Why the Wrap bug needs fixing (read this Dre)

[magic9mushroom]

Battle between alexininikovsky and magic9mushroom started!

Tier: RBY OU
Mode: Singles
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Freeze Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Variation: +10, -22

alexininikovsky sent out Alakazam!
magic9mushroom sent out Starmie!

Start of turn 1
magic9mushroom called Starmie back!
magic9mushroom sent out Exeggutor!

The foe's Alakazam used Thunder Wave!
Exeggutor is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Start of turn 2
The foe's Alakazam used Reflect!
Reflect raised alexininikovsky's team defense!

Exeggutor is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 3
The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
Exeggutor lost 53 HP! (13% of its health)

Exeggutor used Sleep Powder!
The foe's Alakazam fell asleep!

Start of turn 4
alexininikovsky called Alakazam back!
alexininikovsky sent out Lapras!

magic9mushroom called Exeggutor back!
magic9mushroom sent out Starmie!

Start of turn 5
Starmie used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Lapras is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The foe's Lapras is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 6
Starmie used Psychic!
A critical hit!
The foe's Lapras lost 44% of its health!

The foe's Lapras used Sing!
The attack of the foe's Lapras missed!

Start of turn 7
alexininikovsky called Lapras back!
alexininikovsky sent out Alakazam!

Starmie used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Alakazam lost 14% of its health!
The foe's Alakazam's Special fell!

Start of turn 8
magic9mushroom called Starmie back!
magic9mushroom sent out Rhydon!

The foe's Alakazam woke up!

Start of turn 9
alexininikovsky called Alakazam back!
alexininikovsky sent out Snorlax!

magic9mushroom called Rhydon back!
magic9mushroom sent out Exeggutor!

Start of turn 10
The foe's Snorlax used Body Slam!
Exeggutor lost 121 HP! (30% of its health)

Exeggutor used Sleep Powder!
The attack of Exeggutor missed!

Start of turn 11
The foe's Snorlax used Hyper Beam!
Exeggutor lost 192 HP! (48% of its health)

Exeggutor used Sleep Powder!
The foe's Snorlax fell asleep!

Start of turn 12
alexininikovsky called Snorlax back!
alexininikovsky sent out Alakazam!

Exeggutor used Psychic!
A critical hit!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Alakazam lost 29% of its health!

Start of turn 13
magic9mushroom called Exeggutor back!
magic9mushroom sent out Chansey!

The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
Chansey lost 130 HP! (18% of its health)
Chansey's Special fell!

Start of turn 14
alexininikovsky called Alakazam back!
alexininikovsky sent out Gengar!

Chansey used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Gengar is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Start of turn 15
magic9mushroom called Chansey back!
magic9mushroom sent out Rhydon!

The foe's Gengar used Hypnosis!
Rhydon fell asleep!

Start of turn 16
magic9mushroom called Rhydon back!
magic9mushroom sent out Snorlax!

The foe's Gengar used Mega Drain!
Snorlax lost 46 HP! (8% of its health)
Snorlax had its energy drained!

Start of turn 17
alexininikovsky called Gengar back!
alexininikovsky sent out Cloyster!

Snorlax used Earthquake!
The foe's Cloyster lost 18% of its health!

Start of turn 18
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Snorlax lost 52 HP! (9% of its health)

Start of turn 19
magic9mushroom called Snorlax back!
magic9mushroom sent out Starmie!

The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
It's not very effective...
Starmie lost 18 HP! (5% of its health)

Start of turn 20

The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Starmie lost 18 HP! (5% of its health)

Start of turn 21

The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Starmie lost 18 HP! (5% of its health)

Start of turn 22

The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Starmie lost 18 HP! (5% of its health)

Start of turn 23

The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Starmie lost 18 HP! (5% of its health)
Starmie is freed from Clamp!

Start of turn 24
alexininikovsky called Cloyster back!
alexininikovsky sent out Alakazam!

Starmie used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Alakazam is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Start of turn 25
magic9mushroom called Starmie back!
magic9mushroom sent out Exeggutor!

The foe's Alakazam used Recover!
The foe's Alakazam regained health!

Start of turn 26
The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
Exeggutor lost 27 HP! (6% of its health)
Exeggutor fainted!
magic9mushroom sent out Snorlax!

