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Flareon
May 14, 2012 7:39:15 GMT -8
Post by GGFan on May 14, 2012 7:39:15 GMT -8
Stats HP: 333 Attack: 358 Defense: 218 Speed: 228 Special: 318
Overview
In a metagame replete with Pokemon who lack the necessary STAB to complement their high Attack, Flareon stands out as it not only has an excellent Special, but an incredibly powerful attack to go with it. To be succinct, Fire Blast 2HKOs almost everything that doesn't resist it. So, where did things go wrong for Flareon? For one, Fire is a horrible defensive typing, and Flareon's low HP renders him vulnerable on both ends of the defensive spectrum. And then there's issue of Flareon being no different from most of his Fire-type brethren: not having a diverse enough movepool. But his biggest problem of all is that, like his peers, his prodigious Attack is practically wasted because none of his physical attacks are backed by STAB--in fact, he can't even 2HKO Chansey on his own. Still, he does pack quite the punch and is good at paralyzing incoming switch-ins, as many Pokemon can come in against him.
OU strategy
Physical sweeper ~Fire Blast ~Body Slam ~Hyper Beam ~Quick Attack/Sand-Attack
Flareon's biggest appeal is his Fire Blast, which will kill everything that doesn't resist it in two hits except for Snorlax, Clefable, Hypno, Chansey, Alakazam, and Zapdos--quite the list. It's also useful for scoring the occasional burn on GolDon, and both will lose half their half if you nail a CH. Body Slam and Hyper Beam are his best options for hitting foes who either resist Fire Blast or have high Special. In most OU games, Flareon will contribute by using Body Slam on incoming Water-types and Chansey. He does, however, have enough power to finish off some weakened Pokemon. For instance, he does have a slight chance of killing off a 50% Starmie with Hyper Beam. Flareon isn't weak by any means, but his lack of STAB reduces his role as a sweeper significantly.
You should always use the first three moves. Quick Attack is good if something is almost dead but faster, while Sand-Attack can facilitate a safe switch-in or possibly prolong Flareon's life span.
Other options
Reflect bolsters his defense, but is highly situational. Mimic if you want to try and get something useful. Quick Attack and Sand-Attack are his best options for the fourth move, though.
Favorable match-ups
Flareon excels against paralyzed Pokemon who have mediocre to low special stats. Also, while slow, he is still fast enough to outspeed Exeggutor.
Counters
Flareon is frail and can easily be defeated by just about everything. Many Pokemon can learn Earthquake and/or Surf, making it easy to dispose of him. Rock-types resist all of his attacks; and, in the lower tiers, Kabutops and Omastar won't be affected by a burn, as they have Surf. Pokemon such as Hypno and Alakazam can handle his attacks and paralyze him, rendering him helpless to further assaults. At least Flareon is interesting in RBY, though; things only go downhill for him from here.
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StS
Member
Posts: 29
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Flareon
May 14, 2012 8:25:44 GMT -8
Post by StS on May 14, 2012 8:25:44 GMT -8
Flareon's biggest appeal is his Fire Blast, which will kill everything that doesn't resist it in two hits except for Snorlax, Clefable, Hypno, Alakazam, and Zapdos--quite the list.
Are you saying that Flareon's Fire Blast 2HKOs Chansey? I find that hard to believe, so you might want to review that list to see if you didn't miss anything else? Unless of course I'm wrong, in which case I apologise.
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Flareon
May 14, 2012 8:46:06 GMT -8
Post by Dre on May 14, 2012 8:46:06 GMT -8
If flareon can't 2hko chansey with bslam hbeam then that means machamp can't do that either, odd....
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Flareon
May 14, 2012 8:55:47 GMT -8
Post by Isa on May 14, 2012 8:55:47 GMT -8
Machamp has Submission. =p
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Flareon
May 14, 2012 9:48:13 GMT -8
Post by GGFan on May 14, 2012 9:48:13 GMT -8
Added Chansey to the list. I wrote that from what I know off the top of my head; if anyone knows what else Flareon can't 2HKO, I'll revise the wording.
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Flareon
May 14, 2012 10:14:12 GMT -8
Post by cheese on May 14, 2012 10:14:12 GMT -8
You know things are desperate when you're considering a non-STAB quick attack (not that it wouldn't have uses). I guess Focus Energy is the usual 4th move in Stadium?
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Flareon
May 14, 2012 17:43:36 GMT -8
Post by David the Chansey on May 14, 2012 17:43:36 GMT -8
Fire Blast also can't 2HKO: Gengar, Dewgong, Jolteon, Magneton. It is also not guarenteed to land a 2HKO on: Haunter, Kadabra, Wigglytuff, Nidoqueen, Muk, Nidoking, Raichu, Drowzee, Weezing, Electabuzz, Pidgeot, Golbat, Machamp, Mr. Mime, Tauros, Lickitung, Electrode. And these are only pokemon with neutral resistance.
