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Post by t3h Icy on Jun 3, 2010 0:09:08 GMT -8
Jolteon has always been considered the top BL (unless you count Persian as a BL), but I think the way things work now, Jolteon is much more viable with the top tiers.
The main problems previously were: -Gets walled out by Grounds (particularly Golem/Rhydon) -Has trouble with Special stallers like Alakazam and Chansey -Gets taken out easily
But, Rhydon and Golem are much less frequent while Snorlax seems more common, and if they come out, almost everyone has an Exeggutor to switch into them.
Against Alakazam and Chansey, players are more abusive with Critical Hits and Full Paralysis now, and it would be a 2 or 3 Double Kicks with a little luck to take down Chansey. Pin Missile is inconsistent, but the key is getting Criticals to pierce through Alakazam's Reflect. Also, switching is used way more now, and players often have a staller to switch into Alakazam and Chansey if Jolteon can't do it alone.
Jolteon is still fragile, but with more paralysis support and less Grounds, Jolteon is still fine, but yes, Jolteon does have some problems with Physicals.
Jolteon's main strength is 358 Speed, and when you need to switch out against Jolteon but don't have many nice options, you'll take at least two hits before attacking back, and those hurt. Electric is also only resisted by Grass (but Exeggutor gets Pin Missiled), Ground, but you work around those, and pure Electric like....Jolteon. It's also a pain for Alakazam to have to be extra careful since something is actually faster. Jolteon is also more paralysis support in general with Thunder Wave, which is always nice.
The key thing is that I think Jolteon make a really nice lead, and I haven't been comfortable with something lately since everyone is on edge for Gengar leads with their Psychics now. Jolteon can hit all the Psychics and Gengar with Pin Missile and/or Thunder Wave, and destroys Starmie with Thunderbolt. Anything that really threatens Jolteon doesn't have a Sleep mover either, although Gengar does give some trouble.
The obvious counter though is immediately switching to Golem/Rhydon, but then you can switch to Exeggutor (either the same turn or after, depending on what you think the opponent will do), and Exeggutor out against Golem/Rhydon early on means a safe Sleep, though Body Slam could paralyze Exeggutor.
I think Jolteon could be a new OU, as most of the main flaws are either easier to counter now, or less common in the first place. Do you think Jolteon could work in OU more comfortably now, or can its weaknesses still be exploited?
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Post by Crystal_ on Jun 3, 2010 3:59:17 GMT -8
However, Jolteon is not being used enough to be OU. I haven't seen Jolteon for months in OU (without Trades obviously). If Jolteon becomes more frecuently here now, though, it will be moved, but the same can be said abaut every Pokemon.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jun 3, 2010 5:43:04 GMT -8
Does Jolteon's speed advantage really make it a more viable option over Zapdos? I'm not talking about leading here, just overall.
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Post by subsmoke on Jun 3, 2010 7:41:09 GMT -8
Yeah but all it has over zapdos is speed and double kick. It's still not much threat to alakazam or gengar with pin missile. Double kick can do a good chunk of damage to rocks on a critical though. Good to be faster than tauros and persian too so you can paralyze em.
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Post by Dexter on Jun 3, 2010 10:07:34 GMT -8
No way in hell
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Post by t3h Icy on Jun 3, 2010 12:03:44 GMT -8
I find taking Ice neutrally and resisting Electric are two big benefits Jolteon has over Zapdos.
EDIT: Also Crystal, I don't think tiers should be based strictly on usage. If everyone started using Pidgeot but were losing, does that make it more viable? I don't think so.
But in that case anyway, me, WW and GGFan have been/are starting to use Jolteon.
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Post by WaterWizard on Jun 3, 2010 12:08:29 GMT -8
Zapdos has more of a presence. It can hit Exeggutor, Chansey, Gengar, and Alakazam with reliable damage, whereas Jolteon just rolls the dice with his highly variable Pin Missile.
Also, you kind of threw out Jolteon's advantage when it comes to Golem when you said they aren't used as often anymore and that Eggy can just switch in.
Also, Zapdos' special is 348. So even if he is weak to Ice, it doesn't do as much as it could. Zapdos huge special also absorbs Psychic a little better than Jolteon's 318.
On the flip side, I have been using Jolteon lately on my speed team. I also have a duel-Electric team that's had considerable success in this recent Golem-rare environment.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jun 3, 2010 12:20:28 GMT -8
Guess I'll have to work Rhydon back into my team, huh?
