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Post by GGFan on Dec 21, 2011 7:48:15 GMT -8
Type/s: Water/Flying HP: 393 Attack: 348 Defense: 256 Speed: 260 Special: 298 OverviewWith a prodigious BST and an excellent movepool, one might wonder why Gyarados isn't OU. Unfortunately, Water/Flying stymies his productivity in a metagame where at least two Pokemon will wield Thunderbolt. Furthermore, he really only receives STAB on one type, which doesn't cut it when Starmie, Chansey, Lapras, and others can so easily switch-in against it. And, no access to Thunder Wave means that Gyarados has to rely on Body Slam to paralyze, whereas other Pokemon don't need to cross their fingers so often. However, despite these set-backs, Gyarados can be a formidable foe if played carefully. STAB or not, Gyarados can still somewhat utilize that enormous 348 attack stat. OUMixed sweeper~Hydro Pump ~Blizzard/Thunderbolt ~Body Slam ~Hyper Beam Despite its shaky accuracy, Hydro Pump is Gyarados' strongest attack and should always be used in OU. Tauros and Snorlax are 2HKOd and 3HKOd on average respectively, and the occasional crit further highlights its superiority to Surf. Blizzard is his most effective way of hitting Exeggutor and Zapdos, and is vastly preferred over Thunderbolt because he can actually eliminate Exeggutor with it rather easily (if it explodes, it's still eliminated), whereas Starmie and Lapras will neutralize him very quickly. However, Thunderbolt is still Gyarados' best weapon against Cloyster, who otherwise can switch-in against anything Gyarados has to offer. Body Slam is essential because many Pokemon can switch-in, most notably Chansey, who takes about 30% and might get paralyzed. Starmie can also switch-in, and being able to paralyze it 1/3rd of the time is much better than hitting it with Thunderbolt. Hyper Beam is mainly for Chansey, who takes about 80% from Body Slam and Hyper Beam combined--which isn't bad at all. Because Gyarados is part Flying, it's best to try to take advantage of it. He can switch-in into any Earthquake with impunity, which gives him quite a few opportunities to come in. The last thing Tauros and Snorlax want to do is trade blows with Gyarados, so you can predict this and hopefully paralyze the incoming Starmie/Chansey. This strategy especially applies to Golem and Rhydon, who face the possibility of being OHKOd if they stay in. Other optionsReflect is incredibly useful once Chansey and Starmie are dead. A set like Hydro Pump/Blizzard/Reflect/Rest can work if you're willing to try to play around special attackers. Favorable match-upsGolem and Rhydon don't want to mess around with Gyarados. Tauros and Snorlax can only 3HKO Gyarados, but Gyarados 2HKOs Tauros and is faster than Snorlax; and, Reflect stops them in their tracks. Exeggutor takes over 40% from Blizzard and will usually have to explode unless Gyarados was weakened prior. Body Slam and Hyper Beam 2HKO Jynx, while Jynx can only 3HKO Gyarados. CountersAnything with Thunderbolt has an undisputed advantage against Gyarados. Cloyster is a reliable switch-in if Gyarados doesn't have Thunderbolt. Chansey can switch-in against Hydro Pump and Blizzard, and paralyze him. Starmie is faster and debilitates him just as easily as Chansey does. Reflect Alakazam only fears crit Hydro Pumps, but with only 8 PP and 80% accuracy, this threat is easily mitigated by Recover. Zapdos is faster and OHKOs him.
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Post by Crystal_ on Dec 21, 2011 8:44:14 GMT -8
I wouldn't say Blizzard is "vastly" preferred over Tbolt. Lapras, which should be explicitly in the counters list, is easily the most common switch-in into Gyarados (if we can say there's a common switch-in when talking about an uncommon poke), with the possible exception of Starmie (tbolt also "helping" here).
Starmie does the Reflect set better though.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Dec 21, 2011 9:35:32 GMT -8
lolno, Lapras isn't even that common. The best counters depend on moveset - unparalyzed Starmie with TBolt, Exeggutor against Gyarados without Blizzard, and Gengar against no STAB are among the best counters. Lapras would be the best if it had Recover, but it does not.
