Jolteon rising into OU?

[Zilch]

It's pretty cool seeing Jolteon OHKO a full health Exeggutor with a barrage of critical Pin Missiles. I've done it a few times, and the resulting "WTF???" from my opponent is even more satisfying than the OHKO!

[Nerd]

Jolteon is a good pokemon and is a decent choice for a team, but Zapdos is usually better. I wouldn't say he's OU, but the distinction isn't significant anyways.

As a side note, Zapdos has a better chance of OHKOing exeggutor than Jolteon does.

[Underboss]

Well, on the question of whether Jolteon is OU, what are the objective criteria that are used to determine what tier a pokemon is placed in?

In fact, I'm going to ask a more detailed question in the Pokemon Tiers thread. But IMO the OU tier is in large part based on taking the best of each niche. When a pokemon gets completely outclassed by a better pokemon who can do a better job of the same role, then that pokemon gets taken down a tier unless it can find another niche.

So I think the question is whether Jolteon gets outclassed by Zapdos as a late game electric mixed sweeper. Or is it another case of Golem and Rhydon, who share the same niche as bulky Rocks but Rhydon does better as a physical sweeper and Golem does better with Explosion. So the question is what Jolteon can do better than Zapdos. Cause we know they can both rape Water types.

Jolteon with Focus Energy can beat Alakazam with Reflect, Chansey, and Exeggutor easier than Zapdos. Jolteon with DK could even beat a weaken Golem. But without FE, I think Zapdos outclasses Jolteon is most areas.

[GGFan]

I'm not sure the door should be closed so quickly on Jolteon. Firstly, it's important to consider the fact that Jolteon is probably the best revenge killer in the game. Also, it's a lot harder to switch into Jolteon than say, Alakazam, who is OU and is resisted by a number of Pokemon. There are really only a select few who can do this with ease.

If Persian is going to be classified as OU, then I think some additional testing needs to be done with Jolteon. While it's true that Jolteon does rely on its crit rate, consider the following statistics: without a crit, Pin Missile still averages nearly 300 damage against Exeggutor if it hits 5 times; and Chansey takes almost 30% from Double Kick, meaning it absolutely needs to be healthy or have Counter to stand a realistic chance.

[Underboss]

So I just realized that since Uber status is based on power in OU, not Uber and since BL status is based on power in UU, not BL, shouldn't it also follow that OU status is based on power in BL, not OU.

So shouldn't we be finding out whether Jolteon is centralizing the BL metagame? Cause, otherwise we could just consider Jolteon a useful pokemon in OU from time to time, but the same could be said for Kingler. Kingler is UU because he doesn't have alot of power there, but he actually does great in OU. So I think moving Jolteon out of BL should be more about balancing BL then about whether Jolteon does well in OU.

[t3h Icy]

I think this demonstrates what an unparalyzed Jolteon is capable of.

Obviously luck was involved, but nothing could hit Jolteon since the 358 Speed is faster than virtually everything. With the appropriate setup, Jolteon can sweep teams.

I'm still not sure if Jolteon is OU material quite yet though.

[Underboss]

Jolteon is definitely one of the best of BL

[Zilch]

Body Slam Jolteon is better than Double Kick Jolteon in BL, IMO. There aren't exactly any rock types to kick (and I doubt you'll be kicking Cloyster) along with better damage and that chance at paralysis on the switch-in makes it pretty darn awesome.

[Crystal_]

Yeah, bs is mostly for nidos (and other joltis) as everything else take a Tbolt. Mimic is also good for that reason. Mimicing a Blizzard/EQ for a weakened nido is cool.

[WaterWizard]

The scenario Icy linked is of course very atypical.

I say we go ahead and move Jolteon and Articuno to OU since they both seem to be used often and they can both clearly hold there own with the big boys. This will also remove the temptation to create the outrageous ban tier of a ban tier that someone mentioned.

Articuno, Jynx, Jolteon, Persian, and Slowbro are all potent enough and seen enough to be called OU. Furthermore, they are all overwhelmingly too strong for UU.

These five monsters comprise the bottom of the OU, along with Rhydon.

Zilch, I request that you go ahead and move these (two) unless there are convincing arguments to the contrary.

[Crystal_]

I suggest waiting until the next OU tornament era where the OU usage will really be observed. People who think Jolti and/or Articuno are usable are more likely to use them in the tourn or in matches of that period.
It could also be important what the usage in SPL is as we are not the only RBYErs in the world.

[Underboss]

If you move Jolteon and Articuno to OU, then you can't use them in the BL metagame since they would be banned. So you would be changing the BL metagame.

[Crystal_]

"changing the BL metagame" lol, that's obviously true. This is what happens when you make a ban tier competitive.

[Underboss]

Crystal, it would be the same thing as making Kingler OU. Suppose alot of people started using Kingler in OU which is possible because he can actually hold his own pretty decently in OU. Would it be right of us to then make Kingler OU and thus deny UU players of being able to use him in UU play?

[Crystal_]

Yeah, but this is not likely to happen.

[Underboss]

Well, another example is that Vaporeon is actually pretty good in BL/Tier 2 but he doesn't over-centralize in UU/Tier 3, which is why we keep him in UU. Anyway, maybe the BL metagame will be better off if Jolteon and Articuno are moved to BL Ubers and/or OU. Only way to know is to test it. Also, I'm leaving on a 5 week trip tomorrow, so that should give the rest of you guys plenty of time to sort out the UU and NU tiers to make them better metagames. And I'm confident the centralizing leftovers from UU will be enough to be it's own metagame that will have to be recognized as BL or Medium Used even. Either that or UU will become BL.

[WaterWizard]

see, there's nothing wrong with using a pokemon from a lower tier in an upper tier every now and then. it can still stay in that tier. my argument is that arty/jolt don't belong in their current tier.

furthermore, we're trying to shrink BL down to a more Ban'esque size.

[Underboss]

BL aint gonna get smaller than 10 without dramatically changing UU or filling OU with pokemon we know to not be OU. And 10 isn't exactly what I would call "Ban'esque" size. 10 is still enough for a good metagame and that should be recognized and legitimized, if not now, then eventually.

[posthuman]

UU needs to be changed. Jolteon and Articuno should be moved up for now and others in BL should be moved down.

We need to do a lot of testing to figure out our current tiers. We CANNOT create new ones (besides the NU Ban Tier, this is comprised of like 2 Pokémon) until we truly fix UU.

[WaterWizard]

I agree with posthuman. start using 1 BL per UU team in casual battles and see who centralizes.

[Underboss]

Also keep in mind the UberBL tier I was proposing would also have a very few pokemon in it. Expect it just happened to might contain pokemon people have more emotional attachment to so they may not like their particular poke being denied OU status in favor of UberBL.

[Crystal_]

The 1BL + UU vs UU is a good idea. The main problem is thta the word centralize is very relative for each people. I imagine here 870 polls for each BL =P

[Underboss]

There is definitely alot of gray zone, but in the end, these things will work themselves out.