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Flareon
May 14, 2012 18:07:08 GMT -8
Post by David the Chansey on May 14, 2012 18:07:08 GMT -8
And if you use Azure Height's calculator instead of NBS's, then include Porygon. But I'm guessing NBS uses the same formula in game as it does for its calculator anyway.
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Flareon
Jan 16, 2013 17:06:47 GMT -8
Post by LucasBM on Jan 16, 2013 17:06:47 GMT -8
Any notes on Fire Spin?
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Flareon
Mar 29, 2013 19:59:12 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 29, 2013 19:59:12 GMT -8
Not really fast enough (and has no way of boosting unlike Dragonite/Moltres/Rapidash). Also, Fire Spin gives free thaws, which is a pain.
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Flareon
Apr 25, 2013 18:31:50 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Apr 25, 2013 18:31:50 GMT -8
I know this is late, but fire spin is good and definitely should be used considering flareon's barren movepool.
You don't need speed to use wrapping moves, I don't understand why so many people seem to think that. Using speed to try and sweep with wrapping moves is dumb unless it's end-game. You use fire spin on flareon's counters to to get a free switch-in on whatever they switch int to flareon.
I also don't understand why people think thawing is such a bad thing. Being able to lure frozen pokemon is actually really good, just like how haze being able to lure statused pokemon is good if done correctly.
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Flareon
Apr 25, 2013 22:13:03 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by Isa on Apr 25, 2013 22:13:03 GMT -8
"Perfect predictions" eh?
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Flareon
Apr 25, 2013 23:10:55 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 25, 2013 23:10:55 GMT -8
I know this is late, but fire spin is good and definitely should be used considering flareon's barren movepool. You don't need speed to use wrapping moves, I don't understand why so many people seem to think that. Using speed to try and sweep with wrapping moves is dumb unless it's end-game. You use fire spin on flareon's counters to to get a free switch-in on whatever they switch int to flareon. I also don't understand why people think thawing is such a bad thing. Being able to lure frozen pokemon is actually really good, just like how haze being able to lure statused pokemon is good if done correctly. If you have the perfect prediction required to do this, then you have perfect enough prediction to just double-switch.
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 7:28:22 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by Dre on Apr 27, 2013 7:28:22 GMT -8
"Perfect predictions" eh? I never said flareon was an amazing pokemon, but that would be the best way to use it. At high level play where everyone has extensive knowledge of the meta you're not going to break through your opponent by just doing routine moves unless you get incredibly lucky. You need to gamble on offensive moves and use concepts such as luring and pressuring. I don't know, I just don't want to be that player who EQs with rhydon on the 4th turn of the game instead of body slamming, or the guy whose alakazam actually tries to psychic gengar on the first turn thinking it'll actually stay in. I feel like picking the generic option is something anyone can do and wins become about luck or an error that I didn't really force.
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 16:19:41 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 27, 2013 16:19:41 GMT -8
At high level play where everyone has extensive knowledge of the meta you're not going to break through your opponent by just doing routine moves unless you get incredibly lucky. You need to gamble on offensive moves and use concepts such as luring and pressuring. Says the guy who thinks that "luring Rhydon for Articuno" means "switching Articuno into Rhydon". Thing is, the generic option has to be used to some degree. Otherwise, people will counter-predict your predictions. IE, I usually throw Psychic with lead Starmie vs. Gengar even though I know it'll probably switch out. I do that because if it was too obvious that I'd Blizzard, then some joker could just keep Gengar in and Tbolt me. The main exception is with people who I've observed to ALWAYS switch in Egg. There is no exact Nash equilibrium in Pokemon. The obvious things are expected because they're good choices. I mean, suppose I've got para-Chansey in vs. your Rhydon. You could Body Slam, predicting I'll switch to Egg, but if I stay in and Ice Beam you instead, you just lost half your Rhydon's health for no gain. If your strategy in that situation is "always Body Slam", and I know it, then mine will be "always Ice Beam" and I'll beat you every time, just like I would if yours was "always EQ" and mine was "always switch to Egg".
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 16:34:55 GMT -8
Post by jorgen on Apr 27, 2013 16:34:55 GMT -8
Alakazam leads are really passive and if you hope to sleep something or freeze a chansey you probably shouldn't be throwing out twaves. If you do anything BUT Psychic in this situation, your plan is to get para early and screw sleep (OR, alternatively, you are looking to inflict Sleep with something that doesn't typically do so!).
But this has little relevance to Flareon itself, which is mostly just an unorthodox mon for punishing switches to the ubiquitous Exeggutor. It's got some unique advantages, but really, you should probably just be using Lapras if you want a mixed attacker that can capitalize off of Egg.
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 16:40:11 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 27, 2013 16:40:11 GMT -8
Alakazam leads are really passive and if you hope to sleep something or freeze a chansey you probably shouldn't be throwing out twaves. If you do anything BUT Psychic in this situation, your plan is to get para early and screw sleep (OR, alternatively, you are looking to inflict Sleep with something that doesn't typically do so!). But this has little relevance to Flareon itself, which is mostly just an unorthodox mon for punishing switches to the ubiquitous Exeggutor. It's got some unique advantages, but really, you should probably just be using Lapras if you want a mixed attacker that can capitalize off of Egg. Or Zapdos, lol.
