jynx vs. zam openings

[lilith]

Alakazam used Thunder Wave!
Jynx used Lovely Kiss!
Alakazam fell asleep!

wut do?

what does the board think of jynx using psychic once here? i'd think psychic is often preferable on things that aren't chansey, excepting eggy, who is an unlikely switch, and zam himself. in particular, psychic does much better against lapras and doesn't miss, although a non-specfall psychic stops jynx from possibly being able to 2hko tauros and 3hko snorlax without a ch. psychic however still threatens snorlax (23-27%) and tauros (33-39%) with a high ch rate (18%) and a chance to specfall. also, i think that blizzard, blizzard, blizzard, ch blizzard, and counter combine to create enough fear that snorlax will switch in on full-hp jynx infrequently, even if jynx uses psychic sometimes. blizzard is moar threatening than psychic to sleeping zam, but staying in is also risky for zam anyway as something big and scary like snorlax could come in instead.

with psychic, jynx's chance to cause a specfall is 22.5%. against a chansey switch, jynx has the option of seeing if it works while taking no damage and switching out if it doesn't.

if jynx wants to stay in, she ordinarily has 6 turns to try to freeze chansey (switch, one softboiled, and 5 thunderbolts, one of which is a KO). using psychic without a specfall, this decreases to 5 turns, a drop from 34% to 29% chance to freeze. however, with a specfall, chansey is in a very difficult situation, whether or not jynx switches out. chansey will have to softboil quite frequently, will do less damage with thunderbolt, and becomes even easier to switch into. the (even greater) urgency to not get frozen also makes trying to twave a switch-in even riskier.

chansey's odds to ch on at least one of her first four thunderbolts are around 33%, and her odds to ch twice are negligible. if jynx has taken chip damage from the lead or chansey crits, thunderbolt will be a 4hko and the drop will be from 29% to 24%. also if jynx has taken any chip damage, she is in snorlax ohko range, making a snorlax switch moar viable and psychic therefore riskier. i'm not sure i'd really want to go for psychic except at full hp.

so umm, thoughts?

[Dre]

It should probably just blizzard. People would much rather take a spc drop than the freeze. The most common switch ins to jynx after zam is slept are probably starmie and chansey, who would prefer to take psychic.

[wasabi]

When facing a lead Jynx, I let it put my 'Zam to rest, and then I usually switch into lapras/articuno and try doing something.
Both can take Jynx's moves rather well and since they can't be slept could fight back. Usually if one expects blizzard you shouldn't switch into articuno unless you don't mind it being a bit crippled. Lapras provides that fear of paralyzing and articuno packs a punch. Though usually I end up knocking Jynxes out with tauros or Starmie x wx;

I haven't really gone up against many jynx's on PO, they're usually in real time with some of my buds.

[Isa]

You play on a Game Boy with your friends and use link cables?

[wasabi]

Yup. It's dreadfully slow x wx;
and it glitches sometimes too. But it's still fun nonetheless :3

[Isa]

Props to you for keeping it real.

[wasabi]

Thanks~ c:

We only got into the meta about 2 summers ago. And have been playing it non stop since then.
We play on stadium sometimes too but I hate the fact that hyper beam doesn't do what it's not supposed to, and sleep lasts very little.
Also a bunch of those other factors..

[magic9mushroom]

Well when I use Jynx and see lead Zam I'll usually switch out to Sing Chansey or maybe Egg if it has sleep (the main team I run Jynx on is my stall team). But I'm weird, lol.

[Dre]

Apr 8, 2013 22:34:32 GMT -8 wasabi said:

Thanks~ c:

We only got into the meta about 2 summers ago. And have been playing it non stop since then.
We play on stadium sometimes too but I hate the fact that hyper beam doesn't do what it's not supposed to, and sleep lasts very little.
Also a bunch of those other factors..

Did you EV train your pokemon?

But as Isa said, defs street-cred for reppin the cartridge.

