(6) Tiers - A Taxonomy

[WaterWizard]

This thread is to discuss tiering systems and their taxonomy.

We need to decide how we're going to do the tiers.

In my opinion, RBY pokemon should be divided into 6 tiers for battling. You have 3 competitive tiers, and 3 ban (uber) tiers. Incidentally, one of the ban tiers happens to be playable (at the moment).



Placement is determined by Usefulness and Usage. A pokemon is first tested in OU, and then moved (or not moved) depending on the following concepts.

If he is useful, he will consequently be used and he stays in the tier. If he is too useful, he moves up to the respective ban tier.

If he is not useful enough, he moves down to the next competitive tier down and the process is then repeated. Those not worthy of OU go to UU, and those not worthy of UU go to NU.

Does this make sense? I know Crystal and posthuman agree with this taxonomy, and I think many others do as well.


Comments? Please post a reply agreeing or disagreeing with this so we know and can figure things out.


To move this tier system from theory to practice, I've posted a sample of how the 6 tier system might work. Let me know what you think. Of course, since the RBY metagame is always morphing, any pokemon's placement is subject to change, regardless of what tier system is used.







Mew
Mewtwo


Alakazam
Articuno
Chansey
Exeggutor
Gengar
Golem
Jolteon ?
Jynx
Lapras
Persian
Rhydon
Slowbro
Snorlax
Starmie
Tauros
Zapdos


Clefable
Cloyster
Dodrio
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Gyarados
Haunter
Hypno
Kadabra
Moltres
Mr. Mime
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Raichu
Tentacruel


Charizard
Dewgong
Electabuzz
Golduck
Graveler
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Magneton
Poliwrath
Porygon
Raticate
Sandslash
Tangela
Vaporeon
Venomoth
Venusaur ?
Victreebel ?


Poliwhirl
Ninetales ?


Aerodactyl
Arbok
Beedrill
Butterfree
Ditto
Electrode
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Golbat
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Kabutops
Lickitung
Machamp
Magmar
Marowak
Muk
Omastar
Onix
Parasect
Pidgeot
Pinsir
Primeape
Rapidash
Scyther
Seadra
Seaking
Vileplume
Weezing
Wigglytuff

Note that more NU experimentation is needed. In a highly joking manner, I say the following.

There are undoubtedly some pokemon in NU that will NEVER EVER be used. If people are extremely bored we may end up with a NEU (Ditto, Golbat, and Seaking, etc) and a NEUU tier (Farfetch'd)... haha

[t3h Icy]

Looks good, but I'd leave the name BL in place of "Uber UU" since it's borderline of the standard metagame.

[posthuman]

I agree with this system. Six tiers works for now; they just need to be fixed.

I'm of the opinion that certain less-powerful BL Pokémon should be moved into UU, and then testing should be done from there. All Pokémon that centralize UU should then be moved back to BL.

[WaterWizard]

that wouldn't work! that would make BL the new UU, moving the current UUs to NU, and so on...

[Crystal_]

That's OK. Just have in mind that the NU ban tier is something new for competitive battling in every generation (it is a great solution for Poliwhirl though =P)

[Underboss]

If a ban tier has 15+ pokemon in it and, as you said WW, the ban tier "happens to be playable" then it must be more than a ban tier. It should be a competitive tier with it's own metagame and two new ban tiers need to be created above and below it. I don't give a dang about what DPPt has or has not been doing with it's BL tier. I checked on Smogon and it seems to me that they let their BL tier go to waste. Well, I don't think RBY has to be the same. I think RBY can have 4 or maybe even 5 competitive tiers and thus should have either 8 or 10 tiers.

But to just accept UberUU has a ban tier that is bigger than OU is just wrong when we know it is competitive. I ask why it's so hard to accept the "creation" of a BL metagame. What really baffles me is why this wasn't done years ago. Did RBYers in the past just have no imagination? Did they only do OU and UU? That's seems so boring and limited to me personally.

I'll be willing to accept this 6 tier system for now since it's an improvement over what we got now and it is based on the right principle that there are a certain number of competitive tiers and each one has a ban tier to accompany it and make it fair. Where we disagree is on the number of competitive tiers. You think there is only OU, UU, NU as competitive tiers, and I think there is 4 competitive tiers with OU, BL, UU, NU. Maybe BL should be renamed as "MediumUsed" so that it will look more in line with the other competitive tiers. I like this system over the current tier system because it easily allows for the creation of the BL competitive after the BL metagame gets more established.

And again, I agree another competitive tier called NEU could be created from the rejects of NU. But if you are willing to go that far, then at least make BL a competitive tier as well.

[Crystal_]

Our RBY now has 5 competitive tiers: Uber, OU, BL, UU and NU no matter whether they are ban tiers or not. Enough if not too much.
8-10 tiers?!?!? Is this a joke?!?!?!
There will be more tiers than RBY players lol.
And Under, BL is BL, we are reviving the RBY metagame not creating a new metagame changing everything.
By far there are five tiers: Uber, OU, BL, UU and NU. We should finish them before creating the BanNU tier.

