Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 7, 2012 19:38:41 GMT -8
Type: Water HP 333 (base 65) Attack 228 (base 65) Defence 228 (base 65) Special 198 (base 50) Speed 278 (base 90)
Moveset Hypnosis Surf/Blizzard Earthquake/Blizzard Counter
Firstly, poliwhirl has no competitive use in OU, as it is completely outclassed by poliwrath. The 20 extra base speed is irrelevant because the only difference from wrath is that it outspeeds cloyster and dragonite, both of whom are uncommon with wrap banned, and wrath speed ties with closyter anyway. The lack of a psychic weakness is largely irrelevant as it still gets 2khod by most psychics anyway. It’s not even a better user of counter, and wrath can just lower its defence stats if need be.
However, it has a unique niche in UU. It is tied for fastest sleeper in UU with venomoth (although moth is a better sleeper due to spowder having higher accuracy). It can lead, but is likely to slept by a lead moth, and has more uses hidden outside of the lead position. However, unlike moth, it has uses outside of spreading status. For one, it is arguably the best counter user in UU, because it outspeeds every physical sweeper in the tier except for charizard and raticate, whom it still has decent match ups with anyway. It survives an unboosted hbeam from kingler and a 1 SD’d bslam (non- crit for both). This means it can ko a kingler on the recharge, or it gets to two turns to try and sleep it, and then ko the switch in. Its speed allows it to sleep any physical sweeper after switching into a bslam and then use counter, something wrath can’t do.
Surf is obviously to ohko graveler and 2hko sandslash. Blizzard 2hkos graveler and 3hkos tangela (but if it uses mdrain and recovers hp it won't 3hko, but mdrain is still only a 3hko on whirl), and can 2hko slash with high rolls. Equake can 2hko buzz with high rolls, but is only there to hit it on the switch in, or finish off a weakened parad buzz , as buzz outspeeds it and ohkos with bolt.
Poliwhirl basically functions as a support pokemon in UU. Sleep- countering can do a lot of damage to the opposition if played correctly, and being a fast sleeper who scares out graveler is nice. Whirl supports wrath well because he uses wrath’s support moveset and does his dirty work for him, allowing wrath to be an amnesia sweeper, and even allowing him to drop hypnosis for another option, as with whirl you’re likely to have 2- 3 sleepers on your team.
Other Options Amnesia doesn’t really work on whirl because it doesn’t hit hard enough and is too frail to survive a rest, and is outclassed by wrath and golduck as an amnesia user. Hydro pump only 2hkos the fires in the tier and slash, but slash is 2hkod by surf anyway, and all the fires outspeed whirl. Ice beam is an option if you want to attempt a freeze war, but whirl is outclassed by other pokemon in that role, and can’t really stay in that long against many pokes.
Counters Speed and sleep are all whirl really has going for him, so once he’s parad and/or sleep clause is activated he can’t do much. Once sleep clause is activated most special attackers have nothing to fear from him. Physical attackers have to watch out for counter, but if they can work around that they shouldn’t have too much to worry about, especially if he’s parad as well.
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Post by David the Chansey on Mar 8, 2012 0:55:58 GMT -8
Speed doesn't matter when using counter because it has lower priority. So I don't see why switching in on a physical and then using counter is something Poliwrath can't do, especially since he has 60 more defense. Otherwise, interesting argument. Including a niche pokemon in your team, however, usually means having a more specific game plan in mind, or else the team is generally weaker than a standard one.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Mar 8, 2012 3:11:18 GMT -8
"For one, it is arguably the best counter user in UU, because it outspeeds every physical sweeper in the tier."
Raticate, Charizard. Fearow is seen at times as well.
This guide is confusing me. You argue that he is a good lead because he's the fastest sleeper, but on the other hand, you should save him for slow physical sweepers to come in on a hit, sleep them and then Counter? Is he a lead or not?
