CANCELED - "No Rules" Haxfest Tournament

[lilith]

ATTENTION

After only two entrants in a 50 day signup period, I have decided to close this tournament.

With the RBYPlus tournament and the impending March anniversary activities (whatever they may be) it really isn't a good time to have this going. Feel free to play matches with friends and post the logs. You can also use the tournament feature on NBS or PO if the scripts are up.

Generate support first and then try this again sometime after March.

WW


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


hai guys, who wants to do this?

• Round robin, first to 3, PO
  
• Sleep clause is off
  
• Freeze clause is off
  
• Species clause is off
  
• Self-KO clause is off; a tie is a loss for both players
  
• Gengar with Hypnosis, Jynx with Lovely Kiss, and Haunter with Hypnosis are underage b&¹ (but Mewtwo and Mew are not)
  
• All moves are allowed (including evasion, OHKO, and trapping moves)

entrants:

• lilith
  
• agentsyrup

i was inspired a bit by the 1v1 with sleep metagame but felt it was a little simple and wondered what it would look like with some of the complexity of 6v6 added in...

other clauses are off for lulz / coz they probably don't make a difference considering a 75% accuracy OHKO move is legal.

¹dumping some edited mini-analysis i mostly did when planning for the 1v1 tournament which should serve to explain the gengar ban:

sleepafusion set is scary:
Gengar
- Hypnosis
- Substitute
- Confuse Ray
- Night Shade / Seismic Toss

against a faster attacker that wakes up after one turn:
- Substitute gives a 60% chance to Hypnosis without getting hit, a 24% chance to Hypnosis after getting hit once, and a 9.6% chance to Hypnosis after getting hit twice.
- Confuse Ray (even assuming confusion doesn't end) gives a P=.5*(.6 + .4*P)=37.5% chance to Hypnosis without getting hit, a P=.5*(.6 + .4*.375) + .5*(.4*P)=.5*(.6 + .55*P)=41.38% chance to Hypnosis after getting hit once, and generally seems like a lower priority against non-sleeper threats.

the only positive matchups i can think of against gengar:

Mewtwo
- Psychic
- Splash
- Splash
- Splash

Alakazam
- Psychic
- Recover
- Seismic Toss
- Reflect / Thunder Wave

t-wave is extremely situational in 6v6 to say the least.

Dugtrio
- Earthquake
- Slash
- Rock Slide
- Hyper Beam

slash and h-beam are for eggy, rock slide is for jynx. body slam is quite a risk.

Starmie
- Psychic
- Recover
- Blizzard / Thunderbolt / Surf / Thunder Wave
- Blizzard / Thunderbolt / Surf / Thunder Wave

starmie has a 1.1% lower ch rate than zam/dugtrio, making it slightly worse of a gengar check. blizzard for eggy, thunderbolt for other starmies, surf for everything else.

each of these have around a .23 + .77*(.4) = 53.8% chance to 1-2hko gengar before getting hit by hypnosis. mewtwo has a .254 + .746*(.4) = 55.24% chance. let's call this a 60% winrate at best.

rumours of tauros having a positive matchup against gengar have been greatly exaggerated:
First: 50%
* Hit: 60%
* Miss: 40%
* * CH: 21.5%
* * 2hko: 78.5% -> 30% first&hit win
Second: 50%
* CH: 21.5%
* 2hko: 78.5%
* * Hit: 60%
* * Miss: 40% -> 30% first&hit win
.5*(.6 + .4*(.785*.3)) + .5*(.785*(.6 + .4*.3)) = 62.97% for Hypnosis to hit

this number doesn't account for 0-turn sleeps, but those are rare enough and aren't even an instant loss for gengar.

jolteon's pin missile is too weak to do anything. persian and aerodactyl can't earthquake, electrode is electrode, and that just about covers the gengar speed tier.

possibly incomplete list of things that at least have a chance to beat gengar before getting hit by hypnosis:
via their own sleep move (neither side's chance to wake up is reflected, so everyone probably gains a tiny bit in reality, and chansey and the psychic types probably gain a couple more percentage points than the others):
parasect (40%), exeggutor / jynx / venusaur / tangela / victreebel / venomoth / butterfree / vileplume (30%), hypno / poliwrath (24%), chansey / lapras / clefable / wigglytuff (22%)
via earthquake (chance to wake up isn't reflected by the numbers, so add a few percentage points here and there):
rhydon (40%), golem (nearly 40%), tauros (37%), sandslash (~23%, must crit or roll high), nidoking (rarely), various others but only with a CH

haunter has the same issues and jynx is even stronger if gengar's not there to check her. with all three banned, venomoth is the fastest sleep user, and venomoth is much easier to deal with, while checking all of the stronger but slower sleep users.

[jorgen]

How can you claim this is "no rules" and have Gengar/Jynx/Haunter banned?

