More on Tiers (5)

[WaterWizard]

So, I've been thinking...

maybe we should scrap the Ban Tier idea (except for the Mew/Mewtwo Ubers tier).

I realized that BL was clearly not made as a ban tier for UU. That's impossible.

So, let's just do this:

Ubers
OverUsed
Borderline
UnderUsed
NeverUsed

All of them are competitive. BL will no longer be a ban tier.

Articuno and Jolteon go to OU.
Keep the existing groupings. Make adjustments accordingly.

This will satisfy UnderBoss, and Crystal as well, I think. All it does is acknowledge that the Borderlines are not pokes from UU. They're the next best group of pokemon after the OverUsed.

Comments?

[t3h Icy]

See, this is how tiers should be done: have everything legal and begin to work on them. Mew and Mewtwo are far superior to anything so they're put in Ubers, and then you find out what Pokemon are OU. From there, you find what other Pokemon are moderately viable in OU and put them in BL, like Dugtrio, Kingler and Dodrio. And then you repeat the process, scaling how effective Pokemon are in OU and placing them in either UU or NU.

Tiers should be based on how effective they are against the main Pokemon, not others within the same tier. Sure it leaves some Pokemon unviable for any level of play, but some Pokemon like Golbat and Onix don't have it in them to be useful. Creating tiers so all Pokemon can be used somewhere is dumb.

An example is the Smash Bros Brawl tiers. Often at tournaments they have Low Tier events, but the tiers were made based on how effective they are against everything, and not just each other. Sure, Ike is dominant in Low Tier events, but that's because he happens to be useful against the other ones, but he's absolutely horrible against anything High Tier or above.

And I think we need to revamp everything and start over.

[posthuman]

Brawl tiers aren't quite the same as Brawl is 1v1, but it's somewhat similar.

I'm happy with this 5 tier system. It keeps the amount of tiers to a manageable number while allowing many Pokémon to be viable in their own tier.

[subsmoke]

Yeah I like the idea of doing the tiers on effectiveness. The only problem is that's an opinion so there could be arguments of what belongs where. If it's done by usage then you don't have that to worry about. But then if it's done by usage you have to worry about unbalanced tiers. Machamp and Seaking are both hardly ever used but Machamp would kill Seaking. So the only choice I see is to either have an NU ban tier or do the tiers on effectiveness.

[LolitaCute]

Jun 9, 2010 11:31:49 GMT -8 t3h Icy said:

See, this is how tiers should be done: have everything legal and begin to work on them. Mew and Mewtwo are far superior to anything so they're put in Ubers, and then you find out what Pokemon are OU. From there, you find what other Pokemon are moderately viable in OU and put them in BL, like Dugtrio, Kingler and Dodrio. And then you repeat the process, scaling how effective Pokemon are in OU and placing them in either UU or NU.

Tiers should be based on how effective they are against the main Pokemon, not others within the same tier. Sure it leaves some Pokemon unviable for any level of play, but some Pokemon like Golbat and Onix don't have it in them to be useful. Creating tiers so all Pokemon can be used somewhere is dumb.

An example is the Smash Bros Brawl tiers. Often at tournaments they have Low Tier events, but the tiers were made based on how effective they are against everything, and not just each other. Sure, Ike is dominant in Low Tier events, but that's because he happens to be useful against the other ones, but he's absolutely horrible against anything High Tier or above.

And I think we need to revamp everything and start over.

i agree with this

some pokemon will always be shit no matter how many banlists you create, trying to make everything 100% balanced is futile. its best to just have 5/6 tiers imo

[Inf]

Pokémon tiers have always been like this, and I think that 5 tiers is the maximum we could have. BL can be competitive though, so making it a "real" tier (since it was only a ban list) is ok imo.
As for Jolteon and Articuno, I'm still skeptical.

[Dexter]

Yeah Jolteon and Articuno are not OU. No ifs ands or buts. They aren't even broken in "bl", articuno is still walled by waters and jolteon by grounds no matter what tier you're in.

[t3h Icy]

Would you say Zapdos, Persian and Starmie aren't OU material then? =)

[Dexter]

The fact that they're easily countered was more of an argument for why they aren't broken in the tiers below OU, not as a reason they aren't OU. Yes, I consider Starmie, Zappy, and Persian OU

also this is my last post on tiers, I swear. I don't care what you guys do with them >_>

[WaterWizard]

Just because a Pokemon is walled by 1 or 2 on a team doesn't make it inferior. Eggy is walled by Lapras and Zapdos, and loses to Chansey, Alakazam, and Starmie. Yet he's stilll useful. Persian is totally walled by Gengar. Gengar is walled by Alakazam and Eggy. But these pokemon are still very useful. Articuno is super effective against 2/6 on a team (Eggy and Golem) and also beats Tauros. That's rather OU in my opinion. Jolteon comes in after a knock out and can kill a Starmie/Lapras, or a 40% Tauros/Alakazam. No one else can do that. He only runs from Golem and sometimes Chansey (though Chansey is screwed if she's already paralyzed and Jolteon predicts and lands a CH double kick). I don't understand why there is doubt about these two being OU.