"It survives an unboosted hbeam from kingler and a 1 SD’d bslam (non- crit for both)." CH HBeam, sure, but CH BSlam after a SDance actually deals LESS than a regular hit. This is due to how Critical Hits work in RBY. First off, a Critical Hit ignores all stats boosts and losses. This is why it's good that Slowbro has so low speed - he doesn't get a lot of Critical Hits that would ignore his Amnesia boosts when attacking. Secondly, here's the damage formula for you, simplified to work for level 100 Pokémon: ((C*0,84*A*B/D)+2)*M*R/255 C = If you score a critical hit, this value is 2, otherwise 1. C is the only relevant variable in this formula. Most people think that C would be as simple as to just double the damage output, but it works as shown. This means that you don't get the double boost on the (...)+2), and so, you deal roughly 1,97 times the damage you'd otherwise do, rather than 2 times the damage.
Also does Blizzard 2HKO Tangela if it gets a Mega Drain in?
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 8, 2012 8:32:57 GMT -8
Obviously you'd want to use Amnesia on it, otherwise you should just stick to another sleeper like Venomth/Tangela/Poliwrath. But you'd also want to use Hypnosis on it though, otherwise Golduck would do everything better. I'd just go with a Hypnosis/Amnesia/Blizzard/Psychic set, Psychic so that you have more chances to take other amnesia waters down before they wake up. You will still have a very hard time vs Buzz though. Also, Blizzard only does 35%-41% to Tangela.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 8, 2012 19:59:28 GMT -8
He's the best counter user because he outspeeds all physicals except Raticate, which means he can sleep them on the next turn. If they switch out you've disabled a sweeper and then dented or kod the switch in. If he comes in on hbeam he essentially gets two turns to go for the sleep unless he's parad.
When I did the calc on Tangela it said somewhere between mid 50s to mid 60s. So I must have done it wrong.
I don't sew why you'd use him as am amnesia sweeper because he's outclassed in that role. After he's parad he basically becomes an inferior amnesia wrath.
The point of my set is to actually support a wrath or golduck.
I said he can lead, but he's outclassed by moth as a lead, but better than it at other roles. I'd only lead him if you want to use something over moth.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 8, 2012 20:08:40 GMT -8
He's better at this support set than wrath in uu due to outsoeeding many important mons it works on. Wrath is a better amnesia user.
In ou wrath is better at this set because the speed difference is irrelevant and stab submission is more important, and also the psychic weakness doesn't really affect his role with this set.
Sorry for the double post I'm in a rush.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Mar 9, 2012 2:38:05 GMT -8
Those physical sweepers you mention are the following: Kingler Kabutops Pinsir
Kingler is the only one remotely likely to be seen, so it's a very specific counter. I'd rather add Magneton.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 9, 2012 2:57:20 GMT -8
A team is likely to have a physical sweeper, so it's not super specific.
Ton may be a better counter, but he gets completely walled by grab and tang, and he can't sleep. Whirl can actually hurt alot of switch ins if he predicts correctly. Not saying whirl is necessarily better but he's not completely outclassed by ton.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Mar 9, 2012 4:09:25 GMT -8
If you aimed for the "slower than Whirl but faster than Wrath" approach, those three are the only ones that are relevant. Faster sweepers include Raticate, Charizard (Earthquake/Slash), Fearow. Slower include Sandslash/Graveler, neither use normal moves primarily to attack.
Ideally, you're looking at something to counter Kingler and in very few cases Kabutops (I've seen Pinsir used once, Zilch used it against me in our first tournament match in UU - I won that game). Magneton can't kill anything as long as Graveler is around, sure - but if you have something slept, neither will Poliwhirl. Even if not, it requires luck - the chance that Kingler is sleeping after you've used Hypnosis is roughly 50% or so (first turn wakeups). In 50% of the cases you won't get to use Counter, and Kingler stays rampart. Magneton is bulky and can take a hit well, and with Rest+Reflect, you can live forever once Graveler is gone. His uses are far more widespread than Poliwhirl's, as there's a lot of Water types in UU (Golduck, Poliwrath, Kingler, Vaporeon and Dewgong are all seen frequently), as well as the odd Fearow. He has 338 Special as well, so even if his TBolt didn't have STAB, it'd still deal more damage to the common Pokémon. Also have a taste of this: Magneton can survive a +2 Hyper Beam coming from Kingler.