Also with Mewtwo allowed there is absolutely no reason to ban any of those things.

[lilith]

Jan 14, 2013 21:35:46 GMT -8 jorgen said:

How can you claim this is "no rules" and have Gengar/Jynx/Haunter banned?

that's why i put it in quotes

Also with Mewtwo allowed there is absolutely no reason to ban any of those things.

i think sleep clause deserves moar credit for mewtwo's dominance than mewtwo does. even parasect beats (non-fireblast) mewtwo with sleep clause off... also, i'd guess mewtwo is 60-40 with gengar at best based on alakazam's and starmie's numbers.

edit: well, doing the math coz whatever: mewtwo's chances of not falling asleep are .254 + .746*(.4) = 55.24%. hardly dominant.

[t3h Icy]

Double Team + Rest is a filthy combo, lol.

[Zilch]

Such a shame that Swift Swords Dance Sandslash destroys all DTers.

[t3h Icy]

I was going to suggest Swords Dance, Swift, Rest Double Team Sandslash, or even just the first two, but he gets demolished too quickly to make use of it. Freezes are also helpful in such a stally, silly metagame (especially if Freeze Clause is off), so Ice moves are probably all over.

[Agent Syrup]

Sign me up! I would love to use some unorthodox strategies in this unorthodox metagame!

[cheese]

No offense, but that metagame sounds a bit too unorthodox to be any fun.

[Isa]

I don't agree with this ruleset. Gengar is dominated by Mewtwo/Zam and the accuracy is just not good enough (also good luck actually killing Mewtwo of he lowers his attack EV/DV). Mostly though, I don't think it'd be very fun without Species Clause as well as Sleep Clause, so I am sitting out.

[Agent Syrup]

Dosn't seem to be well liked. Maybe a revision of the rules is in order?

[lilith]

Jan 15, 2013 13:13:25 GMT -8 Isa said:

I don't agree with this ruleset. Gengar is dominated by Mewtwo/Zam and the accuracy is just not good enough (also good luck actually killing Mewtwo of he lowers his attack EV/DV). Mostly though, I don't think it'd be very fun without Species Clause as well as Sleep Clause, so I am sitting out.

i agree that it's a losing matchup for gengar, although i think gengar will get lucky a decent portion of the time, making mewtwo more of a check than a counter. gengar has a 45% chance to sleep mewtwo, and a ~50% chance to still have hp for substitute after it sleeps mewtwo. (also, the self-damage shouldn't be that relevant as the main purpose of confusion is to make it moar likely for gengar to hit with hypnosis a second time, after which mewtwo takes an average of 400 damage or something).

i worry that mewtwo's presence alone wouldn't stop gengar from filling 3 slots on each team. in 1v1 i'd agree with you completely, as mewtwo just luls at many things, but i think it's also relevant that while chansey/hypno/etc can switch in on mewtwo (in a sense trapping it, as any switch-in has sleep to fear as well), nothing can switch in on gengar or any other sleeper and not care.

but i'm just theorycrafting, so i'd be open to trying a meta with nothing banned. i do feel like this one is moar likely to have diversity, though.

but ya, this metagame is probably "unfun" by normal standards either way

Jan 15, 2013 13:45:55 GMT -8 Agent Syrup said:

Dosn't seem to be well liked. Maybe a revision of the rules is in order?

mm, would people gain interest with gengar unbanned or something? i sorta got the sense that many just don't like the premise of sleep clause being off.

[LucasBM]

Maybe "species-clause only" would sound better than "no-rules".

We had a no-sleep clause, and people can help on ways to put up with constant risk of being put asleep.

[Nyara?]

I could support it if:

- Mewtwo/Mew are banned
- Gengar/Haunter and Jynx without Sleeping Moves
- Species Clause: ON

Why? Simply, the idea of a No Rules Haxfest is actually to use non-standard stuff in order to combat those new threats, and new threats will appaer, like Parasect sleeping everything and its mother, or stuff with Double Team and Minimize making you needed to put Swift on some part, but with Mewtwo and Mew unbanned, it will just gonna be an UBERS battle, and without Species Clause: 6 Mewtwo's vs 6 Mewtwo's or with them banned, 6 Chansey vs 6 Chansey or thing of that sort, that's not too much different or funny at all. The Gengar/Haunter/Jynx without Sleeping Moves was already explained, but, still, it's far too broken, and people will just spam those tree until they win, that's not funny at all, and because everyones will just spam them, it will be exactly the same as a Metronome Tournament, but without the fun of Metronome (and talking about that, a Metronome Tournamnet sounds funny, anyway, we should try that).

[Agent Syrup]

"Mewtwo
- Psychic
- Splash
- Splash
- Splash"

Oh goodness! Mewtwo with Splash! Ubers will never be the same again!

