Jynx should be moved to uber tier

[truedragons]

pokemonshowdown.com/replay/gen1oubeta-41088004
PrimeRuler joined.
fappi joined.
Format:
[Gen 1] OU (beta)
Rated battle
Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep
Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokemon
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
Moody Clause: Moody is banned
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
HP Percentage Mod: HP is reported as percentages
Battle between PrimeRuler and fappi started!
Go! Jynx!
fappi sent out Exeggutor!
Turn 1
Jynx used Lovely Kiss!
The foe's Exeggutor fell asleep!
The foe's Exeggutor is fast asleep.
Turn 2
Jynx used Blizzard!
Jynx's attack missed!
The foe's Exeggutor is fast asleep.
Turn 3
fappi withdrew Exeggutor!
fappi sent out Starmie!
Jynx used Blizzard!
It's not very effective... The foe's Starmie lost 19.8% of its health!
Turn 4
Jynx, come back!
Go! Chansey!
The foe's Starmie used Thunder Wave!
Chansey is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
Turn 5
fappi withdrew Starmie!
fappi sent out Tauros!
Chansey, come back!
Go! Tauros!
Turn 6
Tauros used Body Slam!
The foe's Tauros lost 28.3% of its health!
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
A critical hit! Tauros lost 56.1% of its health!
Turn 7
Tauros used Hyper Beam!
Tauros's attack missed!
The foe's Tauros used Hyper Beam!
Tauros lost 43.9% of its health!
Tauros fainted!
Go! Alakazam!
Turn 8
Alakazam used Reflect!
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Alakazam lost 25.6% of its health!
Turn 9
Alakazam used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Tauros is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
The foe's Tauros used Earthquake!
Alakazam lost 21.7% of its health!
Turn 10
Alakazam used Recover!
Alakazam regained health!
The foe's Tauros used Hyper Beam!
The foe's Tauros's attack missed!
Turn 11
Alakazam used Psychic!
The foe's Tauros lost 47.9% of its health!
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
A critical hit! Alakazam lost 100% of its health!
Alakazam fainted!
Go! Exeggutor!
Turn 12
Exeggutor used Psychic!
The foe's Tauros lost 23.8% of its health!
The foe's Tauros fainted!
fappi sent out Chansey!
Turn 13
Exeggutor, come back!
Go! Chansey!
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 10.1% of its health!
Turn 14
fappi withdrew Chansey!
fappi sent out Exeggutor!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
It's super effective! The foe's Exeggutor lost 34.6% of its health!
Turn 15
fappi withdrew Exeggutor!
fappi sent out Starmie!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective... The foe's Starmie lost 12.1% of its health!
Turn 16
The foe's Starmie used Surf!
A critical hit! Chansey lost 29.9% of its health!
Chansey used Thunderbolt!
It's super effective! The foe's Starmie lost 47.7% of its health!
The foe's Starmie is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
Turn 17
The foe's Starmie used Recover!
The foe's Starmie regained health!
Chansey used Thunderbolt!
It's super effective! The foe's Starmie lost 44.0% of its health!
Turn 18
The foe's Starmie used Recover!
The foe's Starmie regained health!
Chansey used Thunderbolt!
It's super effective! The foe's Starmie lost 44.6% of its health!
Turn 19
The foe's Starmie used Recover!
The foe's Starmie regained health!
Chansey used Thunderbolt!
It's super effective! The foe's Starmie lost 49.8% of its health!
Turn 20
fappi withdrew Starmie!
fappi sent out Rhydon!
Chansey used Thunderbolt!
It doesn't affect the foe's Rhydon...
Turn 21
Chansey, come back!
Go! Exeggutor!
The foe's Rhydon used Earthquake!
It's not very effective... Exeggutor lost 19.1% of its health!
Turn 22
Exeggutor, come back!
Go! Chansey!
fappi withdrew Rhydon!
fappi sent out Chansey!
Turn 23
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 9.7% of its health!
Chansey used Softboiled!
Chansey regained health!
Turn 24
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey's attack missed!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 10.5% of its health!
Turn 25
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 10.2% of its health!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 10.1% of its health!
Turn 26
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 9.8% of its health!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 10.5% of its health!
Turn 27
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 10.5% of its health!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 10.2% of its health!