Poliwhirl really doesn't hurt those who switch in on him given that he has 198 Special and 228 Attack. 198 special + STAB on Surf means less damage than Chansey deals with her attacks. Earthquake from 228 Attack is also very poor. Sure Graveler doesn't like either - but who will ever switch in Graveler on Poliwhirl? Charizard doesn't like Surf, but here's the math - Surf from Poliwhirl deals 155-182 damage (43,3-50,9% of his max HP). In almost all cases, that's a 3HKO! That's not impressive. Earthquake is hitting Graveler for less than Surf so I'm not calculating that - the most (only?) relevant calculation is versus Electabuzz, who takes *2. This is actually a 2HKO according to my calculations, (157-184 damage or 50,2%-59,0%) so not all that bad. I will give you that. Hitting Electabuzz and Graveler hard...is still not enough for me to give it a place on my team, especially when it means adding another Water. You say he's a support for Wrath/Golduck. Okay, that's 2 Waters. Do you want Kingler on your team, arguably one of the best Pokémon in UU? That's half of the team with only waters. You'll want a Ground to take Electrics, but Tangela will still demolish your team.
I just can't see Poliwhirl on a team. I'll gladly play you in UU to prove my point.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 9, 2012 6:27:49 GMT -8
If Zard comes in on surf, the only safe thing he can do is EQ, and that's assuming sleep clause has been activated. SD can be surfed and he still doesn't ohko whirl with hbeam after a SD. He also has to be careful with slash because he can get countered.
EQ is a decent switch in for waters like wrath, consdering he has a good physical defence and scares zard out, especially if he came in on whirl's surf. But really, I don't see how zard is a good option against whirl. Even if he beats whirl, it's not worth risking sleep or taking alot of unrecoverable damage for it. Zard can't really safely set up on whirl with SD so it doesn't seem like a logical switch in.
Also, mdrain is still a 3hko on whirl (only just) and whirl outspeeds it so if it comes in on blizzard it needs to sleep whirl or get lucky with an fp from stun spore to beat it, and this is of course assuming whirl can't sleep it in return. Again, even if it does beat whirl, it's going to hurt tangela a lot, which is a decent trade because it can then be easily revenge kod due to being slow. If your team has a lot of waters and graveler, this is a pretty good trade.
Edit- I realised tang will be recovering hp from drains, so blizzard won't be a 3ko. Still, it's not the end of the world.
Raticate also isn't as much of a problem as you make it out to be. The only thing poli has to worry about is switching into sfang, because then cate can 2hko it with hbeam, which is the only way he can 2hko whirl without a crit. He can only damage whirl with normal attacks, all of which whirl can counter for huge damage to cate. It's even worse for cate if whirl if sleep clause hasn't been activated, because whirl has some nasty tricks with counter if he lands the sleep. Whirl beats cate if he comes in on any move except sfang, so that's a pretty good match up.
Whirl probably can't do much to fearow except sleep it, but fearow is completely walled by by grav, as are buzz and magneton, two of whirl's biggest fears.
Look I never said he could beat the switch ins. The difference between him and ton is that he can actually hurt switch ins, meaning they can't switch in too many times.
You seem to assume that I'll be keeping whirl in on many of these pokes. He's a support pokemon, his role is to set up sweepers, by sleeping or weakening switch ins to him. He also has counter tricks which can put huge holes in teams if played correctly.
Your logic also confuses me. You suggest zard and cate as viable physical sweepers, then say if I'm running whirl and wrath, I need a physical sweeper and have to go kingler, meaning I'm too water- heavy, Why can't I juse use something like zard, cate or pinsir instead?
You mention some of these pokes as viable and troublesome for whirl, yet then say they're not good options for my team and I have to go kingler.
And if running kingler plus a another physical is the standard or is highly viable, then that benefits whir because he likes more opposing physical sweepers.
I won't do whirl justive because I'm not a good player at the moment. I lose in OU with very standard teams, but you wouldn't say those teams are unviable because of that.
I'm not saying whirl is one of the biggest threats in uu and teams should prepare for it, he's a niche pokemon that has the ability to fulfill 3 or 4 different roles, and can realistically pull off at least 2 of those per match.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 9, 2012 6:45:15 GMT -8
Sorry I accidently double posted somehow.
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 10, 2012 2:12:23 GMT -8
Poliwhirl is a set-up bait for amnesiers and even Kingler, which is not a good thing in UU. I don't know what you are trying to prove, but there is pertty much no good matchup por Poliwhril other than Graveler.