(I refuse to use that exploding meatball)
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Post by t3h Icy on Jun 3, 2010 13:48:14 GMT -8
Yeah Jolteon lead sucks. =P
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Underboss
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Post by Underboss on Jun 3, 2010 14:33:04 GMT -8
Jolteon is like Slowbro, you got to hope for luck: Slowbro hopes for no crits from himself and the opponent Jolteon hopes for many crits and high pin missile count Jolteon has no stalling potential (no recover move) tho so it gets beat up good if it doesn't get lucky. If u put Rest on it, its very unlikely to have a chance to sleep well and ull have to give up twave, double kick, or pin missile, which makes it more counterable. Jynx is probably a better glass cannon than Jolteon.
Anyway, Icy, I'd be willing to test with you to see if Jolteon lead can beat Zam or other leads more often than the other way around. In fact I'd like to see what LS Starmie could do.
Jolteon can only do about 9.5% per missile to Zam without Reflect. So it takes at least 3 turns to kill Zam without Zam recovering if u don't have a crit or an FP.
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Post by posthuman on Jun 3, 2010 15:10:41 GMT -8
Zapdos is better, but Jolteon is pretty cool.
LS Starmie? Do you know what Jolteon's CH rate is?
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Underboss
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Post by Underboss on Jun 3, 2010 15:14:52 GMT -8
Jolteon's crit rate is 25.4% Alakazam's crit rate 23.4% Starmie's crit rate is 22.5%
It's high but it isn't that special, Starmie is just as likely to get an FP on Jolteon. Although, you'd probably need a T-wave, LS, Recover, Surf/Psychic Starmie to beat Jolteon, which is pretty weird.
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Post by GGFan on Jun 3, 2010 15:40:08 GMT -8
Jolteon is one of the best revenge killers in the game--nothing can safely switch into it. In regards to some potential counters, Chansey risks losing over half its health switching into Double Kick, and Pin Missile OHKOs Exeggutor with a crit and 4 hits. Also, Jolteon is one of the few Pokemon who can OHKO Tauros on average, accomplishing this feat with a critical hit Thunder. Yes, a large portion of Jolteon's success depends on its critical hit rate, but it's hard not to take chances when you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a critical hit every turn.
Even Golem suffers a bit from Jolteon's crits. While taking an average of 33% from a crit Double Kick may not seem like much, it does mean that Golem has to be at high health to safely switch in. Furthermore, it also means that a sleeping Golem isn't guaranteed to wake up in time to kill Jolteon, which is significant because Golem is popular sleep bait.
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Underboss
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Post by Underboss on Jun 3, 2010 16:56:46 GMT -8
"nothing can safely switch into it" The Rocks can safely switch in to it. Hoping for 3 crits in a row is a 1/64 chance occurance. The other 63 times will be bad for Jolteon. Also keep in mind Zapdos's crit rate: 19.5%.
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Post by GGFan on Jun 3, 2010 17:07:41 GMT -8
As I said, Golem has to be at high health to safely switch in. It isn't practical otherwise unless you have no choice. It's not like I'm saying that Jolteon will always beat a Golem that has under 60% health.
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Underboss
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Post by Underboss on Jun 3, 2010 20:32:30 GMT -8
Hmm, Jolteon would rape though if Focus Energy worked right. He almost always gets a critical hit after doing one Focus Energy. It darn shame Stadium Mode is only 3 vs. 3. Does anyone know if there's any way to get Stadium Mode to be 6 vs. 6? Any modded Servers or anything???
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Post by t3h Icy on Jun 3, 2010 20:37:02 GMT -8
That's not what Stadium Mode does. All it does is make matches 3v3. It's called Stadium Mode because in the game, you and your opponent see each others 6 Pokemon and you both select 3 each.
Also I think what GGFan meant with Double Kick was that Golem can't switch in as safely as Zapdos for example due to Double Kick being stronger than Drill Peck, and also Jolteon has a higher CH rate.
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Underboss
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Post by Underboss on Jun 3, 2010 20:40:15 GMT -8
No Icy, me and Zilch tried it and Focus Energy works perfectly in Stadium Mode on Netbattle. Jolteon got crits 8 of 8 times. So, it'd be great if there were Stadium rules applied to Jolteon. With Focus Energy, Jolteon would be a brilliant late-game sweeper, and definitely OU.