Turn 28
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 11.0% of its health!
Turn 29
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 11.5% of its health!
Chansey used Softboiled!
Chansey regained health!
Turn 30
fappi withdrew Chansey!
fappi sent out Alakazam!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Alakazam lost 18.2% of its health!
Turn 31
The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
Chansey lost 18.8% of its health!
Chansey's Special Defense fell!
Chansey's Special Attack fell!
Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 32
The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
A critical hit! Chansey lost 34.9% of its health!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Alakazam lost 12.8% of its health!
Turn 33
The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
Chansey lost 27.9% of its health!
Chansey used Softboiled!
Chansey regained health!
Turn 34
Chansey, come back!
Go! Exeggutor!
The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
It's not very effective... Exeggutor lost 13.5% of its health!
Turn 35
The foe's Alakazam used Recover!
The foe's Alakazam regained health!
Exeggutor used Mega Drain!
The foe's Alakazam lost 15.7% of its health!
The foe's Alakazam had its energy drained!
Turn 36
The foe's Alakazam used Thunder Wave!
Exeggutor is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
Exeggutor is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 37
The foe's Alakazam used Psychic!
A critical hit! It's not very effective... Exeggutor lost 28.0% of its health!
Exeggutor used Explosion!
The foe's Alakazam lost 84.3% of its health!
The foe's Alakazam fainted!
Exeggutor fainted!
fappi sent out Starmie!
Go! Jynx!
Turn 38
Jynx, come back!
Go! Rhydon!
The foe's Starmie used Thunderbolt!
It doesn't affect Rhydon...
Turn 39
Rhydon used Earthquake!
The foe's Starmie lost 31.6% of its health!
The foe's Starmie fainted!
fappi sent out Chansey!
Turn 40
Rhydon, come back!
Go! Chansey!
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
A critical hit! Chansey lost 19.5% of its health!
Turn 41
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 11.1% of its health!
Chansey used Softboiled!
Chansey regained health!
Turn 42
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 11.4% of its health!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 9.7% of its health!
Turn 43
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 11.2% of its health!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 10.5% of its health!
Turn 44
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 11.4% of its health!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 11.0% of its health!
Turn 45
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 10.5% of its health!
Chansey used Softboiled!
Chansey regained health!
Turn 46
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
A critical hit! The foe's Chansey lost 22.5% of its health!
Turn 47
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 48
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Chansey lost 10.2% of its health!
Chansey used Thunderbolt!
The foe's Chansey lost 10.8% of its health!
Turn 49
fappi withdrew Chansey!
fappi sent out Rhydon!
Chansey used Ice Beam!
It's super effective! The foe's Rhydon lost 56.2% of its health!
Turn 50
The foe's Rhydon used Earthquake!
Chansey lost 52.5% of its health!
Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 51
The foe's Rhydon used Earthquake!
Chansey lost 30.4% of its health!
Chansey fainted!
Go! Rhydon!
Turn 52
The foe's Rhydon used Earthquake!
It's super effective! Rhydon lost 56.7% of its health!
Rhydon used Earthquake!
It's super effective! The foe's Rhydon lost 43.8% of its health!
The foe's Rhydon fainted!
fappi sent out Chansey!
Turn 53
Rhydon, come back!
Go! Jynx!
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective... Jynx lost 12.6% of its health!
Turn 54
Jynx, come back!
Go! Rhydon!
The foe's Chansey used Thunder Wave!
It doesn't affect Rhydon...
Turn 55
fappi withdrew Chansey!
fappi sent out Exeggutor!
Rhydon, come back!
Go! Jynx!
Turn 56
Jynx used Blizzard!
Jynx's attack missed!
The foe's Exeggutor is fast asleep.
The foe's Exeggutor woke up!
Turn 57
fappi withdrew Exeggutor!
fappi sent out Chansey!
Jynx used Lovely Kiss!
The foe's Chansey fell asleep!
Turn 58
Jynx used Blizzard!
A critical hit! The foe's Chansey lost 38.8% of its health!
The foe's Chansey is fast asleep.
The foe's Chansey woke up!
Turn 59
Jynx used Lovely Kiss!
Jynx's attack missed!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 60
Jynx used Lovely Kiss!
The foe's Chansey fell asleep!
The foe's Chansey is fast asleep.
