What do you think is better now?

[Crystal_]

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Roar
- Thunderbolt

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Whirlwind

Suicune @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Roar
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

Starmie @ Leftovers
- Psychic
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Surf

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam / Return
- Earthquake
- Rest

Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
- Body Slam
- Growl
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink

OR

Zapdos @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunderbolt

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Whirlwind

Suicune @ Leftovers
- Surf
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Cloyster @ Leftovers
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Rest
- Surf

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam / Return
- Earthquake
- Rest

Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
- Body Slam
- Growl
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink

Any other variation(s)?
BS / Return / D-E?
etc

[Nitro]

First team is way better. Basically both teams rely on drumlax to win and raikou provides the special wall you need to free up lax from any defensive duties (by walling electrics). Spikes is nice to have but ultimately not worth it imo compared to the extra coverage and general defense suicune gives you, plus I'm not a huge fan toxic or rest cloyster in general.

2nd team, as the game goes on, will find that it needs snorlax to switch into electrics. This will in turn slow down your ability to get your lax going offensively, and the entire key to this type of team is drumming with speed.

[borat]

You mean cloy vs suicune? Well, rest cloy is just so stupidly passive it's annoying. And seeing that you're really not keeping spikes down (bar extreme prediction) vs starmie, it's going to be more or less up to drumlax vs stall teams. Roar spikes seems like a long shot.

And vs quicker teams, spikes can help loads. But cune is stops some pretty annoying stuff the team has problems with otherwise (including not having a talker in general). Does that outweigh spikes? Maybe. Not sure. Hard to say imo.

Zapdos has no business on this team with that set lol. Zapdos isn't roaring jolteons the same way Raikou is.

[Crystal_]

Few things, i meant STIce Zapdos and RS Cloyster + SUICUNE for second team. I really lost my mind at copypasting and changing stuff from netbattle... =/
So things is more or less STZapdos + Cloyster vs Raikou + Starmie
Sorry lol

[Nitro]

I'm confused. Suicune and Cloyster on the same team now? Edit the post with the teams so I can see what you're talking about.

Also regarding the first team - drop roar on suicune. Roar on suicune is pretty worthless without spikes. Vaporeon can still last poke you and skarm/raikou will phaze whatever needs to be phazed better. With 2/3 of Suicune's ST options doing no damage he's extremely vulnerable to setups during sleep, defeating the point of ST. You can go toxic there to threaten quicker stuff or just straight surf IB which shuts down mixed attacking shit pretty hardcore.

[Crystal_]

Well, if I now, it's going to sweep me, I will try to avoid a last poke Vap, and even there, Raikou / Snorlax can defeat it 1 on 1. This Suicune still maintain nearly utterly the ability to counter T-tar / Nidoking / Jynx / Houndoom etc imo, giving Dnite to Raikou / Zapdos, though in Zapdos team, I'll probably use ST Ice Beam Cune.
And as for enemies setting up, I don't actually think IB makes much of a difference, since they are likely to set up against Surf + IB anyway and forced to switch out as well no matter what I use.
I'll probably miss random freezes against stalls (or any team tbh) and hitting Egg though, but otherwise Vaporeon completely goes through the team, especially with spikes (probably it's because i'm very bad, idk).

[Nitro]

Roar Suicune makes more sense with spikes on the team. I love roar Suicune with spikes but without them it's pretty worthless. Roaring Vap is cool but ultimately you're still going to need to play your electric correctly to deal with it. FYI, Snorlax tends to lose to Vaporeon in a straight up one on one.

First team is much better, though. My favorite version of this team is LK DE drumlax with Ttar instead of Suicune. TTar: RSlide Pursuit Roar Rest. Stuffs Gengar and HP Fire Egg (which seems to be making a comeback), along with Fblast laxes. These are the most threatening things to your team. Drum Fblast lax destroys this team.

[WaterWizard]

Mar 2, 2011 7:53:52 GMT -8 Nitro said:

FYI, Snorlax tends to lose to Vaporeon in a straight up one on one.

heh

[Crystal_]

"Drum Fblast lax destroys this team. "
So does LKDrum afterall. Anyway, does FB DrumLax exist? BTW, I did use it, but I finally decided to go LKDrum.
Ttar is another option I have considered myself (and in the past used it over miltank, and no Ubreon obv), but then my team becomes rather weak to ttar; HP doesn't 3HKO Umbreon iirc, and DP has 50% acc and 8 PP. And Umbreon completely stops Egg; while with Ttar im going to struggle against GD Eggs.

[Nitro]

I just don't think Suicune works well at the speed you're moving. I think Suicune can be played at 2 speeds. Really fast or really slow.

Out of the bulky defensive phazers/walls it probably is the most well-rounded as far as how many things it can switch into if it has to. The thing is it doesn't hard counter any of the more potent setups. So I think it could be played well as basically the one universal stop gap on a really fragile offensive team that just needs something general to take switches. The other place it's useful is as a backup wall (this is the way suicune is most commonly used), just an insurance wall on an ultra stally team that's already using all the typical walls that hard counter most threats. It provides that extra insurance that guarantees that stuff like nidoking and vaporeon are absolutely not going anywhere. I think you have to sacrifice this extra insurance on a team like this, where you could really use a more definitive coverage-based wall to bide the time you need to win with snorlax.

[borat]

I'm not sure how Snorlax loses to Vaporeon in a straight up 1v1... but yeah.

And what HP doesn't 3shot umbreon? What's HP?

[Crystal_]

Hidden Power Fighting (does 29-34%)

[borat]

I'm not following your train of thought. How does adding ttar make it weak to ttar again?

And where does umbreon come into this?

[Crystal_]

Umbreon has a higher chance of walling ttar than another ttar. imo

[jorgen]

Of course Umbreon is a better wall than Ttar. Ttar is better off being played offensively than as a wall anyway, since the pool of things it walls is fairly specific (and certainly doesn't include other Ttar).

Regardless, should you forgo suicune for Ttar, stuff like miltank, starmie, raikou, skarmory, and zapdos can all handle opposing Ttar depending on the set. And with Ttar over miltank, you get to keep suicune, a STer no less. Ttar isn't really that big an issue in either scenario.

[Crystal_]

But without spikes Ttar comes Skarm forever to attack from there.

[borat]

How is that any different if you use umbreon? Stalls give away "free" switches regularly.

How is ST suicune/Skarm not drumlax bait?

[Crystal_]

That's the reason why Umbreon. With no solid counter there's really no way I can kill ttar outside of a general drumlax sweep.
Hey Borat, having fun with italians right?

[borat]

I fail to see how Umbreon would help in killing ttar.

Yeah, I troll everyone who think they're better than they actually are.

EDIT: Since the obvious response to this is: "well umbreon walls ttar". So does Miltank. And does so without giving tons of openings.

Umbreon's good for a few things (gengar/egg being the notables), but ttar isn't a standout reason.

[Crystal_]

Miltank walls physical hits from ttar as Umbreon does. However Umbreon takes Crunchs better. If Miltank takes a Crunch that lowers spc, I will be in a really nasty situation. Umbreon just offers extra defense against ttar imo.

I don't know if I mentioned, but the reason I changed Suicune in favour of a pursuiter is LKDrumlax. And Umbreon does better than ttar imo (Egg/gengar/Ttar/even all-out Snorlax) in a stall team.

[borat]

If ttar crunches, then it's not doing something else. Go to Snorlax and reset? If it crunches and pursuits, then cross something else off that list. Problem with ttar was always it not having enough moves to do what it needs to.

That and, DP has 4 hits in it. And it needs EQ to hit Raikou. And tbolt/fblast to hit skarm.