Articuno is resisted by one pokemon on an OU team (the water pokemon, and the on the rare occasion that Jynx is on the team, that would be two). That makes Articuno less resisted than Alakazam, who is walled by Eggy, Chansey, Slowbro, Starmie, and Alakazam. Do you realize that that is 3-5 out of 6 pokes on a team? yeah...

please come up with a convincing argument as to why Articuno isn't OU, and then we'll talk. Same for Jolteon...

[Crystal_]

I am going to repeat that Articuno and Jolteon have NOT been used enough in OU so far to be OU.

Pokemon are moderately viable in OU and put them in BL, like Dugtrio, Kingler and Dodrio. And then you repeat the process, scaling how effective Pokemon are in OU and placing them in either UU or NU.

O.O is all I can say.

[Underboss]

"All of them are competitive. BL will no longer be a ban tier." - WaterWizard
I agree with this statement. All tiers should be competitive, yes. But each tier also serves a secondary function being the ban tier of the tier below. So BL would still be the ban tier of UU, but OU would be the ban tier of BL. This makes sense because you play the BL metagame by banning Uber and OU, just like you play the UU metagame by banning Uber, OU, and BL. I think in the end 5 tiers will be enough.

Let me give a concrete example. Everyone would agree that UU is a competitive tier. But under a 5 tier system, it would also have to be the ban tier of NU. Therefore, the pokemon Poliwhirl must be placed in UU because he would be overly dominate the NU tier. Poliwhirl would obviously almost never be actually used in UU, but he would be in that tier none the less.

Perhaps we could put an asterisk (*) next to pokemon like Poliwhirl that are in a tier only for the protection of the tier below. IF this community decided, for example, that Jolteon and Articuno are overly dominating BL, then we would move them to OU even if they aren't used that much in OU. I would argue the only reason that we keep Slowbro in OU these days is because he would destroy every other tier. He's barely used in OU anymore.

Every tier is a ban tier of the tier below it. And finally I would add that if a pokemon is used a lot in one tier, then he will most likely be overly dominate in the lower tiers.

I don't think that Kingler, when you really look at him, has much usefulness in OU or even BL and in the long run won't be used in those tiers. He dies too easily from special attacks, and shouldn't really have time to set up if people know what to do to counter him. I think that success with Kingler and other pokemon like him arise mostly from the fact that people don't expect him and haven't studied him in the same way they have studied the OU 14. He belongs firmly in UU because he doesn't overcentralize there and I think he doesn't dominate in UU for the same reasons he doesn't do well in BL or OU.

Another example is Vaporeon. Vaporeon does well in BL as a special wall of sorts, but in the end doesn't have the quite the oomph to be considered BL and thus too good for UU. Vap's easily countered in BL and somewhat counterable in UU. However, it should come as no surprise that Vap is near the top of UU and might be considered by some to be overly dominating that tier.

When it comes to Jolteon and Articuno, I would consider them to be highly potent pokemon. I have now come to the conclusion that they actually over-dominate the BL metagame a bit, and the metagame feels more balanced when they are removed. For the same reasons (high stats, good typing, good movesets) I would consider them moderately viable in OU and thus belong in OU.

I guess the problem with pokemon like Jolteon and Vaporeon is that they are in the grey zone of usefulness between tiers, and thus it become a very subjective and personal experience based decision to place them in either in the upper tier or the lower tier. If you place them in the upper tier, then they get recognition as being good and useful by being promoted, but then get banned from use in the lower tier, which others might disagree with. But if you place them in the lower tier, some will think you are demeaning them by keeping them down but others will be happy because they will be allowed to play in more metagames.

It's a shade of grey decision, and in the end it will be impossible to please everyone with decisions like placing Jolteon in OU or in BL or placing Poliwhirl in UU or in NU.

[t3h Icy]

Jun 10, 2010 2:39:18 GMT -8 Crystal_ said:

I am going to repeat that Articuno and Jolteon have NOT been used enough in OU so far to be OU.

It doesn't matter how much they're used if they're mathematically superior to most Pokemon. Besides, they've been tested and shown they are capable of holding their own in OU, though perhaps they are on the lower side of OU.

[WaterWizard]

The reason Jolteon and Articuno are moved into OU isn't because they dominate BL (even though they do), it's because they belong in OU. They are powerful enough. That's all that matters. Plus they're used enough.

GGfan already posted on potential of Jolt vs potential of Persian. And I posted on Articuno vs Alakazam.

[Underboss]

Dominating BL is a measure of their power, and I personally think they do overpower BL. And I thin they are strong enough now to be considered OU.

[Underboss]

Jun 9, 2010 15:18:22 GMT -8 Inf said:

Pokémon tiers have always been like this, and I think that 5 tiers is the maximum we could have. BL can be competitive though, so making it a "real" tier (since it was only a ban list) is ok imo.
As for Jolteon and Articuno, I'm still skeptical.

If you are skeptical btw, you should talk about it on the Disputed Placement List:
rby2k10.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=td&action=display&thread=161