The only viable set is Amnesia+Hypnosis because it's the only set not outclassed by anything. Also, I'm confused, what's Counter supposed to counter in UU?
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 10, 2012 7:32:46 GMT -8
Switching in on a physical attack and sleep countering is pretty nice.
If you're going to measure a poke by match ups, then moth would never be seen because outside of status he can't damage much. Also, zapdos would be the most used poke in the game.
Wrath is also set up bait for kingler if he can't sleep it so I don't see your point. At least whirl has two chances to sleep him before he gets kod, and he has to commit to hbeam for that. Will people really want to risk getting their kingler slept?
Running an amnesia would only make sense if you also run golduck and and wrath, as they completely outclass whirl in that role, especially once he's parad. He's also too frail to rest.
Sleep countering and outspeeding important pokes for sleep is his niche, not being an amnesia sweeper. He can also hurt switch a little and gets a free move if he comes in on graveler.
The ability to come in on physicals and threaten with sleep or counter is pretty nice.
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 10, 2012 10:52:07 GMT -8
You fail to see how Amnesia-less Poliwhirl is hard walled by Golduck/Poliwrath and how relavant this is.
You are overrating the threat of sleep. It's only a threat... until you sleep something. Sleep countering doesn't exist forever. Just once. And anyway sleep has never been a threat in RBY, since common sleepers are pretty much effectively neutralized by 3/4 of the pokes of any stardard team. RBY sleep is "unstoppable" but not exactly a "threat" in the sense that you can almost always control what's taking the sleep before even starting to play. And UU Poliwhril is no exception. So when you say "Sleep countering and outspeeding important pokes for sleep is his niche", if this is a good niche then Butterfree will be good too.
I'm not measuring matchups. It was you who started pointing out Poliwhirl vs Tangela/Raticate/Charizard etc, trying to prove that some are good matchups, while they aren't as good as you are saying. And venomoth has much better matchups than amnesia-less Poliwhril due to being able to para alone.
"Running an amnesia would only make sense if you also run golduck and and wrath, as they completely outclass whirl in that role, especially once he's parad. He's also too frail to rest." So you say Amnesia is bad on Poliwhril because it will be outclassed by Golduck/Poliwrath, and you want to use Counter over it? This is like okay, I'm not going to use tbolt Electabuzz in OU because it's outclassed by Jolteon, i'll use Counter/whatever instead. You would only be proving that Golduck/Poliwrath are completely superior to Poliwhril if that sentence was true, by saying he has to drop Amnesia for a gimmick/surprise move (Counter, which is very situational and doesn't help against what is hard-walling him) not to be outclassed. Fast Hypnosis/typing PLUS Amnesia is the only reason to ever consider Poliwhril in UU.
"He can also hurt switch a little and gets a free move if he comes in on graveler.": Poliwhril is walled to death by amnesiers/vap; on the other hand, okay, you are getting free switches from Graveler. But guess what, Graveler kills you in 3 turns and how many hits do you need to take these waters down? Something like 8, and if they Rest, it's impossible, and chances are, they rest. Not to mention Mag/Buzz can still switch-in pretty comfortably, and Tangela/Venomoth aren't bad matchups either.
So he isn't supporting anything, he is just sleeping something and then doing anything.
You are just theorymoning. You said you are new to RBY, and I'm pretty sure you have almost never played UU. It's okay, everybody is new, but you should play some more rby before, to know what you are saying when making these kind of claims.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 10, 2012 16:19:41 GMT -8
Buzz takes around 50% from switching in on EQ.
I never said whirl was amazing or anything like that. Again, you're assuming I'd keep him in on waters. By this logic electrics would suck because I could just say they're walled by graveler.
Whirl's speed with amnesia is only good if he's got to +6 near full health, but it's unlikely a good player will let that happen. He'll either get parad or forced to rest, which is just asking to get creamed by physical hits.
Fast and frail amnesia users are the worst type of amnesia user because of the higherch rate and the frailty when resting. Speed doesn't count for much as you're likely to get statused.
I don't see how counterwhirl doesn't have a good match up with raticate. He can counter pretty much every move rat can damage him with.
