Snorlax / Celebi : OU or Uber?

[Crystal_]

yeah that's the question. At the moment Lax is OU and Celebi is Uber.

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm of the opinion make both OU, and test them.

Hrrmmm... Smogon has success with mashup tournaments, maybe we could have a RBY/GSC mashup tournament.

[WaterWizard]

I'm thinking either ban Snorlax or add Ho-oh/Celebi back into the game.

www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76584&page=2

Borat (an authority on GSC) is very convincing.

[subsmoke]

Borat is a nerdy arrogant little twit is what he is

Anyway yeah I think Snorlax might be uber. They made Salamence uber in dp just because of its power right? Snorlax is almost as powerful and it has huge defenses, less weaknesses and a big ass set of moves to pick from. Only thing it doesn't have is speed.

I dunno about Celebi but I gotta think leech seed, leftovers and high defenses would be pretty tough for alot of stuff to overcome.

[WaterWizard]

Snorlax is certainly better in GSC than Salamence is in DPPt.

What I'm doing right now with my GSC teams is using ONE of Snorlax/Ho-Oh/Celebi on my team. So right now I've got Ho-oh, and no Snorlax. Just testing out their power.

[subsmoke]

K man I'll test it out with you if you wanna. I think Ho Oh is uber. Got a pretty wide move pool, huge special defense and recover.

[WaterWizard]

Ho-Oh is the least powerful of the three, imo.

[pocket]

Borat makes an argument of banning LK Lax, not Snorlax. He presents some hard counters for every different Snorlax out there. These counters are compromised with the unexpected LK. Snorlax is like RBY Tauros - extremely prevalent, but not impossible to counter.

As for Celebi, I believe it would make lives of mixed sweepers as well as specialized offense even more difficult with the additional defense Celebi brings. The combination of its decent typing (Electric resist, Fighting resist, Ground resist), its excellent defensive stats AND Speed, as well as access to Recover and support moves makes it a great support pokemon to play with and a real nuisance to play against. Miltank would become a poor-man's Celebi in many respects. It would most likely be the best Machamp counter one can ever hope for. Only Charizard's Fire Blast, Heracross' Megahorn, Curse Skarmory's Drill Peck, Perish Trapping, a powerful Explosion (ie not from Gengar) or a BDrum STAB / super-effective move has enough power to consistently dispatch Celebi. HP Bug may also become an option on monsters like Machamp, Marowak, and Rhydon.

As far as Ho-oh, I have no comment. I personally believe the GSC metagame can deal with whatever Ho-Oh can dish out offensively, and I do not believe it will provide any distinguished defense or support for a team

[Crystal_]

Snorlax is OU and Celebi is Uber only because of in-game reasons. Snorlax should be Uber due to its power, but it has been OU for some years and this is a solid reason to remain being (only for Smogon?).

[WaterWizard]

Agreed: Ho-Oh is easily killed with any rock move or stab thunder moves, etc. Ho-Oh is totally OU.

I disagree with the notion that "Snorlax is like RBY Tauros." Snorlax is like RBY Agility Wrap Dragonite, maybe better. Snorlax has no easy solid counter. Lovely Kiss deals with Machamp/Skarm. Snorlax can 2hko so many pokemon and he falls to almost nothing. Even +2 Espeon can't take him down. Snorlax is the most feared pokemon in GSC.

Celebi definitely slows the game down a bit, but she gets hit hard by HP bug from any physical pokemon.

Celebi helps balance Snorlax out a bit. Snorlax is still better and still nearly unstoppable.

I'd say Celebi & Snorlax, or neither.

[Nerd]

Not only is Snorlax clearly uber, he is one of the best ubers. Sure you can allow other ubers to 'balance' him, but that would just be playing ubers, not OU.

However, Smogon has Snorlax as OU (and celebi uber). That gives us two options; use Smogon's rules/tiers and beat them with them, or make our own (better) rules/tiers any play among ourselves. Since we have such a small community, option two wouldn't work very well; my reccomendation is to practice with Smogon's rules. Otherwise, we'll either never play anyone or have to adjust to those rules before every tournament.

