KINGLER SWEEP!

[Agent Syrup]

Battle between AgentSyrup and Kuririn started!

Tier: RBY UU
Mode: Singles
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Freeze Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Variation: +13, -19

AgentSyrup sent out Venomoth!
Kuririn sent out Sandslash!

Start of turn 1
Venomoth used Sleep Powder!
The foe's Sandslash fell asleep!

The foe's Sandslash is fast asleep.

Start of turn 2
AgentSyrup called Venomoth back!
AgentSyrup sent out Poliwrath!

Kuririn called Sandslash back!
Kuririn sent out Poliwrath!

Start of turn 3
Poliwrath used Submission!
The attack of Poliwrath missed!

The foe's Poliwrath used Hypnosis!
The attack of the foe's Poliwrath missed!

Start of turn 4
The foe's Poliwrath used Hypnosis!
The attack of the foe's Poliwrath missed!

Poliwrath used Submission!
The foe's Poliwrath lost 21% of its health!
Poliwrath is damaged by recoil!

Start of turn 5
Poliwrath used Submission!
The foe's Poliwrath lost 23% of its health!
Poliwrath is damaged by recoil!

The foe's Poliwrath used Hypnosis!
Poliwrath fell asleep!

Start of turn 6
AgentSyrup called Poliwrath back!
AgentSyrup sent out Electabuzz!

Kuririn called Poliwrath back!
Kuririn sent out Electabuzz!

Start of turn 7
Electabuzz used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Electabuzz is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The foe's Electabuzz is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 8
AgentSyrup called Electabuzz back!
AgentSyrup sent out Sandslash!

The foe's Electabuzz used Thunder Wave!
But it failed!

Start of turn 9
Kuririn called Electabuzz back!
Kuririn sent out Kingler!

Sandslash used Earthquake!
The foe's Kingler lost 31% of its health!

Start of turn 10
AgentSyrup called Sandslash back!
AgentSyrup sent out Kingler!

The foe's Kingler used Swords Dance!
The foe's Kingler's Attack sharply rose!

Start of turn 11
Kingler used Swords Dance!
Kingler's Attack sharply rose!

The foe's Kingler used Body Slam!
Kingler lost 135 HP! (43% of its health)

Start of turn 12
Kingler used Hyper Beam!
The foe's Kingler lost 68% of its health!
The foe's Kingler fainted!
Kuririn sent out Electabuzz!

Start of turn 13
Kingler used Hyper Beam!
The foe's Electabuzz lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Electabuzz fainted!
Kuririn sent out Poliwrath!

Start of turn 14
Kingler used Hyper Beam!
A critical hit!
The foe's Poliwrath lost 55% of its health!
The foe's Poliwrath fainted!
Kuririn sent out Graveler!
AgentSyrup: KINGLER SWEEP!

Start of turn 15
Kingler used Crabhammer!
A critical hit!
It's super effective!
The foe's Graveler lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Graveler fainted!
Kuririn sent out Arcanine!

Start of turn 16
The foe's Arcanine used Body Slam!
Kingler lost 65 HP! (20% of its health)

Kingler used Body Slam!
The foe's Arcanine lost 44% of its health!

NananaBatman is watching the battle.

Start of turn 17
The foe's Arcanine used Body Slam!
Kingler lost 68 HP! (21% of its health)
Kingler is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Kingler used Hyper Beam!
NananaBatman stopped watching the battle.
The foe's Arcanine lost 55% of its health!
The foe's Arcanine fainted!
Kuririn: gg
Kuririn sent out Sandslash!

Start of turn 18
The foe's Sandslash woke up!

Kingler used Crabhammer!
A critical hit!
It's super effective!
AgentSyrup: gg
The foe's Sandslash lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Sandslash fainted!
AgentSyrup won the battle!
AgentSyrup: Check out RBYPlus! A gen 1 mod that makes every Pokemon and type viable! www.rby2k10.proboards.com/thread/1208/rbyplus-main

The window was disabled due to one of the players closing the battle window.

[jorgen]

For a minute I thought this was going to be OU. But this works too, I guess. I find it funny how it was basically a mirror match (like, literally, move-for-move) until one of you finally won the Kingler ditto. If he gets his Hyper Beam off, he's just as easily the one sweeping

[magic9mushroom]

Thought this was going to be OU.