I've used Gyarados as a hit-and-run Pokémon. Get in on Earthquake, predict your opponent accurately or use Body Slam, run if your opponent carries Thunderbolt or Thunder Wave. Rinse and repeat. I used to disagree about Hydro Pump, but nowadays, I use it at all times - the coverage isn't that good but the damage is essential. Exeggutor is a very rare switch-in to Gyarados due to the pure threat of Blizzard, and it will probably not stay in to fight unless it knows you're not carrying Blizzard. Thunderbolt is probably a better option, though Blizzard is certainly not without merits.
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Post by Crystal_ on Dec 21, 2011 10:03:42 GMT -8
Eggy usually loses if it's switching into slam even if Gyara doesn't blizzard. Eggy isn't really switching into Gyara unless it's tbolting or something.
Lapras should be on par with Starmie, pretty close to Rhydon+Golem if not on par too. If Gengar is more common than Lapras, it's because of people doing things wrong.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Dec 21, 2011 10:19:39 GMT -8
Are you saying that Rhydon+Golem COUNTERS Gyarados?
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Post by Crystal_ on Dec 21, 2011 10:22:27 GMT -8
Talking about usage.
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Post by GGFan on Dec 21, 2011 10:24:19 GMT -8
lolno, Lapras isn't even that common. The best counters depend on moveset - unparalyzed Starmie with TBolt, Exeggutor against Gyarados without Blizzard, and Gengar against no STAB are among the best counters. Lapras would be the best if it had Recover, but it does not. I've used Gyarados as a hit-and-run Pokémon. Get in on Earthquake, predict your opponent accurately or use Body Slam, run if your opponent carries Thunderbolt or Thunder Wave. Rinse and repeat. I used to disagree about Hydro Pump, but nowadays, I use it at all times - the coverage isn't that good but the damage is essential. Exeggutor is a very rare switch-in to Gyarados due to the pure threat of Blizzard, and it will probably not stay in to fight unless it knows you're not carrying Blizzard. Thunderbolt is probably a better option, though Blizzard is certainly not without merits. It's too subjective to say that Lapras "isn't that common." I saw Lapras being used before I left, and I've used it many times myself. Also, without Thunderbolt Gyarados doesn't do very well against Lapras at all, especially if Lapras runs Reflect. As for Starmie, paralyzed or not, it has a clear advantage over Gyarados. Gyarados can only kill Starmie on its own if it gets incredibly lucky, which reduces Thunderbolt's appeal. Hyper Beam does pretty much the same damage anyway. I'm not saying that Thunderbolt is useless, but it has too much to compete against. The point of Blizzard isn't to hit Exeggutor on the switch. Nobody needs to switch Exeggutor in when other Pokemon do it so much better. It's about covering as many Pokemon as possible and doing as much damage as possible, because that's the only way Gyarados can be worthwhile. That's what makes Hydro Pump the logical choice over Surf, because there's no point in using Gyarados as a sweeper if you aren't maximizing your damage output. You might as well just use Starmie otherwise. I wouldn't say Blizzard is "vastly" preferred over Tbolt. Lapras, which should be explicitly in the counters list, is easily the most common switch-in into Gyarados (if we can say there's a common switch-in when talking about an uncommon poke), with the possible exception of Starmie (tbolt also "helping" here).These analyses are a work in progress. I didn't list Gengar either, even though he's a counter, too. Anyway, who is switching-in Lapras if Gyarados has Thunderbolt? Thunderbolt barely 3HKOs anyway--not as good as Blizzard, which grants Gyarados a favorable match-up. Body Slam doesn't do a lot of damage to Exeggutor, but you still 3HKO Starmie with Body Slam-Body Slam-Hyper Beam. Starmie does the Reflect set better though. Reflect Gyarados is mostly for unpredictability. Starmie is better overall, but Reflect can work, so it deserves mentioning.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Dec 21, 2011 10:40:50 GMT -8
Lapras is used, true, but not as much as Starmie or Gengar. Reflect Lapras is seen less and less nowadays, I think, so that's not a concern. She also hates paralysis from my experience, making it rough to switch in on Body Slams.
If Starmie is paralyzed and Gyarados is completely healthy, Starmie needs to not be paralyzed to win reliably. TBolt to Starmie deals 163-139 (50%-43%). If you DO manage to live past that as Starmie, congratulations, but you'll most probably be severely weakened when Gyarados falls unless you carry both Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave - which albeit isn't unheard of, isn't too common. Switching in a paralyzed Starmie versus Thunderbolt Gyarados is asking for problems.