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 11, 2012 3:56:42 GMT -8
It doesn't matter if you keep him on waters or not. Whenever you send Poliwhirl in they send their water back and neutralize you to no end. It's just helplessness.
Again, your 3rd and 4th paragraph is just showing that Poliwhirl is completely inferior. Being outclassed at using the only move that could make a difference can only mean that. And just because you use Amnesia it doesn't mean you have to use Rest. (think of Poliwrath, who as a rest-amnesier is outclassed by Golduck and only worth using if you want 2 rest-amnesiers).
Ultimately Raticate doesn't mean anything. Nobody will keep Raticate into a worthless Poliwhril like this one. UNLESS they expect the good Poliwhril set. But then that's just surprise-based (a very situational surprise for that matter). And something that works due to surprise, by definition, doesn't work in the long run.
That's how Poliwhril could WORK: You come into something you can force out (Graveler) and Amnesia up as they send a water. You sleep it and use amnesia again as they switch out, and then attack with +4 Psychic/Blizzard until you die.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 12, 2012 17:13:07 GMT -8
Well niche/gimmick pokemon generally rely on surprise, otherwise they would be standards.
Your restless amensia set could easily be done better by poliwrath, so that's pointless. If a water is coming in, then whirl will take one soft hit, or the water will amnesia, so the speed drop won't make too much difference, but the bulk and power boost will.
I don't understand how being neutralised by waters makes whirl so bad, considering waters in general are neutralised by other waters. You make it sound like he's the only pokemon who has counters.
It's true that outside of SE damage (who whirl can do to a lot of its counters) and counter, whirl can't do much damage, but neither can venomoth. Whirl can at least damage switch ins harder than moth.
Mons like moth and magneton are simpler to use and are more one dimensional, but I don't think that rules out whirl as useful. When ton comes in, graveler is a completely safe switch in, unless they start switching as well. Moth does little harm to anything that's already statused, so the same logic can be applied to them. At least whirl is a bit harder to switch in on safely.
Whirl is also helpful late game when sweepers like kingler want to come out and finish off paralysed pokes. He has to be careful with bslam and hyper beam for fear of being sleep countered, or just simply slept.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 12, 2012 23:52:24 GMT -8
The only reason to use Poliwhirl is for fast Hypnosis.
Hypnosis, Surf/IB/Psychic, Amnesia, Counter/Rest.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 13, 2012 0:31:58 GMT -8
And my set is designed the most lethal move than can be paired with hypnosis.
I still don't see how amnesia whirl isn't completely outclassed by wrath. The extra speed for the sleep in this case doesn't really affect much, because nothing whirl outspeeds hurts wrath much in one hit except maybe Tangela, who wrath outspeeds, meaning wrath can still get a sleep in and then has better stats to abuse amnesia. Buzz outspeeds both of them and ohkos whirl with bolt, and 2hkos wrath.
At least with my set he's actually better than wrath at it, and paired with wrath has a bit more versatility.
I'm also thinking if whirl counters wrath. Faster sleep and hitting him for SE with psychic may be nice.
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 13, 2012 6:07:45 GMT -8
You are contradicting yourself. You are saying Poliwhril isn't completely outclassed by anything, while Amnesia Poliwhirl is. Amnesia is the only move that makes Poliwhirl any useful, it's like saying, okay, Venomoth is better than Butterfree, SPowder Venomoth is better than SPowder Butterfree, I'll use Sleep Powderless Butterfree then. See how stupid this is?
Amnesialess Poliwhril can be kinda useful once in a while (Speed+water+sleep alone is not utterly outclassed albeit pretty much is), but not running amnesia is handicapping you for no reason, like not running Hypnosis for example. Like Slamless Tauros, Recoverless Alakazam, etc.
Venomoth does hit switches harder if we are into that though. Switches meaning the pokes that will be switching into you.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 13, 2012 6:23:52 GMT -8
Butterfree is an inferior moth and has no set it can run better than moth. Free is only run in NU, or if you wanted two moths in UU. In UU whirl runs my set better than wrath, and wrath is the better amnesia sweeper. To me the only time it'd make sense to run an amnesia set on whirl is if you're already running duck and wrath, and want three amnesias.
