Screens on Starmie

[piexplode]

I know m9m seems to think that Starmie is at least usable with Light Screen or Reflect, whilst marcoasd seems to think that they're poor choices. I'm curious to hear your opinions.

Yeah, screen Starmie is a decent idea. Both on the same set is problematic, though, since you end up getting walled by a long list of things.

LS Starmie walls Zam and Slowbro impeccably. Reflect Starmie sweeps easily (much more easily than Reflect Zam) once Tbolters are out of the way. In either case I'd probably run Ice Beam (LS Starmie can actually stay in to freeze Chansey/Zam, and Reflect Starmie's basically indestructible so why not) along with Psychic or Tbolt for coverage. Or maybe Surf/Tbolt on the Reflect one, but then you can't get past Zam which is annoying.

We might want to move this discussion somewhere else, though.

from magic9mushroom here

I personally quite like the sound of testing them out and seeing how they play; it makes starmie into a different role to how it's usually used; for reflect I feel like your aim is to remove chansey primarily (your biggest obstacle), and then to a lesser extent, lapras, zapdos, jolteon, and slowbro [oh and rest jynx too]; a team should at least have a better than average way to take on most of these threats. Lapras has trouble switching in, and this can be to an extent built in mind when teambuilding, whilst jolteon and zapdos have issues with rocks and to a lesser extent chansey. Slowbro is a beast and you should always carry a few checks by default. LS Starmie seems interesting but poorer to use; it seems to me like a fast withdraw slowbro but without the defensive benefits. M9mbro beats tobybro 1vs1, it's just less handy versus alakazam. However the bluff of having what people usually expect of starmie  and the added speed perhaps separate it from slowbro. It seems to me that reflect starmie is like a fast tanklax with more speed and more problems (and less bulk) but it seems neat on paper.

I'm considering boltbeam reflect starmie [beam cos ur bulky af and never die, and cos freeze chance helps versus a lot of stuff (including zapdos); tbolt helps with opposing starmie and with slowbro].. I'm considering psychic>ice beam though [lategame without either zam or chansey in play, psychic hurts a lot for either of those].. it depends on whether you feel getting freezes or specdrops are more useful for you. Mega Drain or Leech Seed egg will always be a pain but it becomes more unbearable without an ice move. So, it seems mie has a lot of 4MSS, but what would you guys run on it, what with, and why?

[magic9mushroom]

Yeah, I think it's usable in OU. I've never (IIRC) actually used either screen on Starmie in OU, though; TWave is just so handy. I have used Light Screen Starmie in Ubers and it's saved my bacon against Mewtwo at least once.

[marcoasd]

Without a doubt, Reflect and Light Screen have great effects, and change Starmie's role.
The main problem is: is it worth to lose versatility on a pokemon that is already in trouble with 4MSS? I'd say no, but of course a little bit of testing would be good- given that it's done the right way.
Using Psychic, Light Screen, Thunder Wave, Recover is plain bad to me: you have a bad Alakazam that does close to nothing better. Slowbro scares you, Chansey can stall or crit, and without an ice move, things like Mega Drain Egg are an issue.

The Light Screen way, question: Which are the other 3 moves? Which MU I'm gonna upgrade? What's the role (staller, sweeper, status spreader..)? When does this become dangerous?

LS makes things pretty safe against Slowbro unless it has Psychic. It can cause Alakazam to waste a lot of PPs for nothing (switching into Zam is way easier than switching into 999 Slowbro).
But at the end of the day, Chansey can play the same role better, and I don't see myself using this to cover the team against Slowbro.
The moveset would look like LS/Ice Beam/Thunder Wave/Recover, or something else like Psychic/Thunderbolt over Thunder Wave, to avoid being walled by Lapras.
Covering Starmie's weaknesses is not the way to go (it's still on the losing end with CHs).

The Reflect way:

This looks more interesting, as Starmie can become physically unbreakable and very valuable against para'd Snorlax (as it can switch in pretty safely if it doesn't FP on the next turn).
The main reason to use this, is that you want Starmie to be more dangerous even if it's paralyzed.
Reflect and Recover are mandatory. An ice move is the only offence against Chansey and Exeggutor, while Thunderbolt is needed to hit Waters. Dropping Thunder Wave is not that easy, as it's arguabily Starmie's best move (Tauros...).
This Starmie can't be stopped with the easy paralysis+Explosion+revenge kill with Tauros combo, that is fairly common against Alakazam and regular Starmie itself.

Conclusion: Starmie is meant to be dangerous once its counters are gone. It has to be versatile, and while Reflect and Light Screen are good moves on their own, Starmie is not cut for those. Obviously there are specific uses, but not good enough.

[magic9mushroom]

Dec 5, 2014 2:35:15 GMT -8 marcoasd said:

LS makes things pretty safe against Slowbro unless it has Psychic. It can cause Alakazam to waste a lot of PPs for nothing (switching into Zam is way easier than switching into 999 Slowbro).
But at the end of the day, Chansey can play the same role better, and I don't see myself using this to cover the team against Slowbro.
The moveset would look like LS/Ice Beam/Thunder Wave/Recover, or something else like Psychic/Thunderbolt over Thunder Wave, to avoid being walled by Lapras.
Covering Starmie's weaknesses is not the way to go (it's still on the losing end with CHs).

If you're running Tbolt, you're pretty safe even vs. Psychic Slowbro. 2 or 3 specfalls before you crit is unlikely.

Reflect and Recover are mandatory. An ice move is the only offence against Chansey and Exeggutor, while Thunderbolt is needed to hit Waters. Dropping Thunder Wave is not that easy, as it's arguabily Starmie's best move (Tauros...).

Well, an Ice move certainly is the only way it's threatening Chansey, but on the other hand it's not that essential since it's not going to stay in for the freeze war anyway (unless Chansey's not running Tbolt). It's more important for Alakazam. Psychic hits all the Waters except Starmie itself and Slowbro, so it's a reasonable alternative if you have some other way of dealing with Bro.

Conclusion: Starmie is meant to be dangerous once its counters are gone. It has to be versatile, and while Reflect and Light Screen are good moves on their own, Starmie is not cut for those. Obviously there are specific uses, but not good enough.

Yeah, it's not as obvious an option as ReflectZam since Starmie doesn't have the raw power to monoattack and as such basically has to drop TWave for a screen.

[marcoasd]

Yeah, Ice Beam is more important vs Alakazam than Chansey.
For LS Chansey I assumed LS/Ice Beam/Thunder Wave/Recover, and even if you want to use Thunderbolt, you have to paralyze Slowbro beforehand in order to outspeed it, and CH Thunderbolt + Thunderbolt after a special drop won't kill (actually it's rare even without).
Mainly, I think it's not safe to stop Slowbro with a dedicated counter, especially if it causes a bad moveset.

[Isa]

Screens on Starmie is viable to some degree, but if you choose to use them, you will almost automatically lose out on one of Starmie's biggest assets, which is its blazing speed. Being able to switch in on Tauros and scare it out through the threat of Thunder Wave paralysis doesn't work as well if you're slower than Tauros, and if you're intending to use screens effectively, you must have them in place for more than one turn, and that's more than enough time for any team to paralyze Starmie, regardless of screen.