You don't cover more Pokémon with Blizzard than you do with Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt hits Lapras, Starmie, Slowbro and Articuno, Blizzard hits Zapdos and Exeggutor. While Slowbro and Articuno are rarely seen, Lapras and Starmie are certainly not, and I'd say that they're more common switch ins than Exeggutor (Zapdos is debatable). You lose the ability to come in on Exeggutor and threaten with Blizzard - however, you don't need to actually RUN Blizzard to come in and threaten your opponent. Let him do the math and switch out in fear of your anticipated Blizzard.
edit: Okay, I didn't know/consider that BSlam*2+HBeam killed Starmie. That's actually very good to know.
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Post by GGFan on Dec 21, 2011 10:55:50 GMT -8
Lapras is used, true, but not as much as Starmie or Gengar. Reflect Lapras is seen less and less nowadays, I think, so that's not a concern. She also hates paralysis from my experience, making it rough to switch in on Body Slams. If Starmie is paralyzed and Gyarados is completely healthy, Starmie needs to not be paralyzed to win reliably. TBolt to Starmie deals 163-139 (50%-43%). If you DO manage to live past that as Starmie, congratulations, but you'll most probably be severely weakened when Gyarados falls unless you carry both Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave - which albeit isn't unheard of, isn't too common. Switching in a paralyzed Starmie versus Thunderbolt Gyarados is asking for problems. You don't cover more Pokémon with Blizzard than you do with Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt hits Lapras, Starmie, Slowbro and Articuno, Blizzard hits Zapdos and Exeggutor. While Slowbro and Articuno are rarely seen, Lapras and Starmie are certainly not, and I'd say that they're more common switch ins than Exeggutor (Zapdos is debatable). You lose the ability to come in on Exeggutor and threaten with Blizzard - however, you don't need to actually RUN Blizzard to come in and threaten your opponent. Let him do the math and switch out in fear of your anticipated Blizzard. edit: Okay, I didn't know/consider that BSlam*2+HBeam killed Starmie. That's actually very good to know. ~Lapras is used enough to the point where it can be discussed as the threat that it is. And it's too subjective to say that Reflect Lapras isn't used a lot, because not a lot of people play RBY right now. Besides that, it's a great move. ~Gyarados' Thunderbolt isn't strong enough to 2HKO on average. If you want to deal as much damage as possible to Water-Types, you might as well just use Thunder. Actually, Thunder probably has a bit of merit, since it's a gamble to use Gyarados anyway. ~Paralyzed Starmie can switch-in against Hydro Pump and Blizzard, and then paralyze Gyarados. Not much is accomplished if Gyarados gets a Thunderbolt in, because Starmie will just recover the damage. With luck, the best you can hope for is to secure the lucky 2HKO. ~The likelihood of somebody using three Water-Types on one team is rather low. But how effective is he against them anyway? They're not favorable match-ups because Slowbro has Amnesia, and can just paralyze him and switch-out; Starmie, as has been discussed, has several advantages over him; and Lapras will almost always have Thunderbolt. Of the three you mentioned, Thunderbolt gives Lapras the most trouble, but you insist that it's not common so it doesn't matter anyway. Meanwhile, Gyarados is faster than Exeggutor and survives three Psychics. Honestly, if Exeggutor is reduced to having to explode against Gyarados--who will never be the focal point of a OU team--then it's a job well done.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Dec 21, 2011 11:12:48 GMT -8
I think this boils down a lot to playstyle. As said, I prefer a hit-and-run approach where I aim to attack once and then switch out unless there's a solid KO opportunity or the match-up is favorable, and deal maximum amount of damage (or cause paralysis through Body Slam). Blizzard only helps me doing that against Zapdos. Thunderbolt helps me much more in that regard.
If you aim to maximize your winning matchups, Blizzard might be better. I aim to get a significant amount of damage in against everyone rather than maximize damage against a select few and I believe TBolt helps me more than Blizzard in that regard.
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Post by WaterWizard on Dec 21, 2011 11:45:22 GMT -8
Thunderbolt really doesn't need to be on anyone except Chansey (and those who get STAB), and even Chansey doesn't need it if she has Counter. If a player knows how to preserve his Chansey, he can always go to her when Gyarados or Starmie meets a bad matchup (in this case, another aquatic who has Thunderbolt). In most cases, the net worth for the team is better if you can free up a moveslot on Starmie/Gyarados (Recover, three of twave/Psychic/Blizzard/Surf)(Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Hydro Pump, Reflect/Blizzard). Unstabbed Thunderbolt is rarely useful (from a whole-team perspective) unless it's coming from 308 Chansey. Reflect Lapras? I've seen it once. And he lost!