Start of turn 27
alexininikovsky called Alakazam back!
alexininikovsky sent out Gengar!

Snorlax used Body Slam!
It had no effect on the foe's Gengar!

Start of turn 28
Snorlax used Body Slam!
It had no effect on the foe's Gengar!

The foe's Gengar used Hypnosis!
The attack of the foe's Gengar missed!

alexininikovsky: lol forgot

Start of turn 29
Snorlax used Body Slam!
It had no effect on the foe's Gengar!

The foe's Gengar used Thunderbolt!
Snorlax lost 125 HP! (23% of its health)

Start of turn 30
Snorlax used Earthquake!
It's super effective!
The foe's Gengar lost 75% of its health!

The foe's Gengar used Thunderbolt!
Snorlax lost 117 HP! (22% of its health)

Start of turn 31
alexininikovsky called Gengar back!
alexininikovsky sent out Lapras!

Snorlax used Body Slam!
The foe's Lapras lost 26% of its health!

Start of turn 32
Snorlax used Body Slam!
The foe's Lapras lost 25% of its health!

The foe's Lapras used Blizzard!
Snorlax lost 180 HP! (34% of its health)
Snorlax was frozen solid!

magic9mushroom: yay
alexininikovsky: lol

Start of turn 33
magic9mushroom called Snorlax back!
magic9mushroom sent out Chansey!

alexininikovsky called Lapras back!
alexininikovsky sent out Snorlax!

Start of turn 34
magic9mushroom called Chansey back!
magic9mushroom sent out Slowbro!

The foe's Snorlax is fast asleep.

magic9mushroom: Sup.

Start of turn 35
alexininikovsky called Snorlax back!
alexininikovsky sent out Cloyster!

Slowbro used Amnesia!
Slowbro's Special sharply rose!

Start of turn 36
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
It's not very effective...
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 37
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 38
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 39
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 40
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)
Slowbro is freed from Clamp!

Start of turn 41
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
It's not very effective...
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 42
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 43
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 44
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 45
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 11 HP! (2% of its health)
Slowbro is freed from Clamp!

Start of turn 46
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
It's not very effective...
Slowbro lost 10 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 47
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 10 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 48
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 10 HP! (2% of its health)

magic9mushroom: bastard

Start of turn 49
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 10 HP! (2% of its health)

Start of turn 50
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 10 HP! (2% of its health)
Slowbro is freed from Clamp!

Start of turn 51
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
The attack of the foe's Cloyster missed!

Slowbro used Amnesia!
Slowbro's Special sharply rose!

magic9mushroom: abusing the bugged duration
alexininikovsky: just a fan of cloyster
alexininikovsky: not my fault clamp lasts a long time
magic9mushroom: well no, but it's still a bug
magic9mushroom: it should last on average 3 turns, not 5 every time

Start of turn 52
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
A critical hit!
It's not very effective...
Slowbro lost 38 HP! (9% of its health)

Start of turn 53
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 38 HP! (9% of its health)

Start of turn 54
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 38 HP! (9% of its health)

Start of turn 55
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 38 HP! (9% of its health)

Start of turn 56
The foe's Cloyster used Clamp!
Slowbro lost 38 HP! (9% of its health)
Slowbro is freed from Clamp!

Start of turn 57
magic9mushroom called Slowbro back!
magic9mushroom sent out Chansey!

The foe's Cloyster used Hyper Beam!
The attack of the foe's Cloyster missed!

magic9mushroom: oh you lucky son of a bitch

Start of turn 58
alexininikovsky called Cloyster back!
alexininikovsky sent out Alakazam!

Chansey used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Alakazam is already paralyzed.

Start of turn 59
Chansey used Thunderbolt!
The foe's Alakazam lost 18% of its health!

The foe's Alakazam used Thunder Wave!
Chansey is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Start of turn 60
The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
Chansey lost 129 HP! (18% of its health)

Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!

magic9mushroom: you lucky cheating son of a bitch

Start of turn 61
The foe's Alakazam is paralyzed! It can't move!