Also note that Smogon has changed their tiers and rules 'recently'; Hidden Power legendaries are unbanned and the tiers have been shaken up. This kinda screws over the existing UU metagame but obviously OU still allows the same pokemon.

In summary: Although Snorlax is unbalanced, I say to stick with Smogon's tiers. Just remember to abuse Snorlax as much as possible.

[Zilch]

Snorlax always carries Leftovers, right? So you'd think that something like Thief Skarmory would be able to cripple him a fair deal.

[Nerd]

Remember that Snorlax 2HKOs skarmory with fire blast, can use LK to put it to sleep, and even without leftovers can regain health more than enough health to tank with rest (+ sleep talk) or take out just about anything with selfdestruct.

Snorlax is broken because of both stats and movepool. There are too many options to be countered. Every team has a snorlax; the hard part is picking the moves, since you can only have one.

I try to explode on Snorlax if possible to take him out ASAP (especially when I'm not using an OU team). He's by far the most valuable member of any team, probably still worth if if he took two spaces.

[Crystal_]

But I certainly cannot definitively say that its overall effect on the game is bad.

This is definitely the main argument for banning something.

[borat]

I've always preferred a healthy metagame to a shitty one that just has the overall power ramped down a notch.

Celebi is unhealthy metagaming. You can't possibly tell me you have fun playing with it/against it. It's just +100 unnecessary turns, as well as upsetting the current offense vs defense seesaw, which is the closest it's ever been. Shit like Marowak is being used outside of Jolteon teams is "new" (2006-2007; not new to you guys, but to us), Machamp threatening ever team legitmately (as opposed to the pre-2008 of just hitting everything hard, but koing nothing), and Exeggutor rocking up OU the way it's meant to. Blissey and Skarmory has become as unreliable as ever, and Miltank has taken a pretty harsh hit as well. Bellers are becoming the crutch they're meant to be. Celebi needn't come back.

And no, "just use HP Bug" isn't a viable counterargument. HP Bug Steelix/Espeon/whatever is far outside the reasonable norm to countering something and arguing it's viability.

Ho-oh's just fine though. However, with Recover, it can be a bitch to kill (as in, Ho-oh has a great chance of coming out alive against Starmie). I have no gripes against it personally.

However, "Ho-Oh is easily killed with any rock move or stab thunder moves, etc. Ho-Oh is totally OU." That's a horrible argument. How about I counter with not sending in Ho-oh into a STAB rock attack? How will you kill it? Shit like this was the thinking in 2000-2001. "Team can't kill Skarmory, so -1 pokemon, +1 charizard, done." That doesn't solve anything. I mean, using the same argument: "Mew is easily killed with any stab dark move or stab bug moves, etc. Mew is totally OU."

Good luck grotesquely testing out a Snorlax-less metagame and coming to a definitive conclusion though. I'd stick with it for all intents and purposes, and if you're curious, try hosting a lax-less tourney or something. Snorlax is good and bad, and in my eyes, more good than bad.

I try to explode on Snorlax if possible to take him out ASAP (especially when I'm not using an OU team). He's by far the most valuable member of any team, probably still worth if if he took two spaces.

That is the primary thinking of new players. That is also the primary reason why they lose.

You shouldn't be consistently sacrificing two-three pokemon to save/kill snorlax. Perhaps on occasion, but if that's your thinking impulsively, then... get better.

[Nerd]

Snorlax is overpowered. You just don't want it to change because you're so used to it being OU. If ingame it was an 'uber' pokemon, you would say it was clearly uber. If there was no ingame and no pokemon were ingame 'ubers', you would look at the pokemon more objectively and say it was uber.

Borat, I remember I played you a couple times (back when I played GSC), and wrecked you with UU teams, so maybe you should 'get better'. I never said I sacrificed two-three pokemon to save/kill snorlax, I just said that I like to explode on it if possible to take it out. Explosion greatly speeds up the game and a 1:1 trade to take out a snorlax is always a good deal because he is so overpowered (especially when it's UU vs OU).

Snorlax over-centralizes the OU metagame and IMO the game would be better without it. However, it is considered OU by smogon and other pokemon communities, and since we don't have many GSC players, I advise keeping Snorlax as OU (so RBY2K10ers are prepared for it in off-site tournaments).