Gengar is the problem.

Then again, when is Gengar not a problem for me...

[shadow]

I love Kingler. Here's a couple more examples of Kingler being awesome. They're a little old, since I haven't played in a while.

Battle Log:
Battle Mode: Red/Blue/Yellow
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Freeze Clause
Rule: Self-KO Clause
Rule: Apply PP Ups
Rule: Battle Timeout
Rule: Unrated
Rule: Evasion Clause
spies vs shadow. Begin!
spies sent out Starmie (Lv.100 Starmie)!
shadow sent out Hypno (Lv.100 Hypno)!

Begin Turn #1
Starmie used Hydro Pump!
(129 damage)
---------------------------------
Hypno used Hypnosis!
Starmie fell asleep!
---------------------------------
End of turn #1
spies's Starmie: 100% HP (Slp)
shadow's Hypno: 244 HP

Begin Turn #2
shadow withdrew Hypno!
shadow sent out Tauros (Lv.100 Tauros)!
---------------------------------
Starmie is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #2
spies's Starmie: 100% HP (Slp)
shadow's Tauros: 353 HP

Begin Turn #3
Starmie woke up!
---------------------------------
Tauros used Body Slam!
(35% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #3
spies's Starmie: 65% HP
shadow's Tauros: 353 HP

Begin Turn #4
shadow withdrew Tauros!
shadow sent out Chansey (Lv.100 Chansey)!
---------------------------------
Starmie used Hydro Pump!
(139 damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #4
spies's Starmie: 65% HP
shadow's Chansey: 564 HP

Begin Turn #5
spies withdrew Starmie!
spies sent out Exeggutor (Lv.100 Exeggutor)!
---------------------------------
Chansey used Ice Beam!
(36% damage)
It's super effective!
---------------------------------
End of turn #5
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Chansey: 564 HP

Begin Turn #6
Exeggutor used Sleep Powder!
Chansey fell asleep!
---------------------------------
Chansey is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #6
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Chansey: 564 HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #7
Exeggutor used Stun Spore!
But it failed!
---------------------------------
Chansey woke up!
---------------------------------
End of turn #7
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Chansey: 564 HP

Begin Turn #8
Exeggutor used Sleep Powder!
Chansey fell asleep!
---------------------------------
Chansey is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #8
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Chansey: 564 HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #9
Exeggutor used Psychic!
(116 damage)
---------------------------------
Chansey is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #9
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Chansey: 448 HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #10
Exeggutor used Psychic!
(114 damage)
---------------------------------
Chansey is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #10
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Chansey: 334 HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #11
Exeggutor used Psychic!
(125 damage)
---------------------------------
Chansey is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #11
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Chansey: 209 HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #12
Exeggutor used Psychic!
(130 damage)
Chansey's Special fell!
---------------------------------
Chansey woke up!
---------------------------------
End of turn #12
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Chansey: 79 HP

Begin Turn #13
Exeggutor used Sleep Powder!
Chansey fell asleep!
---------------------------------
Chansey is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #13
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Chansey: 79 HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #14
shadow withdrew Chansey!
shadow sent out Hypno (Lv.100 Hypno)!
---------------------------------
Exeggutor used Psychic!
(60 damage)
It's not very effective...
---------------------------------
End of turn #14
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP
shadow's Hypno: 184 HP

Begin Turn #15
Hypno used Hypnosis!
Exeggutor fell asleep!
---------------------------------
Exeggutor is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #15
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP (Slp)
shadow's Hypno: 184 HP

Begin Turn #16
shadow withdrew Hypno!
shadow sent out Snorlax (Lv.100 Snorlax)!
---------------------------------
Exeggutor is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #16
spies's Exeggutor: 64% HP (Slp)
shadow's Snorlax: 523 HP

Begin Turn #17
Exeggutor is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Body Slam!
(33% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #17
spies's Exeggutor: 31% HP (Slp)
shadow's Snorlax: 523 HP

Begin Turn #18
spies withdrew Exeggutor!
spies sent out Snorlax (Lv.100 Snorlax)!
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Body Slam!
(27% damage)
Snorlax is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
---------------------------------
End of turn #18
spies's Snorlax: 73% HP (Par)
shadow's Snorlax: 523 HP