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Post by t3h Icy on Jun 3, 2010 21:06:11 GMT -8
Didn't know that. That's cool. Yes, definitely with Focus Energy, Jolteon is OU, but you have to consider other Pokemon that can use Focus Energy well, like Vaporeon, Flareon, Machamp and others that might alter the metagame if they worked. Anywho, I think after testing somethings and trying Jolteon out in multiple ways against multiple opponents, Jolteon is still top BL, but doesn't have quite the oomph to reach OU.
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Post by WaterWizard on Jun 3, 2010 21:32:17 GMT -8
Also note that even with Stadium mode enabled, Substitute does still not function properly (e.g. Thunder Wave still paralyzes through a sub).
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Underboss
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Post by Underboss on Jun 3, 2010 21:45:31 GMT -8
Well you have to keep in mind that Focus Energy can only be used once and it quadruples the critical hit rate. So Jolteon is the only FE user that gets 100% crit rate after Focus Energy, which is insane XD. Machamp, on the other hand, only has a crit rate of 10.7%. So, while 40.7% is nice with Machamp, it isn't the reliable 100% that Jolteon gets. Scyther only gets 82.03% crit rate, and he's the next fastest. The next fastest, Raticate, only gets 75.8%. But yeah, somehow making Stadium be 6 v 6 could make a great tourney basis.
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Post by WaterWizard on Jun 3, 2010 22:40:38 GMT -8
Why not just ask the NBS programmers to make Focus Energy work "properly" without having to use Stadium Mode. That makes more sense to me.
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Underboss
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Post by Underboss on Jun 3, 2010 23:39:12 GMT -8
Well, I think they might say that they intentionally made Focus Energy not work right because they wanted it to be "authentic" RBY. As if u were playing on the Gameboy. Then the clauses modify the Gameboy version to the version we play. So maybe we can ask them to create a "Fix Focus Energy" clause. Because otherwise they would change RBY to make Substitute resist status effects like it does in Stadium and possibly make Hyper Beam always recharge (although even in their stadium mode, it doesn't need to recharge). I'll need to see if Substitute works different in Stadium Mode.
But in the end, I think people want to play with the Stadium "fixes" in place from time to time without 3 v 3 requirement. I think it's called Prime Cup in the game. So yeah maybe they could call it "Prime Cup" haha.
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Post by WaterWizard on Jun 3, 2010 23:58:02 GMT -8
I like the idea of a "Stadium Focus Energy clause" and even a "Stadium Substitute clause." That would be wonderful. I'd say those are the only two additional clauses needed. Hyper Beam's nature in RBY is too ingrained and shouldn't be changed.
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Post by t3h Icy on Jun 4, 2010 0:08:55 GMT -8
Although that would conflict with setting other rules, I think changing Hyper Beam would be one left out. Nerfing Physicals in a Special-dominated game would be brutal.
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Underboss
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Post by Underboss on Jun 4, 2010 0:28:59 GMT -8
Yeah, the only 3 differences between Stadium RBY and gameboy RBY is Substitute, Focus Energy, and Hyper Beam. And I agree with you completely on not changing Hyper Beam. But it looks like their Stadium mode keeps Hyper Beam the say it is but fixes Focus Energy. I still need to check substitute.
UPDATE: Ok I see you too have already tested this. Looks like Focus Energy is the only thing that changes in Stadium Mode, which is very odd of those NBS people haha.
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Post by posthuman on Jun 4, 2010 2:03:15 GMT -8
I'd be cool with a "fix focus energy" and "fix substitute" clause. That would be fun to mess with.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jun 4, 2010 5:01:20 GMT -8
Stadium has a fourth difference, actually. Sleep only lasts for 1-3 turns there, probably to compensate for only having 3v3 battles. If they wanted Stadium rules to apply for normal battling, they should use the regular sleeping time instead.
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Post by Crystal_ on Jun 4, 2010 9:36:53 GMT -8
Substitute glitch confirmed: It does work in stadium as in standard RBY. Just another think I wasn't sure abaut: If the first move of a multi-hit move CHs or does not CH, the other moves will also CH or will not CH respectively. For example Double Kick or Pin Missile.
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Post by WaterWizard on Jun 4, 2010 9:49:27 GMT -8
Yes Crystal, all the hits of a multi-hit move will Critical Hit if one of them does (so both Double Kicks will CH and all 2-5 Fury Attacks).
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