[borat]

You just don't want it to change because you're so used to it being OU... you would look at the pokemon more objectively and say it was uber.

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure I know what I want more than you know what I want. And "uber" shouldn't be a mere classification of what's "strong". I've always preferred a healthy metagame to a shitty one that just has the overall power ramped down a notch.

Borat, I remember I played you a couple times (back when I played GSC), and wrecked you with UU teams

Bold claim that needs to be backed with examples. CC is not UU. I've never played against UUs, not even with UUs for over 6 years now, I'm wayyy too good for that. Get your facts straight. And lie better.

Snorlax over-centralizes the OU metagame

Boring argument that doesn't work for GSC (I know, because I use to make it).

and IMO the game would be better without it.

Too bad my opinion weighs more than yours. Sucks, but it's true. Love.

[t3h Icy]

lol

[WaterWizard]

rofl

[coletrain]

Nice edit WW

[Crystal_]

So do you think LK Lax banned, LK + DrumLax banned, all banned, no one banned...
And Celebi (+100 unnecessary turns as Borat says?)

[Crystal_]

Going back, LKDrumlax should be banned. Opinions. Celebi? Maybe back to balance the meta?

[borat]

I really only have a problem with agi pass to lk drumlax tbh. You can play around anything else.

No, celebi should not be unbanned.

Ho-oh - recover is still fine imo.

And I'm annoyed at the sheer amount of battles that become curselax vs curselax.

[Zilch]

I'm no GSC buff, but would Psych Up be viable for dealing with Curselax? I already know about Roar/Whirlwind, but I was thinking this could be a fun option, too.

[borat]

No, because a lot of curselax's power is from hits on the switch. This is what prevents Umbreon from being the "true" curselax counter it was years ago. HOWEVER, I think Growl/Charm/Rest/Sleep Talk still deals with all known forms of non drum/sub curselax (aka DE/BS combined with EQ/FB/LK).

[Nitro]

Jan 19, 2011 16:17:10 GMT -8 borat said:

I really only have a problem with agi pass to lk drumlax tbh. You can play around anything else.

Totally agree. LK lax is forced to have only one attack (which some things are immune/resistant to) if it wants to keep all critical moves (rest, curse/drum).

As for agility pass, there's no excuse for letting an agility pass get off really. What's really worth banning is a trap sleep passing smeargle or trap sand attacking umbreon. Those are the only things that basically can't be truly stopped from passing.

[Crystal_]

No rest. LK+Drum+normal+EQ is the standard lkdrum in all non-stall teams.
However, I think that it's one of the main reason of why stalls are slightly inferior to offense.
Yea Ho-oh could be fine. Non-recover Lugia? So i'd not add them in the standard meta...

[Nitro]

.....it is?

Regardless, that's a huge flaw. That Lax loses all ability to anchor defensively for a non-stall (which is basically necessary imo) and basically can't switch in to anything. Furthermore it still loses horribly to skarmory if it doesn't manage to sleep skarm, and even if it manages to get a drum off it's probably going to just end up trading 1 for 1 with something. Might take down 2 if you're really caught off guard.

[borat]

Wait what? That's... not the standard at all. I'd say Rest LK Drum DE/Return/BS is what I'd consider "standard LK Drumlax" (the name itself doesn't really give you any flexibility with variations does it?). No Rest non-passed isn't dangerous provided you're aggressive enough. In worst case scenarios, you give up an explosion to stop it.

Lugia's not fine with or without recover.

[Crystal_]

Against stall teams it's pretty easy to catch your opponent not being offensive (in a switch) though, and there's no explosion. And EQ can beat secondary normal resister after Skarm/Forre/whatever is LK'd (which leaves the matchup as a constant guess, in which you are in disadvantage since you don't even know if it has LK). It will still beat 2 more or so pokes since there's not stall poke that can do +20 actually. And LKRest (no EQ) with bell (stalls) can own other stall teams a way that's not healthy imo, unless they run ghost. I think that banning LKDrum will make the team more balanced (and you also wanted to ban it, Borat).