Begin Turn #19
Snorlax is paralyzed! It can't move!
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Counter!
But it failed!
---------------------------------
End of turn #19
spies's Snorlax: 73% HP (Par)
shadow's Snorlax: 523 HP

Begin Turn #20
shadow withdrew Snorlax!
shadow sent out Cloyster (Lv.100 Cloyster)!
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Body Slam!
(67 damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #20
spies's Snorlax: 73% HP (Par)
shadow's Cloyster: 236 HP

Begin Turn #21
spies withdrew Snorlax!
spies sent out Starmie (Lv.100 Starmie)!
---------------------------------
Cloyster used Blizzard!
(22% damage)
It's not very effective...
---------------------------------
End of turn #21
spies's Starmie: 43% HP
shadow's Cloyster: 236 HP

Begin Turn #22
Starmie used Hydro Pump!
(77 damage)
It's not very effective...
---------------------------------
Cloyster used Explosion!
(43% damage)
Starmie fainted!
Cloyster fainted!
spies sent out Snorlax (Lv.100 Snorlax)!
shadow sent out Hypno (Lv.100 Hypno)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #22
spies's Snorlax: 73% HP (Par)
shadow's Hypno: 184 HP

Begin Turn #23
Hypno used Psychic!
(29% damage)
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Hyper Beam!
(184 damage)
Hypno fainted!
gorgie has started watching.
gorgie: yo spies adv xD

shadow sent out Kingler (Lv.100 Kingler)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #23
spies's Snorlax: 44% HP (Par)
shadow's Kingler: 313 HP
spies: dont have team

Begin Turn #24
spies withdrew Snorlax!
spies sent out Chansey (Lv.100 Chansey)!
---------------------------------
Kingler used Swords Dance!
Kingler's Attack sharply rose!
---------------------------------
End of turn #24
spies's Chansey: 100% HP
shadow's Kingler: 313 HP

Begin Turn #25
Kingler used Hyper Beam!
(100% damage)
Chansey fainted!
spies sent out Alakazam (Lv.100 Alakazam)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #25
spies's Alakazam: 100% HP
shadow's Kingler: 313 HP

Begin Turn #26
Alakazam used Psychic!
(194 damage)
---------------------------------
Kingler used Hyper Beam!
(100% damage)
Alakazam fainted!
spies sent out Tauros (Lv.100 Tauros)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #26
spies's Tauros: 100% HP
shadow's Kingler: 119 HP

Begin Turn #27
shadow withdrew Kingler!
shadow sent out Snorlax (Lv.100 Snorlax)!
---------------------------------
Tauros used Body Slam!
(244 damage)
A critical hit!
---------------------------------
End of turn #27
spies's Tauros: 100% HP
shadow's Snorlax: 279 HP

Begin Turn #28
Tauros used Body Slam!
(128 damage)
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Selfdestruct!
(88% damage)
Snorlax fainted!
shadow sent out Tauros (Lv.100 Tauros)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #28
spies's Tauros: 12% HP
shadow's Tauros: 353 HP

Begin Turn #29
spies withdrew Tauros!
spies sent out Exeggutor (Lv.100 Exeggutor)!
---------------------------------
Tauros used Body Slam!
(28% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #29
spies's Exeggutor: 3% HP (Slp)
shadow's Tauros: 353 HP

Begin Turn #30
shadow withdrew Tauros!
shadow sent out Kingler (Lv.100 Kingler)!
---------------------------------
Exeggutor is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #30
spies's Exeggutor: 3% HP (Slp)
shadow's Kingler: 119 HP

Begin Turn #31
spies withdrew Exeggutor!
spies sent out Tauros (Lv.100 Tauros)!
---------------------------------
Kingler used Body Slam!
(13% damage)
Tauros fainted!
spies sent out Snorlax (Lv.100 Snorlax)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #31
spies's Snorlax: 44% HP (Par)
shadow's Kingler: 119 HP

Begin Turn #32
Kingler used Body Slam!
(21% damage)
---------------------------------
Snorlax is paralyzed! It can't move!
---------------------------------
End of turn #32
spies's Snorlax: 23% HP (Par)
shadow's Kingler: 119 HP

Begin Turn #33
Kingler used Crabhammer!
(23% damage)
A critical hit!
Snorlax fainted!
spies sent out Exeggutor (Lv.100 Exeggutor)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #33
spies's Exeggutor: 3% HP (Slp)
shadow's Kingler: 119 HP

Begin Turn #34
Kingler used Crabhammer!
(3% damage)
A critical hit!
It's not very effective...
Exeggutor fainted!

