Never Ever Used tier

[Isa]

So, if we were to create a tier with the lowest of the low, the Never Ever Used tier (NEU), what Pokémon would be there, and what NU Pokémon would be banned? Help me out.

For reference, here's the list of NU allowed Pokémon.

SPOILER: Click to show

Aerodactyl
Arbok
Beedrill
Butterfree
Ditto
Electrode
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Flareon
Golbat
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Lickitung
Machamp
Magmar
Magneton
Marowak
Muk
Omastar
Onix
Parasect
Pidgeot
Primeape
Rapidash
Scyther
Seadra
Seaking
Vileplume
Weezing
Wigglytuff
All NFEs bar Kadabra, Haunter, Graveler and Poliwhirl

[Isa]

I think this is easier to construct if we start out by banning NU Pokémon rather than stating that Pokémon X is NEU.

My banlist would be something similar to...
Abra
Staryu
Omastar
Fearow
Machamp
Seadra
Rhyhorn
Rapidash
Magmar
---
Hitmonlee
Marowak
Muk
Weezing
Wigglytuff
Exeggcute
---
Magneton?
Electrode?
Dragonair?
Ivysaur?
Weepinbell?
Parasect?

Those above the first line, I think should be banned pretty swiftly. There's a case for allowing the fire types, perhaps, but I think they should be banned.

The ones in the middle, I am not sure about. They have nice power (except Wigglytuff, who has great coverage and good bulk) but they don't feel even close to broken or overcentralizing NU to me, so I'm a bit uncertain.

The ones marked with question marks are decently strong NU Pokémon, but I cannot say if they'd dominate or not in a metagame without the Pokémon above them. Parasect is probably the one with the best argument for a ban out of those, but for the sake of the argument, I'm allowing it in NU. =p

Thoughts?

[jorgen]

After all those bans, are there more than like 10 fully-evolved Pokemon left? I think NU is about as low as you can feasibly go in RBY unless you really want a reason to call something like Parasect "dominant".

EDIT: It's actually 16 FEs left, if you count all the bans with question marks. And some of those are, like, Ditto and Golbat. NU is already dominated to the brim by NFEs, I think when you get to that point you honestly stop making conventional tiers and look to other gimmicks - like, say, middle cup, or an all-NFE tier.

[Isa]

Middle Cup would work if everything just didn't SUCK bar a few Pokémon dominating the meta. Kadabra, Graveler, Haunter, Poliwhirl (Amnesia) on every team and then what? Machoke? Ivysaur?

NFE only would be decent, but requires ban of the first four mentioned again, so it's basically NU - and then you have almost legitimate NU teams. Dragonair/Abra/Staryu/Ivysaur/Rhyhorn/Exeggcute wouldn't be bad. It doesn't feel like a new tier.

[magic9mushroom]

Where was that list of RBY hierarchies again?

Here.

Maybe this could help?

[Zilch]

Feb 16, 2013 10:20:48 GMT -8 Isa said:

NFE only would be decent, but requires ban of the first four mentioned again, so it's basically NU - and then you have almost legitimate NU teams. Dragonair/Abra/Staryu/Ivysaur/Rhyhorn/Exeggcute wouldn't be bad. It doesn't feel like a new tier.

I'd much rather play Petit Cup, to be honest, only without the height/weight restrictions (i.e. level boosted Little Cup): Total levels cannot exceed 160, and everything must be between levels 25-30. Granted, I'm sure everyone and their mother would have a L30 Abra in there, but I digress.

We don't have to make every Pokemon viable through tiering, lest we have a metagame where Caterpie is a viable option for a team.

[Dexter]

what is parasect doing all the way down here?
Machamp, wigglytuff, electrode too.

What is wrong with you people not using these amazing pkmn?

[Nyara?]

Like Zilch said, I could play Petit Cup, or at least a sort of Monotype Cup banning Alakazam/Kadabra and Starmie/Slowbro rather than create an Never Ever Used Tier, all the Pokémon of NEU are actually viable (some not the best, but totally usable) on some way or other on NU, so, it doesn't even have too many sense to create an other tier for those Pokémon at all.

[magic9mushroom]

Feb 17, 2013 2:25:28 GMT -8 Nyara? said:

Like Zilch said, I could play Petit Cup, or at least a sort of Monotype Cup banning Alakazam/Kadabra and Starmie/Slowbro rather than create an Never Ever Used Tier, all the Pokémon of NEU are actually viable (some not the best, but totally usable) on some way or other on NU, so, it doesn't even have too many sense to create an other tier for those Pokémon at all.

