One egg, one cup

[Isa]

SPOILER: Click to show

So recently, the traditional Chansey moveset of Ice Beam/Softboiled/Thunder Wave/Thunderbolt has been challenged, and Reflect has been seen much more frequently, commonly dropping Thunderbolt, making for an epic tank but with limited offensive power. We've also seen Sing Chansey, Counter Chansey and I tried Psychic Chansey in my pride set versus Garrin, made for paralyzed Chansey dittos.

I'm not going to bother with different calculations, because we know that Chansey won't OHKO anything (unless she runs Counter), but what merits do these alternate movesets have? How do you counter Reflect or Counter Chansey? Also, suppose you have a team with Alakazam, Starmie with TWave and Exeggutor with Stun Spore. Can you drop Thunder Wave on Chansey for another move, like Reflect?

[davidchansey]

I ran psychic/softboiled/thunder wave/reflect the other day lololol

[Earthworm]

Reflect can be really nice if Alakazam and Chansey are gone, but the problem is that Chansey has to drop Thunder Wave or Thunderbolt to fit it. With the growing popularity of Snorlax (it's on basically every team) Reflect Chansey can at least force the opponent to go the "defensive" route with Alakazam/Chansey of their own.

Unfortunately, neither Alakazam nor Chansey are typically easy to take out, so Reflect Chansey becomes a lot less useful than the standard a lot of the time.

Counter Chansey is very good against Snorlax too, particularly if you aren't paralysed when you face it.

[garrinred]

Reflect Chansey is awesome. Get it paralyzed, make sure not to paralyze the opponent's, and then spam Ice Beam with no fear.

Of course it's most fun when the opponent's Zam/Chansey are dead. Reflect Chansey can laugh in Snorlax's face, and can even fight Tauros one-on-one with a good chance to cripple or kill it. It survives an Eggy Explosion, and if it was at full health, it also survives the non-crit follow-up attack and heals from there. Heck, at high health it survives a Lax SD. Also, it isn't actually afraid of AmensiaLax, because....what exactly is AmnesiaLax going to do to it? A 999 Surf or Ice Beam does less than 40%, less with a crit, and a Reflected Body Slam does even less than that, and won't kill even with a crit unless Chansey fps after it, maybe not even then.

More Reflect Chansey fun: If played right, it basically forces the opponent to duel Chansey with Zam. The result of this is a Zam that is paralyzed or frozen, and also drained of Psychic PP, its most precious resource. When doing this though, play very defensively. Zam is a beast, and he can and will kill Chansey if you are not careful. This is best done while Eggy is still alive, to avoid paralysis on anything more important when you switch out of special falls, but Zam and Starmie can work too.

However, like all pokemon, Reflect Chansey has weaknesses. Its greatest one is Amnesia Slowbro. Remember when I said a 999 Surf did less than 40%? That was without STAB. With it, Chansey will probably lose. The only option is to try to freeze it or to switch out. Other weaknesses include the other OU Waters, Starmie and Lapras. Cloyster too. Lapras can't touch Chansey, but Chansey can't touch Lapras either. Stalling ensues. Cloyster is the same way. Starmie is basically a slightly-weaker Zam, except it resists Ice Beam, so it can duel even harder. Also all non-Zam switch-ins have to be wary of Starmie's elemental attacks. There is also Jynx. Can't really hurt Chansey with anything, but can just chill there spamming Blizzard all day with no fear, making it hard to fight without a Water-type that absorbs Ice attacks. It can especially be a problem early-game before Chansey is paralyzed.

In conclusion, Reflect Chansey counters all of Standard Chansey's most common weaknesses, include the likes of Snorlax, Rhydon, and Tauros. In exchange however, it loses the ability to touch Lapras, Jynx, and Cloyster, and it becomes extremely weak to Slowbro. Can't hurt Starmie badly either. Is it worth it? Some, including myself, would say yes. It's definitely worth it if your opponent relies on physical power, as a Reflect Chansey instantly makes the game even more Special-oriented than it already was.

[Isa]

Yeah, against Garrin I was down 1-2 in a Bo5. I changed my team to include Psychic/Reflect Slowbro and Rest Jynx to counter his Chansey (Reflect was for his Snorlax). With Jynx against Reflect Chansey, spam your Psychics as long as Chansey is in (provided that it is paralyzed, if not, Blizzard) and get spec drops. When you're at ~100 HP, Rest. It stalls Reflect Chansey greatly because not only does Jynx resist Ice Beam, she also can't get frozen. If you get paralyzed (and you will), it's no big deal because it is gone after the Rest.

The reason I chose Jynx and not Lapras/Cloyster was mostly a matter of preference. Jynx can also actually do something against a paralyzed Reflect Chansey (Psychic) which Cloyster cannot, and Lapras is probably best of with Confuse Ray, then Body Slam spam to hope for a CH. Cloyster can threaten to explode, but it's probably better to just beat Chansey straightout without losing your own Pokémon.

If you're not afraid of getting frozen (which is all Reflect Chansey can do), Starmie works good. Spam Psychic all day, Recover when needed and still have PP remaining for powerful attacks such as Blizzard.