Amnesia would be what you run on whirl if there were no other amnesias in the tier. This set allows you to do a lot of things wrath normally does, like sleep and scare grab with surf, and frees up moveslots for wrath. For example, wrath may not need to run hyp and surf with this poli set.
Moth has better offensive stats, but doesn't hit likely switch ins for SE damage. Whirl can EQ buzz for around 50, and blizzard tangela for around 30, which isn't bad considering he gets another blizzard before Tangela can do anything.
Sure he can't damage waters but it's not like he's the only one with counters. Most other waters can't hurt other waters without setting up anyway. At least he can scare kingler without having to set up due to sleep and counter.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Mar 13, 2012 6:50:23 GMT -8
You don't understand, Dre. It's about maximizing potential. Poliwhirl has a lower potential than Poliwrath when it comes to using Amnesia, yes - that doesn't mean that it's not the best thing that you can put on him. He is bad regardless of moveset. Having Earthquake over Amnesia doesn't change that.
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 13, 2012 6:50:47 GMT -8
Hope it's enough with what I'm posting now as I am really tired about this discussion.
Amnesia-less Poliwrath is better than Amnesia-less Poliwhirl. Faster sleep is inconsequential for the most part. Poliwhirl will probably make a better sleeper, but a much worse pokemon overall. Exeggutor is better than Venusaur, Parasect/Tangela are better than Butterfree.
And now let's assume Amnesia-less Poliwhril was better than Amnesia-less Poliwrath, so what? It's a pointless set; Rapidash does a Fblast/Fthrower/Toxic/Tail Whip set better than Tauros for example. So what? The later is more clearly a pointless/inferior set but BOTH ARE pointless/inferior anyway.
Electabuzz doesn't swicth into you (it probably will when you are not EQing, but doesn't need to). Neither does Tangela. Whatever swicthes into Venomoth is taking a Stun/neutral Psychic/Psywave. Plus, Eq/Surf/ice/counter/sleep, thats 5 moves. And Poliwrath does a "mixed attacking" set much better as aforementioned anyway.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Mar 13, 2012 17:42:03 GMT -8
As I said, I would use amnesia on whirl too if there were no other amensia users. But if he's outclassed in that role, it makes more sense that he uses a niche role which he's better at than other pokemon.
I'm not saying amensialess whirl is better than amensialess wrath. Amnesialess wrath is better than whirl in OU, using submission instead one of the other damaging moves. But in UU, where whirl can sleep-counter, he's better at a supporting role, because it means you can run wrath or duck as amensia users. Running this set on wrath is a waste of his potential with amnesia.
Also you're confusing categories. Venomoth is a better statuser than dodrio, but dodrio is the better pokemon. But if for some reason you need another statuser and not another physical sweeper, then moth is the better option.
If you already have one or two amnesia users, a supporting pokemon is likely the better option, as it compliments the amensias. For example running this alongside wrath frees up some moveslots for him. Hypnosis and counter are both good moves on wrath, but this instead gives them to whirl, who uses them better, and allows wrath to run different moves.
Individually, amensia whirl may be better than counter whirl, but in the context where you already have amnesias (better ones mind you) it seems more logical to me to run a supporting set, one he can actually do better than wrath.
Now that I think about it though, amnesia whirl with psychic might be a nice wrath counter.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 13, 2012 17:53:36 GMT -8
See my moveset above. You have to use Amnesia. The "niche" you're referring to is not enough to earn a spot on the team. Hypnosis AND Speed AND Counter AND Amnesia is barely worth it. Without Amnesia you're just crippling yourself.
Beedrill has a niche too. He can come in and use Swords Dance and Agility and then Twin Needles his enemies to death. No one else can do it quite like that! But does that mean it's worth having on the team? Nope. Uniqueness =/= Usefulness.
I am glad you did the write-up, because Poliwhirl is indeed unique and a case can be made for his use with the moveset I posted in the previous comment. Being (tied for) the faster sweeper in a metagame automatically means you will have some sort of value, however slight.
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 14, 2012 6:05:59 GMT -8
Dre, everything you are saying has already been counterargued so I won't bother saying the same stuff again.
On the other hand, I can't believe I finally agree with WW on something realting RBY. So thanks on this Dre!
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