End Battle! shadow wins!
Score: 0 to 3
shadow: gg

NetBattle v1.1.1
Log saved 21/03/2012 at 3:38:04 PM








Battle Log:
Battle Mode: Red/Blue/Yellow
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Freeze Clause
Rule: Self-KO Clause
Rule: Apply PP Ups
Rule: Battle Timeout
Rule: Evasion Clause
shadow vs GGFan. Begin!
shadow sent out Snorlax (Lv.100 Snorlax)!
GGFan sent out Starmie (Lv.100 Starmie)!

Begin Turn #1
Starmie used Psychic!
(151 damage)
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Body Slam!
(39% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #1
shadow's Snorlax: 372 HP
GGFan's Starmie: 61% HP

Begin Turn #2
Starmie used Thunder Wave!
Snorlax is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Body Slam!
(37% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #2
shadow's Snorlax: 372 HP (Par)
GGFan's Starmie: 24% HP

Begin Turn #3
Starmie used Recover!
Starmie regained health!
---------------------------------
Snorlax is paralyzed! It can't move!
---------------------------------
End of turn #3
shadow's Snorlax: 372 HP (Par)
GGFan's Starmie: 74% HP

Begin Turn #4
Starmie used Psychic!
(135 damage)
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Body Slam!
(37% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #4
shadow's Snorlax: 237 HP (Par)
GGFan's Starmie: 37% HP

Begin Turn #5
Starmie used Recover!
Starmie regained health!
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Selfdestruct!
(87% damage)
A critical hit!
Starmie fainted!
Snorlax fainted!
shadow sent out Exeggutor (Lv.100 Exeggutor)!
GGFan sent out Exeggutor (Lv.100 Exeggutor)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #5
shadow's Exeggutor: 393 HP
GGFan's Exeggutor: 100% HP

Begin Turn #6
Exeggutor used Sleep Powder!
Exeggutor fell asleep!
---------------------------------
Exeggutor is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #6
shadow's Exeggutor: 393 HP
GGFan's Exeggutor: 100% HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #7
shadow withdrew Exeggutor!
shadow sent out Zapdos (Lv.100 Zapdos)!
---------------------------------
Exeggutor is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #7
shadow's Zapdos: 383 HP
GGFan's Exeggutor: 100% HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #8
GGFan withdrew Exeggutor!
GGFan sent out Snorlax (Lv.100 Snorlax)!
---------------------------------
Zapdos used Drill Peck!
(24% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #8
shadow's Zapdos: 383 HP
GGFan's Snorlax: 76% HP

Begin Turn #9
Zapdos used Thunderbolt!
(33% damage)
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Body Slam!
(117 damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #9
shadow's Zapdos: 266 HP
GGFan's Snorlax: 43% HP

Begin Turn #10
Zapdos used Thunderbolt!
(31% damage)
---------------------------------
Snorlax used Selfdestruct!
(266 damage)
Zapdos fainted!
Snorlax fainted!
shadow sent out Tauros (Lv.100 Tauros)!
GGFan sent out Clefable (Lv.100 Clefable)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #10
shadow's Tauros: 353 HP
GGFan's Clefable: 100% HP

Begin Turn #11
Tauros used Earthquake!
(24% damage)
---------------------------------
Clefable used Thunder Wave!
Tauros is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
---------------------------------
End of turn #11
shadow's Tauros: 353 HP (Par)
GGFan's Clefable: 76% HP

Begin Turn #12
Clefable used Body Slam!
(78 damage)
---------------------------------
Tauros used Blizzard!
(20% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #12
shadow's Tauros: 275 HP (Par)
GGFan's Clefable: 56% HP

Begin Turn #13
Clefable used Body Slam!
(87 damage)
---------------------------------
Tauros used Body Slam!
(31% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #13
shadow's Tauros: 188 HP (Par)
GGFan's Clefable: 25% HP

