am hoping will catapult me to that awkward zone between Icy and Nerd. There seems to be some empty room up there, so I think that's where I'd like to set up shop. :-)
I am also working on a team that will make me even MORE defensive than I already am. I'm excited.
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Post by Consumptus on Sept 7, 2011 21:24:30 GMT -8
Nice chart and interesting analysis. I guess it is true in that I oscillate between aggressive and defensive a lot, and that inevitably leads to quirky play.
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Post by t3h Icy on Sept 7, 2011 22:09:24 GMT -8
Just restating that these are just my opinions. It would be cool to have an accurate chart as a group project though.
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Post by KiNGskruffi on Sept 8, 2011 3:19:47 GMT -8
And I'm unreadable? B)
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Post by Destiny Warrior on Sept 8, 2011 5:26:24 GMT -8
What about me (Defensive Standard) Interesting analysis.
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Post by t3h Icy on Sept 8, 2011 9:15:34 GMT -8
Haha, I just hadn't played you two in awhile and forgot how you guys play.
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Post by LucasBM on Sept 8, 2011 16:03:27 GMT -8
Is it possible to be quirky and defensive at the same time?
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Sept 8, 2011 16:06:28 GMT -8
I'm apparently close to being that.
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Post by LucasBM on Sept 8, 2011 16:36:35 GMT -8
Not close enough I mean, EXTREMELLY!
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Post by spies on Sept 8, 2011 20:48:17 GMT -8
playing defensive in RBY is just dumb imo so the players near the bottom are the worse ones :x
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Post by garrinred on Sept 9, 2011 11:28:41 GMT -8
playing defensive in RBY is just dumb imo so the players near the bottom are the worse ones :x At the risk of getting defensive about this, I happen to think I'm not part of "the worse ones". I mean, I'm not Mr. Undefeated like you, or Mr. Super Awesome like Nerd, but still. I've beaten Crystal in a tourney, I play on par with Isa regularly, and I can even hold my own against Icy or Con. And I've been getting better and better(while getting more and more defensive).
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