Chansey used Thunderbolt!
The foe's Alakazam lost 18% of its health!

alexininikovsky: hey now... unnecessary
magic9mushroom: you directly abused a known bug in PO
magic9mushroom: there is no way in hell you could have gotten a boosted slowbro into hyper beam range without it
magic9mushroom: And in a ranked match, to boot.

Start of turn 62
The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
Chansey lost 130 HP! (18% of its health)

Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!

alexininikovsky: shit happens my friend

Start of turn 63
The foe's Alakazam is paralyzed! It can't move!

Chansey used Softboiled!
Chansey regained health!
magic9mushroom: yes, cheating shits like you do indeed happen

alexininikovsky: harsh.

Start of turn 64
alexininikovsky called Alakazam back!
alexininikovsky sent out Tauros!

Chansey used Thunderbolt!
A critical hit!
The foe's Tauros lost 52% of its health!

magic9mushroom: You directly abused a known bug in order to win a ranked match that you otherwise had no chance of winning.
Golden Gyarados is watching the battle.
magic9mushroom: It's not harsh, it's the truth.

Start of turn 65
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Chansey lost 264 HP! (37% of its health)

Chansey used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Tauros is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Start of turn 66
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
A critical hit!
Chansey lost 401 HP! (57% of its health)
Chansey fainted!
alexininikovsky: i have done nothing wrong
Golden Gyarados: whats frozen?
magic9mushroom: my snorlax
alexininikovsky: all i did was play cloyster
magic9mushroom: and then directly abuse the bugged duration of clamp to win a matchup you could never have done legitimately
magic9mushroom sent out Starmie!
alexininikovsky: how many times have i beaten you kid
magic9mushroom: lol
alexininikovsky: and you still haven't figured out how to beat a cloyster
magic9mushroom: "kid"
alexininikovsky: you are acting like a kid so i shall treat you as such
alexininikovsky: you are behaving in a manner that i would place your age as between 11 and 13
magic9mushroom: I believe the appropriate answer here is "no u"

Start of turn 67
Starmie used Psychic!
The foe's Tauros lost 34% of its health!

The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
A critical hit!
Starmie lost 228 HP! (70% of its health)
Starmie is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

alexininikovsky: point in proof

Start of turn 68
Starmie used Recover!
Starmie regained health!

The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
A critical hit!
Starmie lost 166 HP! (51% of its health)
Starmie fainted!
magic9mushroom sent out Slowbro!

Start of turn 69
Slowbro used Rest!
Slowbro went to sleep and became healthy!

The foe's Tauros is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 70
Slowbro is fast asleep.

The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Slowbro lost 101 HP! (25% of its health)

Start of turn 71
Slowbro woke up!

The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Slowbro lost 95 HP! (24% of its health)

Start of turn 72
Slowbro used Withdraw!
Slowbro's Defense rose!

The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Slowbro lost 64 HP! (16% of its health)

Start of turn 73
Slowbro used Amnesia!
Slowbro's Special sharply rose!

The foe's Tauros is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 74
Slowbro used Rest!
Slowbro went to sleep and became healthy!

The foe's Tauros used Hyper Beam!
Slowbro lost 107 HP! (27% of its health)

Start of turn 75
Slowbro is fast asleep.

The foe's Tauros must recharge!

Start of turn 76
alexininikovsky called Tauros back!
alexininikovsky sent out Alakazam!

Slowbro woke up!

Start of turn 77
Slowbro used Amnesia!
Slowbro's Special sharply rose!

The foe's Alakazam used Thunder Wave!
Slowbro is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Start of turn 78
alexininikovsky called Alakazam back!
alexininikovsky sent out Cloyster!

Slowbro used Psychic!
The foe's Cloyster lost 81% of its health!
The foe's Cloyster fainted!
alexininikovsky sent out Gengar!

Start of turn 79
The foe's Gengar used Explosion!
Slowbro lost 129 HP! (32% of its health)
The foe's Gengar fainted!
alexininikovsky sent out Lapras!

Start of turn 80
The foe's Lapras used Body Slam!
Slowbro lost 37 HP! (9% of its health)

Slowbro is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 81
The foe's Lapras used Confuse Ray!
Slowbro became confused!

Slowbro is confused!
Slowbro used Rest!
Slowbro went to sleep and became healthy!