[wasabi]

Apr 9, 2013 3:04:55 GMT -8 Dre said:

Apr 8, 2013 22:34:32 GMT -8 wasabi said:

Thanks~ c:

We only got into the meta about 2 summers ago. And have been playing it non stop since then.
We play on stadium sometimes too but I hate the fact that hyper beam doesn't do what it's not supposed to, and sleep lasts very little.
Also a bunch of those other factors..

Did you EV train your pokemon?

But as Isa said, defs street-cred for reppin the cartridge.

Haha yeah, 25x elite four for EVERY OU. And some other minor pokemon. Luckily I had x4 speed on my stadium 2.

Anywho sorry for derailing the thread ^^;

[Dre]

Is 25 times enough to max out? I did 30 for my Mewtwo (only had triple speed on PS1). I remember thinking I needed 30 for some reason. He had a max speed IV too. Outspeeding electrodes in R2 Stadium was pretty cool.

[magic9mushroom]

If you've already maxed out vitamins, then it should. 26 pokes, each with decent base stats (let's call it an average of 75) x 25 runthroughs is 48k-ish - with the 25k that you get from vitamins that'll reach 65k.

[Dre]

But can you use vitamins on all stats though? I thought you couldn't.

[magic9mushroom]

HP up for HP, Protein for Attack, Iron for Defense, Carbos for Speed, Calcium for Special.

The one that does need cloning is PP up, but you can't PP up through use anyway.

[Dre]

I know that, I meant that I thought you were only allowed to use a limited amount of vitamins per pokemon, and only on like two different stats.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 10, 2013 0:12:34 GMT -8 Dre said:

I know that, I meant that I thought you were only allowed to use a limited amount of vitamins per pokemon, and only on like two different stats.

Limited amount per stat, past which you have to get Stat Exp the hard way. Don't think there's a limit on the total until gen III though.

[jorgen]

You can use vitamins to boost stat experience no higher than 25,600. However, there's no rule saying that once you've hit vitamin limit for one stat, you can no longer use any vitamins.

[Dexter]

switch to snorlax

[jorgen]

Getting back to the topic of the thread and away from the in-game training derail, yes, switching to Snorlax is a fine solution. However, I'd probably avoid giving up a turn and just spam Blizzards with Jynx hoping to freeze a Chansey or something. Jynx isn't exactly a complicated Pokemon to use, it's mostly just sleep something and cheese it with STAB Blizzards.

[Dre]

Jynx is a bit more dynamic than you give it credit for. Ice beam+rest allows it to try freeze chansey. Jynx can rest loop chansey's thunderbolt and get one attack in before having to rest again, unless chansey crits. It's a good sleep absorber too because it can wake up on a lot of special pokemon. Sleeping jynx is also huge physical bait, which I used to think of as purely negative, but you can use that to your advantage.

It's definitely more dynamic than say, gengar or slowbro.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 16, 2013 20:53:04 GMT -8 Dre said:

Jynx is a bit more dynamic than you give it credit for. Ice beam+rest allows it to try freeze chansey. Jynx can rest loop chansey's thunderbolt and get one attack in before having to rest again, unless chansey crits. It's a good sleep absorber too because it can wake up on a lot of special pokemon. Sleeping jynx is also huge physical bait, which I used to think of as purely negative, but you can use that to your advantage.

It's definitely more dynamic than say, gengar or slowbro.

Because Gengar can't Rest-loop Lapras/Cloyster/Dragonite/Victreebel/Persian/Surflax... oh wait.

And because it can't take Explosions while sleeping... oh wait.

[jorgen]

Gengar frankly has no business running Rest, though. All of those threats are somewhat obscure and can be beaten by Gengar regardless of whether or not it has Rest, so it really gains nothing from having Rest in its set. Jynx is better able to out-stall and freeze Chansey by using Rest, which is something, although imo it's still a waste of a Jynx to try to stall with it.