Don't be crazy!!!!

[Underboss]

Listen, I agree that BL is a competitive tier. It should be treated the same as OU, UU, and NU, and not as Uber. Uber (OU ban tier) has only 2 pokemon in it. You can't have a metagame based on that. The Uber metagame is still 2/3 OU. That's in stark contrast with BL (currently the UU ban tier) which has 15-22 pokemon in it, depending on who you ask. You can build a separate metagame out of BL where you almost all BL really and almost no UU. So if we are going to have OU, BL, UU, and NU as competitive tiers, then we must do as WW said and have corresponding ban tiers for it.

So WW says we have 3 competitive tiers and one "nicety" competitive tier and Crystal says we have 5 competitive tiers and that a ban tier can be a competitive tier and for some reason when I say we should have 4 competitive tiers (OU, BL, UU, NU) and possibly a fifth one (NEU), that is crazy. BL will continue to stay bloated and its metagame will have to have to be recognized as a standard competitive tier on equal footing will OU and UU.

[Crystal_]

WaterWizard didn't say to make a banBL tier. Look at his post.
It doesn't matter whether they are competitive or not, but having 8-10 tiers is crazy. What do want is to make one extra tier for each competitive tier to "support" them. I can only say: OMG!
We cannot start making ban tiers until the standard tier seems to us nice.

I will repeat: We are reviving RBY, not creating new metagames.

[Underboss]

"I will repeat: We are reviving RBY, not creating new metagames." - Crystal
I think we revive RBY in part by rethinking the metagames and reworking the tiers. That's why we are talking about changing the UU and NU tiers to have better metagames there. The BL metagame has existed for a while it seems, it's just that it's been neglected in favor of OU and UU.

Look at WW's List and you'll see that OU and UU both have around 15ish pokes in them, while the OU and NU ban tiers have only 1-2 pokemon in them. But the UU ban tier has as many pokemon in it has UU. It's absurd to say that the UU ban tier can't be considered competitive.

Smogon only has 5 tiers because they combine the ban tier with the competitive tier above. For example, there is no Uber NU tier because it is combined with the UU tier. The Uber UU tier is combined with the BL tier, and the Uber BL tier is combined with OU tier, and the Uber OU tier is just called Uber.

[posthuman]

BL can have a metagame because of the amount of Pokémon in it, but don't expect it to be balanced or entirely varied. Those that centralize the BL meta can't be moved up a tier.

[Underboss]

Not with the 6 tier system, no. But if we added 2 more tiers, then we could move the BL centralizers to the BL Ubers tier. Again, I encourage this community to first rework the UU and NU tiers to know what we are dealing with in terms of UberUU. But after that is done, I would like to see some exploration of UberUU and it being made a full fledged competitive tier.

[WaterWizard]

Yeah, posthuman is right. Feel free to play BL. It's already (luckily) pretty balanced, and not centralized (especially since Arty and Jolt should be leaving).

Underboss, I see what you mean about adding a ban tier below and above BL. But we need to wait a few months before thinking about that. For now, UU and NU need to be worked on.

One way we're trying to reduce the size of BL is to move Arty and Jolt up, and move Kangy, Sandslash, Venusaur, and Victreebel down. Others may follow (the Nidos? Clefable? we'll see).

For now, so far 6 tiers seems to have overwhelming support. we'll see what Zilch, Nerd, Sub, GGfan, and the others think about it.

[Underboss]

How are you going to be able to shrink BL without affecting UU significantly? I mean looking at your current proposed list, most are a definite no-no to add to UU. Soon UU might even become the BL metagame lol.

My opinion on what should happen to each BL:
Clefable - Maybe
Cloyster - Unbeatable physical wall, no
Dodrio - Same attack as snorlax - no
Dragonite - He would rape UU -no
Dugtrio - This dude might even be OU material - no
Gyarados - Epic sweeper in UU - heck no
Haunter - Special sponge monster and very fast sleeper - no
Hypno - No way
Kadabra - Psychic rape - no
Moltres - 348 special, might be counterable by Vaporeon, but still - almost definitely no
Mr. Mime - no way, too powerful in UU with all those poisons running around.
Nidoking - eh maybe could be, but probably not
Nidoqueen - I'm sympathetic to moving the queen down,
Raichu - No way
Tentacruel - Probably one of the best special walls - no

Also, why is Venusaur proposed in UU? I thought you were dead against that since it would rape Golduck and Poliwrath.

[posthuman]

Underboss. We need to move these BL Pokémon down to UU and then test it. The metagame will be different, but that's okay. If Venusaur (or anything else we move down) rapes everything, then we'll move it back up. UU WILL CHANGE. It's inevitable.

We're trying to shrink BL because it is a ban tier and it should not be huge. UU will obviously be affected, but that's why we need to test to see how it changes and if anything centralizes. You cannot accurately speculate on how UU will be affected with each Pokémon moved from BL until it has been tested thoroughly.

