Stadium with (corrected) Wrap
Dec 11, 2011 9:12:21 GMT -8
Post by jorgen on Dec 11, 2011 9:12:21 GMT -8
So, since this is the metagame that PO's main server is going to be going with, I figure it'd be relevant to launch a discussion about this.
Yes, I know there was a Stadium thread earlier, but it also had a Tradeback element and it was old. Plus, this is relevant with the PO launch of RBY imminent, so all in all, I felt it warranted a new thread.
First, and most importantly, Hyper Beam gets a hell of a nerf, not being able to reset after a kill. Still, it might be useful for getting kills since not a lot of other options are out there (Double-Edge? You kidding me?) You might see more things like Mega Kick Snorlax, though, but Tauros' fourth? I daresay, Stomp might become relevant and not just some stupid gimmick. Of course, there's also the increased Cloyster encounter chance, so maybe Tbolt is preferred.
Second, Counter, iirc, gets its mechanics fixed and won't bounce an attack back after a FP, switch, or recharge turn (I could be wrong, but from what I've found on Counter, it's different for stadium). This limits a lot of what people like to do with gimmicks around here (although punishing Hyper Beams becomes a lot less relevant). Most notably, Counter Jynx is much less effective since it can't hit the switch-in with it when DE Eggy switches out. Counter is still a good move, but it can't be used to play all the games it could be used for here.
Third, trapping moves like Wrap are going to be allowed. On one hand, the mechanics will be fixed (35/35/15/15 odds of 2/3/4/5 turns), but on the other, it's still Wrap. Also, I think the mechanics are slightly different in Stadium (iirc, if the Wrapee switches out in the middle of a Wrap, no attacks are issued on that turn, which is a further nerf of the move in Stadium). Imo, it's going to be too unreliable to be "standard", but stuff like Cloyster and AgiliWrap Dnite will see healthy enough usage to annoy. Only time will tell if the PO people are sufficiently annoyed to ban the move themselves (given the way the Pokemon community had handled Gen 5 stuff, they most assuredly will), but it's something that will have to be played around for the first few weeks. I anticipate a lot of Gengar/Starmie/Lapras usage to limit the effectiveness of these threats, especially Dnite.
Fourth, Sleep Duration will be cut. Instead of being incapacitated for 1-7 turns, a Pokemon will only be incapacitated for 1-3 turns, making a sleep move last, on average, as long as Rest. This seriously nerfs sleep, and lets common Sleep Absorbers actually wake up more often than not, even in offensive matches. 2 sleep inducers on a team becomes much less attractive, and even 1 sleep inducer begins to see questionable "necessity". Still, sleep will be handy for getting Snorlax or Tauros in without a scratch, evenif it doesn't have the 5-v-6 impact it has in the carts. But then again, with Wrap legal, couldn't you just accomplish the same thing that way? For this reason, dedicated sleepers like Jynx and Egg will probably see reduced usage, the forrmer falling off the map and the latter dipping down into Starmie's tier. The usage of the other major sleeper, Gengar, will probably be a push with this and Wrap Dnite being legal. One reason for using it will drop while another will come into being. Also, stuff like Sing Chansey and Lapras will probably be all but extinct.
Oh, and Substitute is fixed, too. That will probably be Tauros' fourth, now that I think of it. Block those Twaves from those Chanseys and para'd Zams. It'd also be plenty helpful for a bunch of other things that have trouble finding fourth moves. I'm having trouble thinking of other specific instances where this might see a usage spike, though, so maybe the fix isn't going to be as impactful as it seems, outside of providing Tauros with a fourth in lieu of the nerfed Hyper Beam.
Anything else I might have missed? I feel like these are the big ones, though my off-hand knowledge of some specific Stadium differences is a bit lacking, so I could be a bit inaccurate in some parts, and could be leaving out others.
Yes, I know there was a Stadium thread earlier, but it also had a Tradeback element and it was old. Plus, this is relevant with the PO launch of RBY imminent, so all in all, I felt it warranted a new thread.
First, and most importantly, Hyper Beam gets a hell of a nerf, not being able to reset after a kill. Still, it might be useful for getting kills since not a lot of other options are out there (Double-Edge? You kidding me?) You might see more things like Mega Kick Snorlax, though, but Tauros' fourth? I daresay, Stomp might become relevant and not just some stupid gimmick. Of course, there's also the increased Cloyster encounter chance, so maybe Tbolt is preferred.
Second, Counter, iirc, gets its mechanics fixed and won't bounce an attack back after a FP, switch, or recharge turn (I could be wrong, but from what I've found on Counter, it's different for stadium). This limits a lot of what people like to do with gimmicks around here (although punishing Hyper Beams becomes a lot less relevant). Most notably, Counter Jynx is much less effective since it can't hit the switch-in with it when DE Eggy switches out. Counter is still a good move, but it can't be used to play all the games it could be used for here.
Third, trapping moves like Wrap are going to be allowed. On one hand, the mechanics will be fixed (35/35/15/15 odds of 2/3/4/5 turns), but on the other, it's still Wrap. Also, I think the mechanics are slightly different in Stadium (iirc, if the Wrapee switches out in the middle of a Wrap, no attacks are issued on that turn, which is a further nerf of the move in Stadium). Imo, it's going to be too unreliable to be "standard", but stuff like Cloyster and AgiliWrap Dnite will see healthy enough usage to annoy. Only time will tell if the PO people are sufficiently annoyed to ban the move themselves (given the way the Pokemon community had handled Gen 5 stuff, they most assuredly will), but it's something that will have to be played around for the first few weeks. I anticipate a lot of Gengar/Starmie/Lapras usage to limit the effectiveness of these threats, especially Dnite.
Fourth, Sleep Duration will be cut. Instead of being incapacitated for 1-7 turns, a Pokemon will only be incapacitated for 1-3 turns, making a sleep move last, on average, as long as Rest. This seriously nerfs sleep, and lets common Sleep Absorbers actually wake up more often than not, even in offensive matches. 2 sleep inducers on a team becomes much less attractive, and even 1 sleep inducer begins to see questionable "necessity". Still, sleep will be handy for getting Snorlax or Tauros in without a scratch, evenif it doesn't have the 5-v-6 impact it has in the carts. But then again, with Wrap legal, couldn't you just accomplish the same thing that way? For this reason, dedicated sleepers like Jynx and Egg will probably see reduced usage, the forrmer falling off the map and the latter dipping down into Starmie's tier. The usage of the other major sleeper, Gengar, will probably be a push with this and Wrap Dnite being legal. One reason for using it will drop while another will come into being. Also, stuff like Sing Chansey and Lapras will probably be all but extinct.
Oh, and Substitute is fixed, too. That will probably be Tauros' fourth, now that I think of it. Block those Twaves from those Chanseys and para'd Zams. It'd also be plenty helpful for a bunch of other things that have trouble finding fourth moves. I'm having trouble thinking of other specific instances where this might see a usage spike, though, so maybe the fix isn't going to be as impactful as it seems, outside of providing Tauros with a fourth in lieu of the nerfed Hyper Beam.
Anything else I might have missed? I feel like these are the big ones, though my off-hand knowledge of some specific Stadium differences is a bit lacking, so I could be a bit inaccurate in some parts, and could be leaving out others.