Both Gengar and Jynx are good Sleep bait mostly because they're pretty fast. For what it's worth, Jynx is a bit more likely to wake up due to its Psychic resist, although Gengar has the perk of actually being useful (if only a little bit) while sleeping.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 17, 2013 4:09:58 GMT -8 jorgen said:

Gengar frankly has no business running Rest, though.

I know Gengar has no business running Rest. My point is that neither does Jynx. Having some viable Rest targets isn't enough to make Rest viable - you need to have a LOT of viable Rest targets, so that your Rest actually forces your opponent's hand rather than simply giving them an opportunity.

(And I forgot to add Chansey to the list of things Gengar can Rest-loop.)

[Dre]

Apr 17, 2013 4:09:58 GMT -8 jorgen said:

Gengar frankly has no business running Rest, though. All of those threats are somewhat obscure and can be beaten by Gengar regardless of whether or not it has Rest, so it really gains nothing from having Rest in its set. Jynx is better able to out-stall and freeze Chansey by using Rest, which is something, although imo it's still a waste of a Jynx to try to stall with it.

Both Gengar and Jynx are good Sleep bait mostly because they're pretty fast. For what it's worth, Jynx is a bit more likely to wake up due to its Psychic resist, although Gengar has the perk of actually being useful (if only a little bit) while sleeping.

I'd say a sleeping jynx is more useful than a sleeping gengar. A sleeping jynx can be used to absorb status, relieve spc drops, wake up on specials, and lure physical pokemon consistently every battle. A sleeping gengar is really only useful for catching explosion, which is gimmicky because that works like once every 5-10 battles.

It's also harder to predict what gengar will lure in, because unlike jynx he can also instantly threatened on the special side by stuff like alakazam.

[magic9mushroom]

Thing is, though, the stuff that Jynx lures is exactly the stuff you don't want to lure because you don't want it to get in for free (ie, Tauros, Snorlax, and Rhydon if it's asleep), and the primary advantageous stuff you might double-switch in is the stuff that doesn't accomplish much from getting in on an advantageous matchup (Mie/Zam/Cloyster, though there are better options if they go with Rhydon).

Gengar, on the other hand, tends to lure Zam and Egg, of which at least the latter can be exploited for momentum and advantage by bringing in Zapdos or Lapras (likewise, if their Zam's paralysed you can capitalise on that with Rhydon/Snorlax or Slowbro). Admittedly, if it's asleep it also brings in Rhydon, which is a bit of a wash unless you have Lapras.

(Substitute Golem for Rhydon and Articuno for Lapras as befits your taste.)

[Dre]

I disagree that zam and eggy are good pokemon to lure. You're either going to go chansey, who doesn't offer much offensive pressure and lets snorlax in for free, or you're going to go to zapdos, who gets cockblocked by rhydon.

Cloyster is actually pretty good to get in 'for free' because of clamp. I agree that jynx lures in the two worst pokemon, but at the same time you know it's almost always going to be them, and you generally answer both of them with the one pokemon.

I'm not saying that the fact that jynx lures taurlax is what makes it a good sleep absorber, you don't pick a sleep absorber based on what it lures. I'm just saying that it has other qualities and at leas what it lures is predictable.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 18, 2013 21:56:10 GMT -8 Dre said:

I disagree that zam and eggy are good pokemon to lure. You're either going to go chansey, who doesn't offer much offensive pressure and lets snorlax in for free, or you're going to go to zapdos, who gets cockblocked by rhydon.

Getting in Slowbro for free, facing Zam, is hueg unless it's using Kinesis. Lapras on Egg is also an extraordinarily powerful position.

And indeed, you don't send in Zapdos if Rhydon's lurking around, but Rhydon's not everywhere.

Cloyster is actually pretty good to get in 'for free' because of clamp.

Cloyster's great to get in for free, but the advantage specifically of getting it in in a favourable matchup (which is the whole point of using lures) isn't too large because Starmie lols at you even if it does have to switch in. Cloyster is very safe because of Clamp but exerts very little pressure compared to Lapras.