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Post by Crystal_ on Dec 21, 2011 11:54:35 GMT -8
How the hell did I forget Zapdos? Talking about counters, the best ones are definitely Zapdos, Gengar and Jolteon. The whole point of tbolt over blizzard is that... Gyara doesn't need eggy coverage as much as it needs lapras/starmie/slowbro coverage. And you might even be better off slaming zapdos anyway.
Lapras is obviously not switching into tbolt. Out of Pump/Slam/Tbolt, the latter is the easier to predict that is not happening (assuming Gyara DOES have tbolt). But yea Lapras isn't exactly the "best" switch-in, who knows. There's isn't exactly any "great" switching tbh, it's just that almost everything either matches up "just well" (anything with tbolt here) or "not exactly bad" (eggy, tauros, zam, snorlax). So you will have you come into something like EQ everytime, or your opponent will wear gyara down before it can open holes through these "half walls" like Starmie/Lapras/Gengar/Chansey/Zapdos. And anyway, if you ever feel you are in a bad matchup vs gyara end-game or something, you should at least be able to go for a trade with anything not named Golem/Rhydon.
Reflect waters are all the same (Slowbro withstanding). They are great when... Chansey/Starmie/Lapras/Alakazam/Gengar/Zapdos are all out, but thes may happen so yea.
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Post by cheese on Dec 21, 2011 13:36:37 GMT -8
Thunderbolt really doesn't need to be on anyone except Chansey (and those who get STAB), and even Chansey doesn't need it if she has Counter. Thunderbolt can obviously be extremely useful on Starmie/Lapras(/Gyarados) in certain situations. The only reason I would say it's not necessary is because your opponent will assume you have it until otherwise informed. For example, your opponent is unlikely to switch in Lapras against an unparalysed Starmie due to the fear of Thunderbolt. I guess it's like the opposite of counter, which works if your opponent assumes you don't have it.
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 21, 2011 13:58:54 GMT -8
Gyarados uses 4 of Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Thunderbolt, Surf/Hydro Pump and Blizzard, and the only move that should be on every set if Body Slam. Hyper Beam is also very useful since Gyarados's role is a hybrid sweeper in the first place, and the last three are debatable. Surf and Hydro Pump are Gyarados's strongest Special moves, but have the worst type coverage, Thunderbolt is mainly for opposing Waters, which in OU, tend to have Thunderbolt as well and should probably be avoided, and Blizzard is a more diverse Surf (hits Exeggutor, Zapdos, etc), but not as powerful on neutral Pokemon.
I'd suggest Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Thunderbolt, Surf/Hydro Pump be the standard, but it's very debatable. With the loss of Blizzard, Gyarados just has a bit more trouble with Exeggutor, who usually would want to avoid him anyway. In that case, Gyarados can still spam Body Slam and Hyper Beam, though unfortunately do not 3HKO. The same case for Zapdos, though Zapdos should be avoided entirely.
Also don't forget that Gyarados is only OHKO'd by STAB Thunderbolts; even Gengar's cannot OHKO, though obviously would be best avoided.
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Post by Nitro on Dec 21, 2011 14:10:44 GMT -8
Completely obviously, gyara should use tbolt. Otherwise Lapras is a hard counter and is plenty used.
Like, you can much greater afford to sacrifice hitting exeggutor as hard as possible since once egg gets in it's easy to switch into.
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Post by hipmonlee on Dec 21, 2011 15:17:50 GMT -8
In terms of when gyarados is actually going to be used, its basically going to switch into earthquakes, tauros blizzards and slowbro surfs.
Obviously, I am limiting this to just OU.
So, you really only need to consider what will come into Gyarados and what you want to hit that with. So really, you want to either be surfing (or hydropumping) or bodyslamming. Then have your other two moves to finish off things that get para'd. Once Starmie comes in to a paraslam, then thunderbolting it is going to leave it dead enough regardless of what it does. It also gives you the ability to switch into bro, and Gyarados doesnt have many switches available to it.. Can it survive a Blissey IB and TBolt?
I would just remove the bit about vastly preferred and just say, these are the two options and the advantages of each.
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 21, 2011 15:21:34 GMT -8
Can it survive a Blissey IB and TBolt? Chansey, and why not just calculate it? ;> Gyarados is more likely to survive than not.
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