Caterpie.

[Isa]

If someone makes Petit Cup easy for me to understand, I'm all for it. I don't know the requirements. The Level 20-25/50-55 requirements appeal to me, but the selection of Pokémon confuse me.

[Nyara?]

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Petit_Cup

It's basically Little Cup with Level Restriction of 25-30 (thus, with some movepool restrictions), with team size restriction of 3 Pokémon per side, and with Farfetch'd, and without Mankey, Tentacool, Ponyta, Slowpoke, Duduo, Seel, Grimer, Drowzee, Rhyhorn, and Staryu. With Wrap banned, I'm not even seeing the need to ban something else, just Abra, and we can even play around with Abra without any major trouble, as he can't learn Recover, so, banning Abra may not even be necessary.

About the movepool restriction, it's easy; Pokémon TM compatibility + all that he can learns at level 1-25, we can just ban the moves learned on 25+ levels, or we can set the movepool restriction to the level 27 or 30, too. Or make a more complicated restriction depending of the level of each Pokémon, but that's more complex.

[Dexter]

Dragon Rage?

[Nyara?]

Feb 17, 2013 18:37:22 GMT -8 Dexter said:

Dragon Rage?

Only Charmander, Growlithe, Magikarp (via event), and Dratini can learn it, and nobody is OHKOed at level 25-30 by Dragon Rage (not even Diglett), anyway, but it is still a powerful move, dunno if ban worthy or not, that should be tested, I think, but I don't think it's necessary to ban Dragon Rage, as most of the Pokémon are not even 2HKOed by Dragon Rage (anything with 50 Base HP is not 2HKOed at level 25, Base 40 at level 27, Base 30 at level 29, Base 25 - Abra - at level 30), except Diglett and Magikarp.

[Zilch]

Dragon Rage, while certainly very powerful, is not broken as far as I'm concerned in Petit Cup, though you can make a case for it being too powerful on Dratini if you're allowing Wrap. Agility/Wrap/Dragon Rage/filler, anyone?

[WaterWizard]

Splitting NU into two tiers would either involve moving them all to NEU and then banning pokes back to NU, or just moving the lower half and then tweaking a bit. If I had to guess, it would eventually look something like this:

NeverUsed

Abra
Aerodactyl
Butterfree
Electrode
Exeggcute
Flareon
Gastly
Ivysaur
Lickitung
Machamp
Magmar
Magneton
Marowak
Muk
Omastar
Onix
Rapidash
Rhyhorn
Seadra
Staryu
Vileplume
Weepinbell
Weezing
Wigglytuff

NeverEverUsed

Arbok
Beedrill
Ditto
Farfetch'd
Golbat
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Parasect
Pidgeot
Primeape
Scyther
Seaking
(All NFEs not previously listed)

One can see right away that Geodude (if he's not promoted), Kabuto, or Omanyte would have to play in NEU otherwise Pidgeot and the SD pokes run wild. It looks like a messy tier, with stage one NFEs all over the place. Pikachu!

I'd want to consult Zilch about minor adjustments, but I'm pretty sure this is generally right.

[Isa]

I don't think the NU tier should contain every Pokémon ever used, just like Kingler, Hypno and Cloyster, despite being used every now and then, are not OU.

Also, Butterfree in NU but Parasect/Hitmonlee in NEU?

[Zilch]

Just glancing at that list, WW, and I think that Slowpoke, Drowzee, Parasect, and possibly Scyther should be in the upper tier.

[WaterWizard]

Feb 18, 2013 20:55:09 GMT -8 Zilch said:

Just glancing at that list, WW, and I think that Slowpoke, Drowzee, Parasect, and possibly Scyther should be in the upper tier.

Yeah, I wondered about those two SD users and Pidgeot's STAB HB, but I think the stage one Rocks should be able to keep them in check. We'd have to experiment. As for those basic Psychics, you might be right again; they're much less common than Staryu, Gastly, and Abra, though, and probably wouldn't centralize in NEU. But IDK. Experimentation is needed!

[Zilch]

I've used Slowpoke in NU, and he can hold his own surprisingly well as a mini-Slowbro. Still, you'll definitely want any Electrics or Razor Leaf users taken care beforehand.