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Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 4, 2013 22:23:04 GMT -8
I run Psychic/Ice Beam (but it should probably be Blizzard, really)/Thunder Wave/Recover. Ice Beam does have a slight advantage over Blizzard against an Egg lead - neither is going to KO Exeggutor, but Ice Beam has a 1% higher chance of freezing it and thus preventing it from sleeping you. Thunder Waving Jynx on the first turn can be a problem, because Egg will never put anything to sleep if Jynx is paralysed, and the same goes for Gengar. |
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Post by t3h Icy on Feb 4, 2013 22:47:25 GMT -8
Thunder Waving Jynx on turn 1 is ideal, lol. Just kill her later or switch to Tauros when she tries to jump in.
Also Blizzard is definitely better. Thunder Wave is better than hoping for a Freeze and can catch other things that try to switch in (namely Chansey), so the Freezing bit is pretty pointless. Blizzard also 3HKOs, whereas Ice Beam rarely does, and with Starmie's CH chance, that does make a big difference.
Basing things off of your approach to the game, I think you need to learn how to read your opponent much better. You shouldn't be worried about Paralyzing things as if they become immortal after. Take some risks and pressure the opponent, and then Paralysis is awesome like it's supposed to be.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 4, 2013 22:57:23 GMT -8
Also Blizzard is definitely better. Thunder Wave is better than hoping for a Freeze and can catch other things that try to switch in (namely Chansey), so the Freezing bit is pretty pointless. Well, all of this depends on whether you want to paralyse Chansey or freeze it. If you're planning on paralysing Chansey, then Thunder Waving first turn is ideal. If you're planning on freezing it, then Ice Beam first turn is ideal. I mean, if Chansey comes in and gets frozen first turn, I'm not exactly going to be shedding many tears about the fact that I didn't hit Egg with it. |
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Post by t3h Icy on Feb 4, 2013 23:26:53 GMT -8
Why go with something inconsistent like Freezing when Paralysis is guaranteed?
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Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 5, 2013 0:05:31 GMT -8
Why go with something inconsistent like Freezing when Paralysis is guaranteed? Because freezing is more effective than paralysis? |
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Post by lilith on Feb 5, 2013 8:30:57 GMT -8
Why go with something inconsistent like Freezing when Paralysis is guaranteed? Because freezing is more effective than paralysis? i think it's worth considering that a team of paralyzed zam, 3 chipped physicals, sleeping eggy, and frozen chansey is in a great position to sweep 6 pokemon that all got shuffled around, chipped, and paralyzed while trying to land sleep and freeze. i'm totally exaggerating here but i've certainly played games where my play looked way too much like that. when i try really hard to land a particular status on a particular target, i often lose to prediction. even in chansey mirrors even if i want to use ice beam on chansey for a bit, i don't like to let the "risk" of paralyzing it (and making it easier for snorlax to eat) stop me from using twave after around 1-2 turns to try to paralyze their snorlax on the switch. if i'm losing, i might wait longer to twave coz i'm really depending on freeze to win. but i'll still want to guess twave at some point coz my opponent also knows that i am really depending on freeze to win. others can confirm if i'm super crazy here i guess. but leaving paralyzed chansey in against unparalyzed chansey is definitely still a big risk for both players. also, i think twaving chansey with starmie encourages your opponent to also twave (in case snorlax switches in and chansey FPs), which you could then absorb with your own chansey (or it FPs and you're ahead by a turn and probably get to do damage with snorlax). i generally prefer 25% to get to body slam something over 10% to freeze something but also 90% to have a forced switch where i definitely lose a turn, unless i'm already notably behind. tl;dr fissure dugtrio meh |
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Post by t3h Icy on Feb 5, 2013 9:10:41 GMT -8
Because freezing is more effective than paralysis? That's a really dumb idea to be honest. The difference in Paralysis and non-Paralysis is a huge deal for a lot of match-ups, and just general gameplay. Freezing happens 10% of the time, so you're throwing out a good start 9/10 times, and I like to win more than a tenth of my games personally. I mean, if you're going solely for what's more effective regardless of chances, why don't you use Thunder on every Pokemon, and use Pokemon with higher max potential than Chansey and Starmie like Zapdos and Dodrio in their place? Fill your team with fast Pokemon like Jolteon and Aerodactyl that can speedy sweep teams on very, very rare occasions. You're going to hold yourself back as a player if you go for unnecessary risks all the time. Learn prediction and proper planning and management of your Pokemon. Don't play with the RNG only if you want to improve to a decent level. No offense. |
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Feb 5, 2013 11:48:26 GMT -8
That's one thing I've noticed with newer PO players - they LOVE playing to win on freezes. Not only is it usually not successful, but it also makes for boring, stale gameplay.