Begin Turn #14
Clefable used Hyper Beam!
(188 damage)
A critical hit!
Tauros fainted!
shadow sent out Exeggutor (Lv.100 Exeggutor)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #14
shadow's Exeggutor: 393 HP
GGFan's Clefable: 25% HP

Begin Turn #15
GGFan withdrew Clefable!
GGFan sent out Exeggutor (Lv.100 Exeggutor)!
---------------------------------
Exeggutor used Psychic!
(27% damage)
A critical hit!
It's not very effective...
---------------------------------
End of turn #15
shadow's Exeggutor: 393 HP
GGFan's Exeggutor: 73% HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #16
shadow withdrew Exeggutor!
shadow sent out Kingler (Lv.100 Kingler)!
---------------------------------
Exeggutor is fast asleep.
---------------------------------
End of turn #16
shadow's Kingler: 313 HP
GGFan's Exeggutor: 73% HP (Slp)

Begin Turn #17
GGFan withdrew Exeggutor!
GGFan sent out Chansey (Lv.100 Chansey)!
---------------------------------
Kingler used Swords Dance!
Kingler's Attack sharply rose!
---------------------------------
End of turn #17
shadow's Kingler: 313 HP
GGFan's Chansey: 100% HP

Begin Turn #18
Kingler used Hyper Beam!
(100% damage)
A critical hit!
Chansey fainted!
GGFan sent out Tauros (Lv.100 Tauros)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #18
shadow's Kingler: 313 HP
GGFan's Tauros: 100% HP

Begin Turn #19
Tauros used Body Slam!
(99 damage)
---------------------------------
Kingler used Body Slam!
(43% damage)
---------------------------------
End of turn #19
shadow's Kingler: 214 HP
GGFan's Tauros: 57% HP

Begin Turn #20
Tauros used Body Slam!
(88 damage)
---------------------------------
Kingler used Hyper Beam!
(57% damage)
Tauros fainted!
GGFan sent out Clefable (Lv.100 Clefable)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #20
shadow's Kingler: 126 HP
GGFan's Clefable: 25% HP
GGFan: gg
shadow: gg

NetBattle v1.1.1
Log saved 20/02/2012 at 8:29:01 PM

[magic9mushroom]

Kingler's awesome if you can get it in - the problem is that it's kinda overshadowed by Slowbro due to the latter's bulk.

[Dre]

They don't really function the same way though. Kingler would be interesting to pair up with cloyster. Cloyster would handle the defensive duties, can clamp-switch kingler in, and most importantly it blows up on starmie. If you also run zam for gengar it could work.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 23, 2013 20:23:15 GMT -8 Dre said:

They don't really function the same way though.

Yeah, they do. They're both Water-types that set up and sweep. The thing is that Slowbro has the bulk to set up Amnesia and use Rest, whereas there's nothing Kingler can do about its giant weakness to Thunderbolt.

Oh, and you forgot to mention that you need Rhydon or Golem for Zapdos and Jolteon, since STAB Thunderbolt is a guaranteed OHKO on Kingler.

[Dre]

They're still kinda different. Slowbro is the kinda thing you just throw out mid-game and hope it punches holes in their team. It can afford to take hits and paralysis due to rest. Kingler is more of a late-game sweeper that relies on everything being paralysed.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 24, 2013 16:21:39 GMT -8 Dre said:

They're still kinda different. Slowbro is the kinda thing you just throw out mid-game and hope it punches holes in their team. It can afford to take hits and paralysis due to rest. Kingler is more of a late-game sweeper that relies on everything being paralysed.

Son, do you even Amnesia?

In theory, that may be so. In practice, they're both attempts to win, though T-wave Slowbro has the consolation prize of paralysing Starmie even if it dies. Also, Slowbro's better at winning because it's not hard-countered by Gengar, Jolteon, and Zapdos.

In addition, your words themselves hint at Slowbro being pretty close to strictly better. You can throw Slowbro out on a whim and a decent chunk of the time it'll pull a win straight out of its butt, whereas "if everything is paralysed" (note, this usually means "if you've already won"), half a dozen things that are more useful than Kingler can sweep anyway.

[Dre]

I never said slowbro isn't better, i just said they play differently.

[Isa]

I think that saying two things are similar because they're both "attempts to win" is...not very similar-sounding.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 24, 2013 22:03:08 GMT -8 Isa said:

I think that saying two things are similar because they're both "attempts to win" is...not very similar-sounding.