Start of turn 82
The foe's Lapras used Body Slam!
Slowbro lost 38 HP! (9% of its health)

Slowbro is fast asleep.

Start of turn 83
alexininikovsky called Lapras back!
alexininikovsky sent out Alakazam!

Slowbro woke up!

Start of turn 84
The foe's Alakazam is paralyzed! It can't move!

Slowbro is confused!
Slowbro used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Alakazam lost 33% of its health!

Start of turn 85
The foe's Alakazam used Thunder Wave!
Slowbro is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Slowbro is confused!
Slowbro used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Alakazam lost 29% of its health!
The foe's Alakazam fainted!
alexininikovsky sent out Snorlax!

Start of turn 86
The foe's Snorlax is fast asleep.

Slowbro snapped out its confusion.
Slowbro used Withdraw!
Slowbro's Defense rose!

Start of turn 87
The foe's Snorlax is fast asleep.

Slowbro used Amnesia!
Slowbro's Special sharply rose!

Start of turn 88
alexininikovsky called Snorlax back!
alexininikovsky sent out Lapras!

Slowbro used Withdraw!
Slowbro's Defense rose!

Start of turn 89
The foe's Lapras is paralyzed! It can't move!

Slowbro used Psychic!
The foe's Lapras lost 3% of its health!
The foe's Lapras fainted!
alexininikovsky sent out Tauros!

Start of turn 90
The foe's Tauros used Hyper Beam!
The attack of the foe's Tauros missed!

Slowbro used Psychic!
The foe's Tauros lost 12% of its health!
The foe's Tauros fainted!
alexininikovsky sent out Snorlax!
Golden Gyarados: ouch

Start of turn 91
The foe's Snorlax is fast asleep.

Slowbro used Psychic!
The foe's Snorlax lost 81% of its health!
The foe's Snorlax's Special fell!

magic9mushroom: even if it had critted I'm not sure it would've KOed

Start of turn 92
The foe's Snorlax is fast asleep.

Slowbro is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 93
The foe's Snorlax is fast asleep.

Slowbro used Psychic!
The foe's Snorlax lost 18% of its health!
The foe's Snorlax fainted!
magic9mushroom won the battle!
alexininikovsky: gg
Golden Gyarados stopped watching the battle.
alexininikovsky: now stop throwing a hissy fit
alexininikovsky: and act older than 12

This is the end of the replay



Clamp's legit. Beating +2 Slowbro with it is cheating.

[t3h Icy]

Apr 7, 2013 20:59:23 GMT -8 magic9mushroom said:

alexininikovsky: now stop throwing a hissy fit
alexininikovsky: and act older than 12

This. You're playing RBY with Wrap legal, and there's nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. No excuses and whining because you lost and had bad luck. Also, beating things with Clamp without bugged Wrap is still obviously possible.

Better yet, stop playing with Wrap. ;D

[magic9mushroom]

Whining because I... lost?

Erm, I'm not sure what you mean there, Icy.


(Edit: Also, PO doesn't have a "ban Wrap" feature last time I looked )

[Dre]

Why did you keep slowbro in on clamp all that time? Didn't you have an unstatused starmie, or couldn't you just PP stall it?

Either way, you did the worst thing, which was keep a slower pokemon in. Even without the bug, it's perfectly feasible to beat a slowbro with clamp if you're not making any attempt to stall it or immediately go to a counter like starmie and force cloyster to explode or switch out.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 7, 2013 22:26:09 GMT -8 Dre said:

Why did you keep slowbro in on clamp all that time? Didn't you have an unstatused starmie, or couldn't you just PP stall it?

amnesia boosts durr

Either way, you did the worst thing, which was keep a slower pokemon in. Even without the bug, it's perfectly feasible to beat a slowbro with clamp if you're not making any attempt to stall it or immediately go to a counter like starmie and force cloyster to explode or switch out.

No offence, but we shouldn't use sub-optimal play to make a case that something should be banned.

Clamp vs. +2 Slowbro: 11-12 damage (2.8-3.1%)
Clamp crit vs. Slowbro: 39-46 damage (9.9-11.7%)
Hyper Beam vs. Slowbro: 98-116 damage (25-30%)
Cloyster crit rate: 13.6%

Average number of Clamps needed to reach possible Hyper Beam non-crit KO: 18
Average number of Clamps needed for a miss: 12
Average number of Clamps needed for a miss (bugged): 20

I honestly cbf doing this as a full random process, but just from those numbers you can see that there's a serious difference caused by the bug.


