Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Feb 25, 2013 7:36:51 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 25, 2013 7:36:51 GMT -8
Basically I wanted to continue the discussion that got black-holed.
Two things I wanted to say. In the thread, Icy and Isa were saying it's better to paralyse chansey and just get physical pokemon like rhydon in on it, as if it was a no-brainer.
It definitely isn't a no-brainer. The first thing I do when someone paralyses my chansey is reflect, and then usually softboil after that. This normally deters physicals from coming in. The only way snorlax can reliably break through refletc chansey is trading through blowing up, and tauros doesn't want to risk early paralysis trying to crit through reflect. If you don't want to trade, it means you're going to have to try stall it out with specials, so it's not as easy as just paralysing it and getting a physical in on it.
The second thing I wanted to say is with regards to freezing, I think it's not something you should really play for or base your strategy around. Going for freezes is really only something you do as an adaption to the situation (eg. their chansey reflects and you don't have alakazam to scare it out). If you want to freeze something, I think a better idea is to stack ice on your team, and freezes will come as a result of your standard play. I've gone from using one ice move to four, and I've noticed I get a lot more freezes now, with only like 10% coming from actual freeze wars.
That's just my opinion on the freeze meta, I could be wrong. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on freezing too.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 25, 2013 11:32:50 GMT -8
Post by lilith on Feb 25, 2013 11:32:50 GMT -8
i go for freeze (or moar commonly, bluff it and then try to hit twave on the switch) but only when i'm significantly behind.
also imo, reflect chansey is pretty good at getting blown up on and/or losing matchups that chansey is normally good at...
if i'm putting reflect on something, i'd rather put it on zam coz he loses a lot less versatility by running reflect (and has a much better shot at actually beating tauros with it)
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 25, 2013 11:57:14 GMT -8
Post by cheese on Feb 25, 2013 11:57:14 GMT -8
The first thing I would say is obviously many variants of Chansey don't have Reflect (although it seems to be considerably more common these days, and for good reason). In which case throwing a Snorlax into a paralysed Chansey is a great idea, even if it will likely end up paralysed as a result. Of course even if they do have Reflect, a FP on the switch (or alternatively when they try to Softboiled) can swing things in your favour. And if that doesn't work, you can either try and Explode them to death (which shouldn't be too impossible) or switch in something like Zam to force Chansey out for now, allowing you to potentially get the upper hand later with an unaralysed physical. Freezing is generally a risky strategy, especially so as Ice pokemon will usually die to Chansey before they get the job done. The main problem with paralysing Chansey is that it hurts you in Chansey vs Chansey, but it's not like Chansey is that hard to switch into. Of course Chansey is annying as hell, so for inpatient types like me there's always the option to Explode on it ASAP.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 25, 2013 12:40:13 GMT -8
Post by Agent Syrup on Feb 25, 2013 12:40:13 GMT -8
Of course Chansey is annying as hell, so for inpatient types like me there's always the option to Explode on it ASAP. Note to self: bring in Gengar whenever I'm fighting Cheese.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Feb 25, 2013 15:18:22 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 25, 2013 15:18:22 GMT -8
Lilith- Reflect alakazam is meant to be a late-game sweeper. If you don't run seismic toss or kinesis on it, specials will come in and just stall your psychic, and you will take paralysis in the process. It's not a matter of putting it on one or the other because they have different roles. If you put it on alakazam, you're looking to keep it unparalysed so it can sweep. If you put it on chansey, you're looking to deter physicals from coming in, and are relying on another pokemon to scare starmie with an electric or grass attack. Alakazam isn't lke chansey in the sense that it isn't meant to sit behind a reflect mid-game, so it's not a matter of choosing who gets reflect because they use it differently.
Cheese- There's no doubt that reflect chansey can get done in by FPs and whatnot, but I think the fact you need luck to beat it shows how much better it is to run reflect than thunderbolt, and why paralysing chansey isn't always a good idea. If you knew their chansey had reflect, you probably wouldn't look to paralyse it.