Well, it's like saying that Lapras and Snorlax are similar inasmuch as they're both bulky stallbreakers, or that Persian and Jolteon are similar inasmuch as they're both fragile niche sweepers.

[Dre]

Right, but that's more specific than saying that they're both attempts to win. Jolteon and persian are both fragile sweepers, but kingler and slowbro aren't both mid-game stall-breakers. One is, and the other is a late-game sweeper that relies on paralysis.

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 25, 2013 18:21:01 GMT -8 Dre said:

Right, but that's more specific than saying that they're both attempts to win. Jolteon and persian are both fragile sweepers, but kingler and slowbro aren't both mid-game stall-breakers. One is, and the other is a late-game sweeper that relies on paralysis.

Well, Slowbro is ultimately both (though the only stall it truly breaks is Reflect Chansey/Zam stall), and that's why it's better.

[Dre]

Non-wrap in general is stall though, so really anything it breaks through in non-wrap is stall.

[magic9mushroom]

lolwut

[Dre]

Non-wrap is a stall meta that is fast paced due to hax. If you removed the RNG from it it would play a lot GSC with two stall teams.

You don't really need to think many turns in advance. You just counter their pokemon and wait for something to happen. Non-wrap teams are very good defensively, and without hax have a large margin for error.

A pokemon like slowbro is a stall-breaker because he is used almost purely for offensive purposes. You just throw him out and he causes some carnage.

[jorgen]

Dre stop pushing for this "Standard is so stall, Wrap teams are much more strategic" nonsense. Nobody's buying what you're selling there.

Note, too, that GSC is also often broken open by "hax". What you do is you recognize the RNG and play the odds. If you can afford to sit there spamming moves hoping for a crit or a freeze or an fp, then you do it. It's not really "luck" anymore if you can force a situation where, sooner or later, the RNG comes up in your favor. Granted, RBY Tauros is kind of an exception to this, since you rarely outright play for Tauros luck unless you're losing, and therefore when you get that luck it is kind of BS.

The thing about Wrap that most people don't like is that it's "hax" that's particularly likely to go your way, in the sense that when Wrap moves are used well, you really can't do anything about it except hope they miss (just as you can't really do anything about crits or freezes except hope they don't happen). Obviously the miss rate is what makes it unreliable and something that's actually questionable instead of being super-broken, but it doesn't miss often enough to require more than a modicum of skill to get it to work out for you.

By the by, without the crit rate in RBY you still don't have GSC because you still need Leftovers. And it certainly isn't "stall" because damage on all but 3 mons is permanent, and Lax, which is already good without an insane crit rate, can smash all 3 of these recover-users.

[Dre]

I don't see stall as a negative thing, I enjoy the strategy behind PP stall wars at the end of the game.

If you're in a position where all your pokemon are being outsped by one wrapper, then either your team is poorly designed or you just got outplayed. That isn't hax. Hax is when something improbable happens and you lose the battle despite playing better.

I don't see why you interpret stall to not be tactical. You just don't need as much tactics in NW RBY because of the hax and how solid teams are defensively. Tactics are probably more important in the strong stall elements like PP stall wars because in these instances you're on a timer and can't rely in hax for a win.

[magic9mushroom]

Slowbro vs. Slowbro definitely can end up as a chess match, I know that...

(Had a game yesterday against someone who'd copied my Withdraw Slowbro team. That was... weird.)

[Dre]

Apr 27, 2013 16:03:10 GMT -8 magic9mushroom said:

Slowbro vs. Slowbro definitely can end up as a chess match, I know that...

(Had a game yesterday against someone who'd copied my Withdraw Slowbro team. That was... weird.)

[magic9mushroom]

Apr 28, 2013 1:30:02 GMT -8 Dre said:

Apr 27, 2013 16:03:10 GMT -8 magic9mushroom said:

Slowbro vs. Slowbro definitely can end up as a chess match, I know that...

(Had a game yesterday against someone who'd copied my Withdraw Slowbro team. That was... weird.)

You quoted me but you didn't say anything.

[Dre]

I did but the text didn't come out for some reason.

I just said that someone once copied my counter poliwrath set, and that I may whip that out again if a non-wrap tourney comes by.