[lilith]

Feb 18, 2013 3:38:05 GMT -8 Nyara? said:

I could support it if:

- Mewtwo/Mew are banned
- Gengar/Haunter and Jynx without Sleeping Moves
- Species Clause: ON

Why? Simply, the idea of a No Rules Haxfest is actually to use non-standard stuff in order to combat those new threats, and new threats will appaer, like Parasect sleeping everything and its mother, or stuff with Double Team and Minimize making you needed to put Swift on some part, but with Mewtwo and Mew unbanned, it will just gonna be an UBERS battle, and without Species Clause: 6 Mewtwo's vs 6 Mewtwo's or with them banned, 6 Chansey vs 6 Chansey or thing of that sort, that's not too much different or funny at all. The Gengar/Haunter/Jynx without Sleeping Moves was already explained, but, still, it's far too broken, and people will just spam those tree until they win, that's not funny at all, and because everyones will just spam them, it will be exactly the same as a Metronome Tournament, but without the fun of Metronome (and talking about that, a Metronome Tournamnet sounds funny, anyway, we should try that).

err, i doubt mew would even show up as it doesn't have any useful tools against sleepers...

and mewtwo has a really hard time with both hypno and sing chansey.

but everyone seems to disagree on what's too broken and what's not so i doubt this tournament will ever happen

[Nyara?]

Mew can OHKO all the remaining sleepers before they even try to sleep him, well, except Hypno and Chansey, but all you need is a previous Sword Dance boost and they can't damage you at all even if they sleep you (shaky accuracy), so, it's just a thing of wake up again and sweep. Mewtwo can simply destroy the entire Pokéworld with a Amnesia on its hands, or even without that, it can just use Barrier and being impossible, as even if he sleeps 7 turns, the unique way to destroy him is via Leech Seed while he's sleeping (if you're lucky), Tobybro, pray and hope, multi-critical-hits and 5+ turns of sleep, or just explode something, but hey, they are 6 Mewtwo, good luck (?) If you happen to paralyze him, then he'll gonna come to absorb any sleep on the game.

[Dre]

Keep gengar etc. legal and just keep a species clause. That'll probably make it more fun.

[lilith]

Feb 19, 2013 20:34:23 GMT -8 Dre said:

Keep gengar etc. legal and just keep a species clause. That'll probably make it more fun.

with gengar legal but only one, i think lots of matches would be decided by how often that one gengar misses - but maybe not, and i guess there are still plenty of interesting choices to be made in the game!

how many people would be up for playing this version?

Mew can OHKO all the remaining sleepers before they even try to sleep him, well, except Hypno and Chansey, but all you need is a previous Sword Dance boost and they can't damage you at all even if they sleep you (shaky accuracy), so, it's just a thing of wake up again and sweep. Mewtwo can simply destroy the entire Pokéworld with a Amnesia on its hands, or even without that, it can just use Barrier and being impossible, as even if he sleeps 7 turns, the unique way to destroy him is via Leech Seed while he's sleeping (if you're lucky), Tobybro, pray and hope, multi-critical-hits and 5+ turns of sleep, or just explode something, but hey, they are 6 Mewtwo, good luck (?) If you happen to paralyze him, then he'll gonna come to absorb any sleep on the game.

i'd love to do some testing! maybe i'm totally crazy

would you be up for playing some games with all clauses off with an OU team against a 6-mew/mewtwo team?

[magic9mushroom]

Feb 18, 2013 3:38:05 GMT -8 Nyara? said:

Why? Simply, the idea of a No Rules Haxfest is actually to use non-standard stuff in order to combat those new threats, and new threats will appaer, like Parasect sleeping everything and its mother, or stuff with Double Team and Minimize making you needed to put Swift on some part, but with Mewtwo and Mew unbanned, it will just gonna be an UBERS battle, and without Species Clause: 6 Mewtwo's vs 6 Mewtwo's or with them banned, 6 Chansey vs 6 Chansey or thing of that sort, that's not too much different or funny at all.

Mewtwo can't sleep. That alone makes 6 Mewtwo a dumb idea.

My, personal, problem with RBY with unrestricted sleep is that RBY sleep was clearly balanced for Poke Flute. OHKO moves aren't broken, because only a few things learn them and most of them are slow (and moreover, Gengar is immune to Horn Drill and all Flyings are immune to Fissure). Wrap isn't broken, because only a few things learn Wrap and most of them are fragile. Sleep, however, is a clearly overcentralising mechanic, because without Sleep Clause team selection degenerates into the following questions:

(1) How fast is this 'mon?
(2) How accurate is this mon's sleep move?
(3) If it doesn't have a sleep move, can it OHKO the sleepers slower than it, and with what regularity?

That is, unrestricted sleep makes the game wholly about sleep, with little regard to any other concerns.