UU will not take on the BL metagame because BL has no competitive metagame. It's a ban tier. That's it. I know you want to use BL Pokémon, but you must wait until UU is added to and balanced properly. If, after all this, BL is still large, then another tier or two can be created to form a BL metagame. As for now, stick to fixing UU.

[Dexter]

Jun 7, 2010 18:18:29 GMT -8 posthuman said:

Underboss. We need to move these BL Pokémon down to UU and then test it. The metagame will be different, but that's okay. If Venusaur (or anything else we move down) rapes everything, then we'll move it back up. UU WILL CHANGE. It's inevitable.

We're trying to shrink BL because it is a ban tier and it should not be huge. UU will obviously be affected, but that's why we need to test to see how it changes and if anything centralizes. You cannot accurately speculate on how UU will be affected with each Pokémon moved from BL until it has been tested thoroughly.

UU will not take the BL metagame because BL has no competitive metagame. It's a ban tier. That's it. I know you want to use BL Pokémon, but you must wait until UU is added to and balanced properly. If, after all this, BL is still large, then another tier or two can be created to form a BL metagame. As for now, stick to fixing UU.

finally someone making some sense with this whole tiering fiasco

[WaterWizard]

we can start fixing it now that they tournament is over.

[Underboss]

Listen post, I know you don't want to accept the reality of a competitive battling metagame consisting of Cloyster, Dugtrio, Gyarados, Venusaur, Raichu, Kadabra, Haunter, Dodrio, Hypno and others alone but guess what? It's REAL and these pokemon will take it with them wherever they eventually end up. They aren't going to be on the same level as Poliwrath, Electabuzz, and Blastoise; they will wreck them and dominate. But yeah, we should have testing to confirm that most BLs will rape and overcentralize in UU.

[posthuman]

What? Did you read my entire post? We should not discuss a BL metagame until we fix UU, which will take some time. Be patient.

[Underboss]

"BL has no competitive metagame" - posthuman
That is false

[WaterWizard]

To be honest, I'm not sure where the BLs came from in the first place... Clearly if they were all UUs at one point they would never have been moved because they prevent themselves from centralizing... weird...

[Underboss]

Yeah it does seem weird that RBY would end up with 15-20 pokemon in UberUU, which is supposed to just be a ban tier for UU. How can a ban tier be so big? I suspect the tier system in the past was geared only towards standard OU play and everything else was more of an afterthought.

Also I just noticed you got the image for OU Ubers wrong:

"UU Ubers aka Ubers"

[WaterWizard]

thanks under, I fixed the Ubers icon.

i'm starting to think making 8 tiers now may be better... convince us!

[Crystal_]

- Moltres MUST be UU if Charizard is, because it is more countereable without EG, BS and SD.

- Arcanine IS NU by usage, since nobody ahs used it since this community was created.

- Nidos discussion:

- Nidoqueen: Possible change (to UU) but risky. Weaknesses to Psychic, Water, Ice and Ground. A water type is going to come but is going to take an EQ and all waters but Golduck are slower. Kingler is slower takes a 2HKO from Tbolt, Grasses take a Blizzard, and Charizard gets Slided for a 2HKO. Electabuzz's Psychic only 3HKOes without chs/spc fells.
- Nidoking: Even more risky, 3HKOing Vaporeon with EQ nearly always and tying with Golduck, doing more to Poli, Zard etc. Has lower defenses but the most important hits do the same XHKOs to both nidos (Electa's Psychic (3HKO), Surfs (2HKO; from any water really), EQs)...

- Venusaur and Victreebell ARE too powerful for UU, as they are only countered by fire-types. You can still use Ivysaur / Weepinbell who may still have potential in UU, 2HKOing any Water (even Vaporeon most times) and OHKOing Kingler; and they have sleep powder as you should know. They should stay in BL.


So far, Moltres, Arcanine, and perhaps Kabutops (to UU, based on usage) and maybe Blastoise (to NU, again, usage) are the only changes that should -must- (or may in the last 2 cases) be done.

[subsmoke]

See I don't think it should be based on usage only so I would put Arcanine and Machamp in UU if it would make NU unbalanced

[Crystal_]

But tiers MUST BE based on usage, just like football must be played with a ball. The problem is not discussing between should or shouldn't, the problem is to find correctly the usuage of each one.

One could say OU is unbalanced, becasue there is not a sure Tauros counter since Skarmory was not made in RBY, but with whatever pokes OU is OU. And NU, unbalanced or not, is NU. NU just has to obey UU.

[WaterWizard]

Cloyster counters Tauros. The fact that Cloyster isn't used more shows that Tauros is less of a worry than people might think. Chansey and Eggy's higher poll ratings also lend to this.

Gengar --> Articuno allows a free switch-in to another pokemon who kills Tauros before getting killed.

[subsmoke]

Who says the tiers have to be about usage? We can do whatever we want. There's no law that says we have to do it this or that way.

[Crystal_]

www.smogon.com/articles/tiers

This is the way in which they have always been tiered. Changing a 15-year system isn't a good idea.