[t3h Icy]

All Chansey sets including Counter, Reflect and Psychic aren't too uncommon, but they're all nice alternative if you don't need Thunderbolt. You could also drop both Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave for more moves, but I strongly suggest always having Softboiled and Ice Beam.

Reflect Chansey is tough to stop, and I'd suggest using Alakazam or Chansey for a Freeze War. While you may not succeed in KOing, you might be able to scare the opponent into switching (with Special falls or Freeze risk, etc), and work from there later. With them, you could also let your HP slowly fall and purposely play predictably (healing repeatedly at the same percents) to try and bait a Physical out if you need to. Persian is also excellent vs Reflect Chansey.

Counter Chansey can be taken out in many ways, and simply throwing out Earthquakes on Counter is safe enough, but it's very risky if you predict wrong. Unlike Jynx though, Tauros and Snorlax may not 2HKO after Earthquake with Hyper Beam (or Body Slam obviously).

Psychic Chansey is mostly for Gengar, but can also be useful for giving Special drops to opponents like Alakazam, other Chansey, etc.

Psychic vs Gengar 134-114 (41%-35%)

Sing Chansey is a risk due to the accuracy, but if you hit with it, chances are that you'll be putting a good Pokemon to sleep, as many valuable Pokemon are used against Chansey (Tauros, Chansey, Snorlax). It's also a good way to make your Chansey difficult to KO safely.

Chansey has a lot of other fun moves too:

Seismic Toss Chansey allows her to actually KO some Pokemon with low HP like Alakazam, Jynx, Starmie, etc, but generally needs Paralysis support to work.

Light Screen Chansey is great for Alakazam and opposing Chanseys (so you can heal less and attempt to Freeze more). It's also bound to force out the Physicals. You could even use dual screen Chansey I suppose.

Defense Curl Chansey gives even more Defense than Reflect, but takes a lot longer to setup. It becomes pretty hard to stop though, but works best late.

Flash is silly, but could be useful.

And I still like the standard Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave, Softboiled Chansey. =D

[Isa]

...Defense Curl Chansey seems like a PAIN to face. One additional round of setup, then use it when you can/want to stall. Dual Screens (dropping TWave) also seems very annoying to get around, and don't get started with Defense Curl/Light Screen...

[garrinred]

The thing with Defense Curl Chansey is the sheer amount of PP. Madness.

[hipmonlee]

The problem I have with reflect Chansey is it makes switching in Tauros even easier that it normally would be. And reflect Chansey is definitely not better at crippling Tauros than thunderwave Chansey. To actually kill a Tauros with a reflect Chansey is very unlikely.

And it isnt exactly great against snorlax. For starters Selfdestruct is going to rape it, but its actually even worse than that.

Snorlax 3x bs + hbeam against reflect chansey does on average 703 damage exactly. So lets say chansey switches into a twave and reflects on switch to lax.

Lax bodyslams and does around 21%, chansey icebeams and does enough to usually 6hko. Now if Chansey doesnt softboiled this turn, it will be possibly be (and possibly probably be) in range of a ko should it fp next turn. If Chansey is softboileding every second turn, it will take it 9 turns minimum to kill Lax. Basically the likely outcomes are:

Chansey freezes lax, good for Chansey, except that this Chansey is kinda heavily relying on freeze to deal with other Chanseys and Alakazams, since it cant paralyse them.

Chansey gets CHed: Lax's ch chance is low, but 9 turns is a lot, and you can expect more shots than that since Chansey will be FPing.

Chansey gets consecutive FPs and is taken into HBeam Ko range: 4 chances minimum.

Lax gets brought to low health and Selfdestructs: Chansey is probably dead next turn. SD does 55% minimum, if Chansey had taken a BS (19% min) it is guaranteed to die to a golem EQ. You can expect a lot more damage than that on average, an average bodyslam followed by an average self destruct puts Chansey in ko range of basically everything. Exeggutors Megadrain has a guaranteed ko.

Golem can just explode, with similar results to Snorlax. I mean, that is better than if you hadnt reflected, but not better than if you had icebeamed on the switch in then switched out.

Plus, you have to consider when you will actually be setting up reflect. Against another Chansey, you are just wasting a turn you probably should have used ice beam. The same if your opponent switches Chansey in. If you really want to beat normals, use counter, thunderwave or sing.

Also please dont use psychic Chansey..

[jorgen]

Generally, when I see it (when I play Garrin or D'avid), it's using Reflect over Tbolt, not Twave. So it's just as good at crippling Tauros. Plus, unlike regular Chansey, who has to turn tail and run from Tauros (or just sacrifice itself), Reflect Chansey actually stands a chance against Tauros, barring a crit (which is fairly likely, but still, it makes the matchup much more difficult than Tauros would like it to be).

Twave also gives it a better shot against laxen by removing Lax's speed advantage against a para'd Chansey. Plus, if Lax is basically forced to rely on SD to beat Chansey, it's relying on a risky strat that, ultimately, prevents Lax from hurting anything else. Even if everything goes Lax's way in the Chansey-Snorlax matchup, in the grand scheme of things, forcing Lax to take that action is a victory in my book.