If chansey is running thunderbolt instead of seismic toss, ice beam+rest jynx can try to freeze it without worrying about getting freezed in return. It's slow and risky though. If chansey spams thunderbolt, jynx will only be able to get one ice beam off before having to rest again, and if chansey nails a crit it will break through her rest loop. They can switch out, leaving you with a sleeping jynx, but a sleeping jynx really isn't that.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 26, 2013 4:16:40 GMT -8
Post by cheese on Feb 26, 2013 4:16:40 GMT -8
I agree that Reflect is (generally) better than Thunderbolt. I don't think that paralysing Reflect Chansey is a bad idea though. Obviously you want to hit it with some status and after sleep I would say paralysis is the best option more often than not. Obviously it depends on the circumstances, but your other option is to go for a Freeze which is also rather luck based.
Does anyone use Ice Beam+Rest Jynx? Jynx isn't that common for starters, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one with that moveset before.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 26, 2013 4:28:21 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 26, 2013 4:28:21 GMT -8
I agree that Reflect is (generally) better than Thunderbolt. I don't think that paralysing Reflect Chansey is a bad idea though. Obviously you want to hit it with some status and after sleep I would say paralysis is the best option more often than not. Obviously it depends on the circumstances, but your other option is to go for a Freeze which is also rather luck based. Does anyone use Ice Beam+Rest Jynx? Jynx isn't that common for starters, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one with that moveset before. Rest would seem to be a bad idea on a Pokemon which is 2HKOed by basically every physical attack...
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Feb 26, 2013 5:16:21 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 26, 2013 5:16:21 GMT -8
It's not.
Jynx is usually the dedicated sleep absorber anyway.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 26, 2013 6:34:48 GMT -8
Post by cheese on Feb 26, 2013 6:34:48 GMT -8
Rest Jynx is pretty hard to pull off, but it's not as ridiculous as it initially seems because there's usually quite a bit that it can safely switch into (Chansey, Starmie, Eggy etc.).
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 26, 2013 18:16:22 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 26, 2013 18:16:22 GMT -8
Starmie can 3HKO with Surf, Hydro Pump, or Hyper Beam.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Feb 26, 2013 22:12:23 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 26, 2013 22:12:23 GMT -8
If starmie is running one of those moves, then it's not running blizzard and then it can't touch exeggutor.
Besides, no one cares about a starmie like that in freeze wars because it can't freeze anything. Just go to chansey and force it out.
The point of rest jynx is having something that can attempt a freeze war without being able to get frozen. It's also a good answer to reflect chanseys that are happy to just sit there spamming ice beam until something gets frozen.
Rest jynx has two purposes really. One is to attempt freeze wars if it has ice beam, the other is to block sleep. Jynx is always a lead, so it's either sleeping or getting slept. If jynx is actually awake to be able to rest, it's unlikely they've slept something on your team. Rest jynx is a decent sleep blocker because a lot of sleeper sets can't actually do much damage to it.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Freeze
Feb 26, 2013 22:28:51 GMT -8
Post by Isa on Feb 26, 2013 22:28:51 GMT -8
If starmie is running one of those moves, then it's not running blizzard and then it can't touch exeggutor. Offensive Starmie. Hydro Pump/Blizzard/TBolt/Recover. It's not uncommon. I run Rest on Jynx a lot nowadays simply because there's a lack of better moves on him. Counter is neat but not if you take damage, and most people check for it either way. Mimic is even more unreliable than Rest. Rest allows you to wake up on Chansey, most Starmie variants, Reflect Zam, Exeggutor without Double-Edge, another Jynx, Lapras without BSlam/HBeam and Articuno. At least two of these are usually seen on a team, and it's not too rare to see up towards four of them.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Feb 27, 2013 0:06:49 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 27, 2013 0:06:49 GMT -8
It doesn't really matter how common that set is, it's not really a problem because starmie is the easiest pokemon in the meta to switch into.
A jynx that has just rested will never stay in on starmie anyway because it can't rest loop+ice due to being slower. The only time jynx will stay in is if starmie switches in late in the rest loop and jynx wants to take a hit and wake up.
I don't really mind switching out a sleeping jynx because if my jynx was awake in the first place, it was probably because I won the sleep war and nothing on my team had been slept yet.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 27, 2013 12:35:05 GMT -8
Post by lilith on Feb 27, 2013 12:35:05 GMT -8
It doesn't really matter how common that set is, it's not really a problem because starmie is the easiest pokemon in the meta to switch into. every forced chansey switch is a high cost, and nothing else switches happily into that set afaik
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Feb 27, 2013 16:00:32 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 27, 2013 16:00:32 GMT -8
Alakazam switches into and doesn't fear it because it doesn't have thunder wave.