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 16:41:23 GMT -8
Post by cheese on Apr 27, 2013 16:41:23 GMT -8
It's amazingly how many people leave Gengar in against Zam.
For Starmie lead vs Gengar, wouldn't you just go for Chansey if you were going to switch? Eggy is risky because Starmie might Blizzard (as you noted) and even if it Psychics it gets a free Blizzard anyway due to its speed. Add in the CH/Special Fall chance and Eggy seems a non-nonsensical switch in. It's not as if Starmie is an amazing pokemon to sleep anyway.
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 16:51:42 GMT -8
Post by jorgen on Apr 27, 2013 16:51:42 GMT -8
Yeah, Egg into Starmie is an iffy play, but I'd probably toss out a Sleep Powder if it was Starmie v. Egg without having to switch in. Gotta sleep something, and snoozer Starmie makes life easier for Tauros and can't wake up all that easy against Chasney.
As for Zapdos, you could use that, but it gets hardwalled by Goldon whereas Flareon at least has the burn threat. Lapras can smash whatever it wants, though.
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 17:20:57 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 27, 2013 17:20:57 GMT -8
For Starmie lead vs Gengar, wouldn't you just go for Chansey if you were going to switch? Eggy is risky because Starmie might Blizzard (as you noted) and even if it Psychics it gets a free Blizzard anyway due to its speed. Add in the CH/Special Fall chance and Eggy seems a non-nonsensical switch in. It's not as if Starmie is an amazing pokemon to sleep anyway. Yeah, I wouldn't go to Egg, but I see plenty of people doing it. (Prediction aside, Egg risks 2HKO from crit Psychic + crit Blizzard. Unlikely, but it does happen, and I find Egg a tad too important to just throw down the drain like that.)
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 17:45:31 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Apr 27, 2013 17:45:31 GMT -8
Alakazam leads are really passive and if you hope to sleep something or freeze a chansey you probably shouldn't be throwing out twaves. If you do anything BUT Psychic in this situation, your plan is to get para early and screw sleep (OR, alternatively, you are looking to inflict Sleep with something that doesn't typically do so!). But this has little relevance to Flareon itself, which is mostly just an unorthodox mon for punishing switches to the ubiquitous Exeggutor. It's got some unique advantages, but really, you should probably just be using Lapras if you want a mixed attacker that can capitalize off of Egg. Well my zam is there to take sleep and try to paralyse and troll as much as it can beforehand. In the wrap meta paralysis is much worse for zam than sleep. That's why I'll twave against gengar and won't really care if it stays in to sleep zam. Paralysing gengar is really good anyway. The only common leads I'll switch zam out against are other zam and starmie, because of paralysis. I think there's a difference between a pokemon's generic role and what role they actually have at high level-play. For example people think rhydon's role is just to cockblock zapdos and spam EQ, when in reality at high level play rhydon is realy just wearing down eggy with body slams and rock slide, and then maybe can start spamming EQs later if starmie is gone. People think of flareon as an eggy counter with stab fireblast, but in reality at high level play it'll be body slamming to try paralyse starmie switch ins, or using its fire STAB to lure frozen pokemon. Fire spin works really in tandem with bsla paralysis. Flareon is a lot more viable in the wrap meta because of the free switches, but then again a lot more pokemon are viable because of that. A lot of pokemon would probably move up to BL in wrap, and some BLs like dodrio are probably lower OU.
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 22:22:52 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 27, 2013 22:22:52 GMT -8
Oh, I should say re: leads; when I use Gar as a lead, I usually back it up with Sing Chansey specifically to maintain game control against a Mie/Zam lead.
Dre do you even game theory
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Flareon
Apr 27, 2013 23:27:18 GMT -8
Post by Isa on Apr 27, 2013 23:27:18 GMT -8
Dre - what a Pokémon ends up doing in many games is not the same thing as its role.
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Dre
Member
Posts: 397
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Flareon
Apr 28, 2013 1:26:46 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Apr 28, 2013 1:26:46 GMT -8
Dre - what a Pokémon ends up doing in many games is not the same thing as its role. I think at high level play it is though. A high level player doesn't use flareon because he thinks that he'll actually get to be fire blasting eggies. He uses flareon because the eggy match up gives him a chance to paralyse starmie. It could also be because flareon has the strongest body slam out all the wrappers that consistently lure starmie and have a chance of paralysing it, and because he wants to lure frozen pokemon to capitalise on. There could be other reasons too, but you get my point. A low level player probably thinks of starmie purely as a special sweeper and gets disappointed whenever it gets cock-blocked by chansey. A high level player may use starmie to lure chansey so it can capitalise on snorlax. That player will probably consider luring chansey as part of his starmie's role. I think the higher the level of play, the more things like that become part of a pokemon's role.
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