(Also, are you seriously arguing in favour of bugged Clamp?)


Edit: that first average was a harmonic mean, the arithmetic mean is higher (by AM-HM inequality) but I'm not sure by how much.

Edit2: The AM comes out to 32 or so.

[Isa]

So what do you think he should have done?

As long as Wrap has bugged mechanics, you should use that knowledge just like your opponent did. He did not choose to cause Wrap to be more powerful than it is.

When RBY was first introduced to PO, it was horribly broken. Reflect was infinitely up even if you switched out. As far as I know, nobody blamed their foes for abusing that, but complained about it to the devs. It became part of the meta, even if brief and completely against the rules of RBY. Same thing here. If it is allowed, you should not blame your opponent for using it. You can complain about it being lame, boring and so on, but it's ridiculous to say that he cheats.

[Dre]

Isa- I would have gone to starmie or stalled it. Team-building also comes into the equation. If your team isn't designed to handle cloyster well, then that's the player's shortcoming rather than clamp being broken. If your counters have been removed, then that's good play on the opponent's half/bad play on yours.


Magic- I'm not arguing to keep clamp bugged, I think it should be fixed too. I'm just saying that at high level play it will make minimal difference, especially in mid-game situations that Magic is referring to.

What I'm saying is that the bug doesn't make too much of a difference that often assuming high-level play.

Firstly, in terms of how many clamps cloyster needs on average to KO slowbro, it's less than what you mentioned because cloyster can switch to something like tauros or rhydon who have higher KO ranges with physical attacks than cloyster does.

Secondly, bug or no bug, keeping a slower pokemon in is still sub-optimal in most cases because you're inviting the opponent to switch something in to capitalise. He could have very easily clamped until you were in explosion range of something, or switched out to another wrapper, or a razor leafer etc.


The bug doesn't actually do anything that isn't possible normally, it just gives it a higher probability. So in theory, what happened in that battle could have happened without the bug anyway. It should be fixed, but the amount of times that a situation will arise in optimal play where the bug makes a significant difference is probably so small that the bug won't make much difference.

Where it matters more is actually the end-game, when cloyster does actually have a legitimate chance of sweeping. It does need to be fixed though.

[Isa]

I am not arguing against you, Dre. I am asking Magic what he thinks his foe should have done.

[Dre]

Oh I thought you were talking to me.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 7, 2013 23:21:25 GMT -8 Isa said:

So what do you think he should have done?

Not built a retarded team - two Ice-types is redundant and a lack of Egg hurts, and not let his Snorlax get slept. That said, his best options without uberClamp would have been to go Gengar (if he thought I had Surf) or Zam (if he somehow knew my actual set) and force it to Rest so he could bring in Tauros and fish for a crit.

As long as Wrap has bugged mechanics, you should use that knowledge just like your opponent did. He did not choose to cause Wrap to be more powerful than it is.

When RBY was first introduced to PO, it was horribly broken. Reflect was infinitely up even if you switched out. As far as I know, nobody blamed their foes for abusing that, but complained about it to the devs. It became part of the meta, even if brief and completely against the rules of RBY. Same thing here. If it is allowed, you should not blame your opponent for using it. You can complain about it being lame, boring and so on, but it's ridiculous to say that he cheats.

Abusing an unintended and unfaithful artifact of PO to gain points on its RBY ladder through non-RBY mechanics is unsporting and dishonorable behaviour. The term "cheating" is ill-defined in this instance due to the lack of human oversight, so in retrospect it may not have been the best word.

[Dre]

It's not cheating because both players have access to the resource, so there is no unfair advantage. The reason it needs to be fixed is because it's illegitimate, not because both players having access to five-turn wraps somehow breaks the competitiveness of the game.

[Crystal_]

lol, you went mad. Don't. It's just a game. D:

[jorgen]

Anyone remember when PO first implemented Stadium and people were leading Electrodes for infinite Screens? THAT'S abusing bugs, and nobody really got mad at each other for it