In theory nothing else can really switch in, but so many pokemon can switch into it if they predict correctly that it'd be pretty hard for starmie to guess correctly each time.
Regardless, the context in which this discussion began was a freeze war. Chances are you will still have your chansey in a freeze war anyway.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 27, 2013 17:27:27 GMT -8
Post by jorgenforgotpass on Feb 27, 2013 17:27:27 GMT -8
I try to play where I don't rely on a Chansey freeze war, but instead use opposing Chansey as an opportunity to get Lax going. It allows for surprisingly high win percentages from really predictable play, although in high-tier matches it's crucial to get the thinking cap on to have Lax in that para'd Chansey matchup. Because I like to be cavalier with Lax, especially with freely switching it into whatever Chansey might throw at it, I usually run Rest. Without Rest, Lax can get worn down. Also, Rest lets you stay in against Reflect Chansey and force it to try to freeze you since it can't just kill you.
That being said, I prefer having my own Chansey para'd in case a stall war is necessary or I need to switch it into repeated STAB Blizzards or I need to block Egg sleep and bait it into Exploding, all of which are more likely scenarios than needing that unpara'd Chansey for beating Goldon. However, I'm ass at actually getting Chansey to take baited Twaves because I never really bother actively playing for the stall war; my gameplan is usually just LAX SMASH.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 27, 2013 17:54:47 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 27, 2013 17:54:47 GMT -8
The point of rest jynx is having something that can attempt a freeze war without being able to get frozen. It's also a good answer to reflect chanseys that are happy to just sit there spamming ice beam until something gets frozen. Lapras or Cloyster is probably going to do a better job, since Lapras and Cloyster aren't hilariously vulnerable to a Lax switch-in.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Feb 27, 2013 18:12:43 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 27, 2013 18:12:43 GMT -8
Only if chansey isn't running thunderbolt, and if chansey isn't running thunderbolt then it'll just paralyse and go to starmie or whatever. Ok you forced chansey out, but you're pokemon got paralysed for just one switch-out.
Yes you can rest off the paralysis, but jynx is better for that. The waters aren't vulverable to physicals but they're vulnerable to specials. It's more important for your rester to be able to switch into specials because they're the status spreaders. Good players won't let you rest loop, your rester will be forced out. The reason why I use jynx to rest is because status spreaders have a harder time damaging it (depending on their movesets). I usually will have something like exeggutor or snorlax to be able to switch in to their snorlax or tauros that comes in on my jynx.
Jorgen- Restlax is actually a nice idea for reflect chansey now that you mention it. Although apart from being vulnerable to freeze, once it gives its set away something will come in to KO it in its rest loop and force it out. Still, resting snorlax is actually a really good switch in to chansey now that I think about it.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 28, 2013 0:02:00 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 28, 2013 0:02:00 GMT -8
You said "Reflect Chansey". I haven't seen any Reflect Chanseys with Thunderbolt.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Feb 28, 2013 1:25:30 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 28, 2013 1:25:30 GMT -8
That's true, they still have the problem of not being able to rest loop specials though.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 28, 2013 2:53:48 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 28, 2013 2:53:48 GMT -8
That's true, they still have the problem of not being able to rest loop specials though. Jynx is 3HKOed by most STAB Special attacks that aren't Ice or Psychic, and there are plenty of specials with physical attacks. Allow me to list: Exeggutor's Double-Edge is a guaranteed 3HKO. Zapdos's Drill Peck is a guaranteed 3HKO and possible 2HKO, and its Thunderbolt is also a 3HKO as is Jolteon's. Lapras's Body Slam or Surf can 3HKO, and Double-Edge certainly will. Chansey's Fire Blast (lol) will 2HKO if they both hit. Starmie's Surf can 3HKO, and so can 2xThunderbolt + Hyper Beam. Slowbro's Amnesia + 2x Surf is a guaranteed 3HKO. Razor Leaf is a guaranteed 3HKO. So yeah, you can rest-loop Alakazam, Chansey, Gengar, and maaaaybe Starmie, but that's all. And you've still got the problem of giving Tauros or Snorlax free switch-ins. EDIT: Also, unSTABbed Tbolt isn't a sure 3HKO on Lapras unless it's Gengar's.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 28, 2013 8:02:49 GMT -8
Post by jorgenforgotpass on Feb 28, 2013 8:02:49 GMT -8
Most of those special attacks that 3HKO Jynx don't matter, and the "few" specilaists Jynx Rest-loops are the most relevant.