I paralyze Chansey and beat it up with Snorlax and Rhydon. I don't want to reduce myself to a player that wants to win based on a freeze war - not only because it's not a great general strategy but because it's boring.
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Post by t3h Icy on Feb 5, 2013 18:26:25 GMT -8
Maybe I need to make another appearance and give PO a beatdown again. ;D I swear, the stuff I read posted here now makes me think there are no good players left and the metagame is devolving into what it would be if prediction was non-existant.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 5, 2013 18:46:06 GMT -8
Don't play with the RNG only if you want to improve to a decent level. No offense. Aren't you the guy who obsessively calculates exact odds in all sorts of unlikely situations? The fact is that there are a lot of things in RBY with Ice-type attacks (Chansey, Starmie, Lapras, Cloyster, Jynx), and switching Chansey into them is a risk if and only if Chansey isn't already statused (well, unless you already have something frozen, but that's hardly ideal). Hardly anyone uses Fire Blast or Toxic, so the least bad status for it to be hit with is paralysis. I mean, if I can make the opposing Chansey switch into Starmie 10 times over the course of a game, I've either got the choice of using Thunder Wave once and then doing nothing to it all the other times, or use Ice Beam every time and get a 65% chance of freezing it and opening the game up for my special attackers. Now, maybe that is a sign of heavily defensive play on my part. Maybe I am one of those players that everyone hates because I love to stall games out to 150 turns and make their victories taste as bitter as defeat. Maybe it's not the way you like to play, and I acknowledge that if you're playing aggressively, immediate Chansey paralysis is usually better than playing to freeze. But stall play is viable in RBY, and calling me a terrible player won't change that. |
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Post by t3h Icy on Feb 5, 2013 18:59:23 GMT -8
Sure, but that's because I've gone over all the basics to death, and like to write about all sorts of obscure details and situations to add in more information. I have a ~200 page guide on all the bread and butter here: www.gamefaqs.com/gameboy/367023-pokemon-red-version/faqs/54432, though it's a bit outdated so I wouldn't totally recommend it as much as before. There are definitely a lot of Ice users in the game that can potentially Freeze Chansey, but those are all losing match-ups mostly because she has Thunderbolt. Starmie for example will usually get beaten down fast and has to keep up with Recover as the Thunderbolts come in. Of course, Starmie isn't absolutely terrible if Chansey is Paralyzed, but then Freezing isn't possible. A similar situation for the others, except instead of healing, they die. Sure, occasionally you'll get your Freeze, but if the majority of the time you're basically sending out Pokemon to die without doing anything effective (non-permanent damage, or status, or pressure, or anything), then you're fighting 6v5 or worse. Chansey is by no means an immortal wall and there are plenty of ways through her without Freezing. Forcing Chansey into Starmie that many times? Don't you think the opponent will pick up on what you're doing? And even if Chansey is their best option in each case, what exactly would you be doing that would want the opponent to switch out. Starmie likewise doesn't just have one way to be taken down. Instead of spamming Ice Beam/Blizzard each time you think Chansey is coming in, why not go to Snorlax or Tauros instead to do something more useful more consistently? Thunder Wave isn't supposed to be the key to for winning the same 1v1, it's for helping other Pokemon. Synergy! Paralyze Pokemon with Alakazam, Starmie, Chansey, and others, and then take them out with the stronger Pokemon. You're not forced into any particular match-up and if you can help prep for your switch(es) later on, that means your killers won't be taking as much damage as they jump in and while they attack. And by all means, play to win. I've deliberately ran games for 100s of turns if it gives me the best chance to win, but those cases are very rare; usually when both players' sweepers got taken out early somehow. In general, stalling and defensive play just doesn't work well in RBY. Garrin Red was quite possibly the best defensive player I've ever known and even he had only moderate success (though a very solid player skillwise). |
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Post by WaterWizard on Feb 5, 2013 21:22:44 GMT -8
Magic, If you can get me to 150 turns I will very impressed. Defensive play is definitely fun and can be rewarding if done correctly. Icy isn't trying to belittle you; he talks trash to spur you on to excellence... Show him what you're made of and you'll shut him up!  WW |
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Post by t3h Icy on Feb 5, 2013 21:33:55 GMT -8
;D
If you want to continue this discussion and whatnot, feel free to make a thread somewhere or something, since this went way off-topic, lol.
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