Also, it gets plenty of opportunities to set up reflect. It can feel like a "waste" of a turn in the matchups where Reflecting is possible; that is, unless you make a point of getting Chansey paralyzed beforehand. When para'd, setting up Reflect against opposing Chansey is a breeze, as is setting up on Starmie, Jynx, and a para'd Snorlax. Zam is also a good setup opportunity regardless of the paralysis status.

Long story short, Reflect Chansey is a real bitch to go up against. It doesn't flatout "beat" teams, but it neuters the opponent's offensive efforts while winning handily in stall wars after it eats para. The biggest issue is Slowbro, as well as its need to PP stall other things it should be beating outright (which still beats those things, mind you, but puts Chansey in a position where it really can't play the stall game with anything else.)

[davidchansey]

The only real problems that an icebeam/reflect/softboiled/twave chansey faces are lapras and cloyster. These are less of a problem if chansey is paralysed, to prevent freeze.
But also, this chansey is a problem for them too, as they can't do much in return either (unless lapras crits with bslam, which still only does 42-49%). Plus chansey can paralyse both of these, but admittidly rest does render this useless. A resting pokemon is always dangerous though.

Cloyster and lapras aren't that common anyway, compared to the likes of tauros and snorlax. Paralysing either of them and doing a bit of damage too is worth it imo, and occasionally it'll beat snorlax all together.
As for explosions, that's not necessarily a bad thing. In my eyes, chansey takes out a pokemon which most likely would've been a threat late game.
With your chansey gone, you will both likely have zam, but you will have snorlax whereas they will have chansey. And if that chansey doesn't have reflect... I'd say the odds are good depending on the rest of both teams.

As for counter chansey, I am still yet to try that out. After using it frequently, opponents will be aware of this and be very reluctant to bslam, and probably eq instead. This opens a whole new set of mind games...
For instance, you could switch to eggy when his snorlax uses eq against your chansey, fearing counter. Now they will suspect you don't have counter, and you could surprise them later on.

This is all just talk, and in reality fp's and crits hurt chansey massively. Isa and I both had the idea of using psychic chansey against Garrin's gengar, as quite commonly he switched it whilst sleeping into chansey.
Plus psychic chansey can put pressure on an opposing chansey, even if she isn't paralysed. It can help pp stall zam better than a standard chansey too if he is an obstacle for your team.

I think it was Zilch who recently used rest/stoss/twave and some other move, and it pressured zam like anything. I'm imagining the 4th move might've been reflect, giving some kind of hope against the lax/tauros switch in, and then trying for the twave. Or if you predict the switch back to zam, you could send out your own lax/tauros.

All in all, chansey is anything you want and need it to be. Normally I like to try for a freeze against another chansey, and just twave if I don't succeed. Against zam, I rarely ever freeze him before he destroys me or pressures me to switch out, so I just twave him and waste his psychic. I find tbolt less useful mainly because a water pokemon won't stay in on this chansey anyway, and they could always switch to a ground if they predict tbolt, or lax/tauros to finish her off if she's low enough on hp.

[t3h Icy]

Psychic Chansey isn't great, but does have some uses.

Also good stuff d'Avid. You're learning how to analyze a lot better!

[Zilch]

d'Avid, that Chansey's set was indeed Seismic Toss/Reflect/Thunder Wave/Rest. One of the strangest Chansey sets around, but it knocked Alakazam around like nobody's business.

[davidchansey]

Thanks Icy, that means a lot and also that chansey was completely unpredictable, and was completely awesome.

[Crystal_]

Reflect Chansey: Everybody knows the pros i guess, but if reflect chansey was that good it would be standard right?
I'm assuming Chansey is para; paralysing Chansey is the easiest thing in the world. Otherwise you can decide to take the stall, freeze, zam+chansey blah blah blah route.

Rest Snorlax should end up beating it (otherwise it wins stall war) unless chansey freezes first. This means no TWave, so more chances for Lax.
Tauros has more chances to beat chansey with reflect up than vice versa: 1 CH and gg.
Persian wins, but who uses that.
Zam forces it out. Get the Tauros/Snorlax as para'd chansey comes in so that you can get the slam before chansey has the chance to reflect. That's the key.
Double explosion or whatever. Snorlax with SD should still be able to trade though. At least get chansey at +-20%, then tau finishes chansey off.

Also, as you know, there is not tw + tbolt.
If no tbolt: No way to beat starmie or lapras, just para them (is this enough?) Rest lapras and rest cloy get free turns to wake up into you though, and believe me, this is not good at all. Same for bro, who obviously also sets up into you.

If no twave: No support move. This forces you to use Alakazam if you want a consistent way to spread para. Otherwise your Snorlax/Tauros/Rhydon/etc are more likely to face unparalysed Chanseys and Alakazams. No twave decreases your already small chances to beat tauros. More Slowbro problems. Snorlax, Eggy, anything you can think of Chansey enjoys paralysing.