In the same way, unrestricted evasion makes the game wholly about evasion, because basically everything can and will use Double Team + Rest to become invincible to anything that doesn't have the evasion-ignoring moves, thus making the game wholly about evasion and ways to get around evasion.

This is, in a nutshell, why I support the bans on Evasion moves and overuse of Sleep moves, under pretty much all circumstances - because the game's complexity is completely destroyed by the overcentralisation they bring.


Freeze Clause, OHKO bans, Wrap bans? They can all go hang. But Sleep Clause and Evasion Clause (or some variations thereof - you could theoretically ban sleep entirely, or ban evasion only in combination with recovery, etc) are required to make the game have any depth or value.

[Agent Syrup]

I'd say freeze clause is pretty important... one battle I forgot to have it on and I froze four of my opponents Pokemon. :/
Freeze might not be centralizing, but I still think the clause very important.

[lilith]

Feb 24, 2013 4:32:55 GMT -8 magic9mushroom said:

In the same way, unrestricted evasion makes the game wholly about evasion, because basically everything can and will use Double Team + Rest to become invincible to anything that doesn't have the evasion-ignoring moves, thus making the game wholly about evasion and ways to get around evasion.

This is, in a nutshell, why I support the bans on Evasion moves and overuse of Sleep moves, under pretty much all circumstances - because the game's complexity is completely destroyed by the overcentralisation they bring.

RBY OU is an overcentralized metagame - i hope we've accepted that already

while unrestricted sleep overcentralizes, arguably so do twave, body slam, and recover. everything good in the metagame either has those moves or a way to get around them. everything good in the metagame either learns a paralysis move, wants paralysis setup, or is underage b& on 2k10 (hi dragonite).

not that this meta wouldn't be highly luck-intensive, but i think it'd also have plenty of complexity and skill to develop. like poker or something.

Feb 24, 2013 5:17:14 GMT -8 Agent Syrup said:

I'd say freeze clause is pretty important... one battle I forgot to have it on and I froze four of my opponents Pokemon. :/
Freeze might not be centralizing, but I still think the clause very important.

does a 10% ohko move really matter in a metagame with 75% ~ohko moves and double team?

i'm not really attached to freeze clause being off, but it just seems completely irrelevant to me here

[Agent Syrup]

Oh no. Lilith I was talking about in standard rby not this tournament....

[lilith]

Feb 25, 2013 9:49:55 GMT -8 Agent Syrup said:

Oh no. Lilith I was talking about in standard rby not this tournament....

oh i'm silly

[magic9mushroom]

Feb 25, 2013 9:45:26 GMT -8 lilith said:

while unrestricted sleep overcentralizes, arguably so do twave, body slam, and recover.

There are situations where Thunder Wave or Body Slam is not the best move to use. For instance, if you are facing Rhydon.

Sleep doesn't have that issue, because nothing is immune to sleep, and sleeping 'mons can't attack. The only reasons to not sleep something are either that it's already statused or that you can kill it in one hit with greater accuracy than your sleep move.

(This is also why Sleep Clause is more important than Freeze Clause: Ice-types can't be frozen, so there are safe switch-ins to Ice Beam or Blizzard. There are no safe switch-ins to a sleep move.)

[cheese]

Surely the fact that Blizzard/Ice beam have only a 10% chance of freezing is more of a reason why Freeze clause isn't that important?
I think a double freeze would be pretty rare in a match even if Ice types could be frozen,

[Agent Syrup]

So is anyone else going to sign up for this tournament? Or is Lilith and I going to have at it by ourselves?

[magic9mushroom]

Feb 28, 2013 13:40:29 GMT -8 cheese said:

Surely the fact that Blizzard/Ice beam have only a 10% chance of freezing is more of a reason why Freeze clause isn't that important?
I think a double freeze would be pretty rare in a match even if Ice types could be frozen,

The point is that defending against unrestricted freeze (or unrestricted OHKO) isn't totally luck-based, while defending against unrestricted sleep is. If there's a Reflect Chansey spamming Ice Beam everywhere, you can stop it by sending in Lapras or Jynx. If there's a Reflect Chansey spamming Sing everywhere, though, you don't really have a lot of options except to send in a faster sleeper and hope you don't get slept on the switch or miss.

[Isa]

If you got Reflect, Sing AND Softboiled on the same set I feel bad for you son
I got 99 movesets but Reflect+Sing ain't one!

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 1, 2013 15:09:02 GMT -8 Isa said:

If you got Reflect, Sing AND Softboiled on the same set I feel bad for you son
I got 99 movesets but Reflect+Sing ain't one!

Well, you don't really need Thunder Wave if Sleep Clause is off.

[Isa]

Just for fun, 6 Chanseys with Ice Beam, Reflect, Softboiled and Sing cannot beat a team of 6 Lapras users EVER, unless Chansey gets a ~80% CH ratio. Seismic Toss is most probably the best attacking move on that set.