The key reason why Rest Jynx is bad is because it's total Physical bait while sleeping. That's it. Other Rest users can tank a hit or two from, say, Snorlax in order to wake up and scare it out, but sleepy Jynx doesn't offer that luxury. You HAVE to switch out and give that Snorlax or Tauros a free hit, or just let Jynx die.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Feb 28, 2013 16:53:11 GMT -8
Post by Dre on Feb 28, 2013 16:53:11 GMT -8
But if something like lapras is resting then they won't send a physical in, they'll send in a special. Admittedly though, specials are much easier to switch in against.
I can see the benefit of a physically bulky rester (cloyster does it all the time). I guess it's a matter of what role you need to fill. My main concern is that if you lost the sleep war and have a physical rester. you have two pokemon asleep.
Jynx+ a counter pokemon could be an interesting combo though.
|
|
|
Freeze
Feb 28, 2013 23:26:37 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Feb 28, 2013 23:26:37 GMT -8
Jynx + Counter user won't work unless you get hit by Hyper Beam or the thing they hit Jynx with switches out.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Freeze
Mar 1, 2013 5:31:04 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by Dre on Mar 1, 2013 5:31:04 GMT -8
It'll work if they use snorlax instead of tauros. Obviously the counter user would be kinda bulky.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Freeze
Mar 1, 2013 8:20:35 GMT -8
Post by Isa on Mar 1, 2013 8:20:35 GMT -8
Rest Jynx + Counter Snorlax. There you go.
|
|
|
Freeze
Mar 1, 2013 9:34:48 GMT -8
Post by lilith on Mar 1, 2013 9:34:48 GMT -8
That being said, I prefer having my own Chansey para'd in case a stall war is necessary or I need to switch it into repeated STAB Blizzards or I need to block Egg sleep and bait it into Exploding, all of which are more likely scenarios than needing that unpara'd Chansey for beating Goldon. fwiw, benefits of unparalyzed chansey: 1. consistently paralyzes tauros without having to roll for fp (!) 2. consistently paralyzes snorlax after it switches in, even at low hp 3. beats rhydon, beats or trades with golem (and #2 and #3 combine to create a really unfortunate 50-50 37.5%-37.5%-<fp and just lose> situation for paralyzed chansey) 4. beats low hp paralyzed egg 5. doesnt afraid of anything rhydon is kind of a dork... but plenty of games come down to stopping tauros, and i'd much rather not have to roll for FP and also to not get critted. not to mention that paralyzed chansey is moar likely to already be dead by the time their tauros is out. if something needs to be paralyzed, better chansey than tauros, but that doesn't mean i want her paralyzed. (edit: the example i gave was totally dumb)
|
|
|
Freeze
Mar 1, 2013 12:24:57 GMT -8
Post by magic9mushroom on Mar 1, 2013 12:24:57 GMT -8
It'll work if they use snorlax instead of tauros. Obviously the counter user would be kinda bulky. Counter is decreased priority. So: Turn X: Starmie come back! Noobface sent out Snorlax! Dre's Jynx is fast asleep. Turn X+1: Jynx come back! Dre sent out Snorlax! Noobface's Snorlax used Body Slam! Turn X+2: Noobface's Snorlax used (an attack here)! Dre's Snorlax used Counter! The success or otherwise of the Counter is determined solely by what they used on Turn X+2, so you won't get to Counter the Body Slam that was meant for Jynx. The exceptions are if they Hyper Beamed or if they switched out - since Snorlax doesn't afraid of anything, you're actually probably more likely to pull it off if they sent in Tauros (since Tauros will usually avoid Snorlax fearing SD or paralysis).
|
|