Turn 61
Jynx, come back!
Go! Rhydon!
The foe's Chansey is fast asleep.
The foe's Chansey woke up!
Turn 62
fappi withdrew Chansey!
fappi sent out Exeggutor!
Rhydon, come back!
Go! Jynx!
Turn 63
Jynx used Lovely Kiss!
Jynx's attack missed!
The foe's Exeggutor used Sleep Powder!
Jynx fell asleep!
Turn 64
Jynx is fast asleep.
The foe's Exeggutor used Mega Drain!
Jynx lost 18.0% of its health!
Jynx had its energy drained!
Turn 65
Jynx is fast asleep.
Jynx woke up!
The foe's Exeggutor used Mega Drain!
Jynx lost 18.0% of its health!
Jynx had its energy drained!
Turn 66
Jynx used Lovely Kiss!
The foe's Exeggutor fell asleep!
The foe's Exeggutor is fast asleep.
Turn 67
Jynx, come back!
Go! Rhydon!
fappi withdrew Exeggutor!
fappi sent out Chansey!
Turn 68
Rhydon used Body Slam!
The foe's Chansey lost 31.0% of its health!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
The foe's Chansey used Counter!
Rhydon lost 43.3% of its health!
Rhydon fainted!
Go! Jynx!
Turn 69
Jynx used Mimic!
Jynx learned Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey used Thunder Wave!
Jynx is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
Turn 70
Jynx used Psychic!
The foe's Chansey lost 14.7% of its health!
The foe's Chansey's Special Defense fell!
The foe's Chansey's Special Attack fell!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 71
Jynx used Psychic!
The foe's Chansey lost 21.2% of its health!
The foe's Chansey's Special Defense fell!
The foe's Chansey's Special Attack fell!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 72
Jynx used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 31.4% of its health!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 73
Jynx used Blizzard!
The foe's Chansey lost 40.1% of its health!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 74
fappi: dont start bullshitting with paralyze every fucking go
fappi: fuck off
Jynx used Blizzard!
A critical hit! The foe's Chansey lost 38.8% of its health!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 75
Jynx used Psychic!
The foe's Chansey lost 28.6% of its health!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 76
fappi: ugh cant win when the games like this, para'd me three times not you once..
Jynx used Blizzard!
The foe's Chansey lost 40.1% of its health!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 77
Jynx is paralyzed! It can't move!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 78
PrimeRuler: darn
fappi: ....
Jynx used Psychic!
The foe's Chansey lost 26.2% of its health!
The foe's Chansey's Special Defense fell!
The foe's Chansey's Special Attack fell!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 79
Jynx used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 38.0% of its health!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 80
fappi: ....
Jynx used Blizzard!
A critical hit! The foe's Chansey lost 37.6% of its health!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 81
Jynx used Psychic!
A critical hit! The foe's Chansey lost 27.6% of its health!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 82
fappi: nice crits, nice no paralyse..
PrimeRuler: god
fappi: lucky you
PrimeRuler: lol
Jynx is paralyzed! It can't move!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 83
PrimeRuler: well I'm dead now
Jynx used Psychic!
A critical hit! The foe's Chansey lost 28.4% of its health!
The foe's Chansey's Special Defense fell!
The foe's Chansey's Special Attack fell!
The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective... Jynx lost 4.2% of its health!
Turn 84
fappi: nt really
Jynx is paralyzed! It can't move!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 85
fappi: omfg fuck off
fappi: paralysing me the one time u fuckin do it to her
Jynx used Psychic!
The foe's Chansey lost 41.1% of its health!
The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!
Turn 86
Jynx used Psychic!
The foe's Chansey lost 38.8% of its health!
The foe's Chansey's Special Defense fell!
The foe's Chansey's Special Attack fell!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 87
fappi: ye ive been bullshitted out of this
fappi: so badly
Jynx used Ice Beam!
The foe's Chansey lost 41.5% of its health!
The foe's Chansey fainted!
fappi: suck my dick
fappi sent out Exeggutor!
Turn 88
The foe's Exeggutor is fast asleep.
The foe's Exeggutor woke up!
Jynx used Ice Beam!
It's super effective! The foe's Exeggutor lost 49.6% of its health!
Turn 89
The foe's Exeggutor used Mega Drain!
Jynx lost 18.3% of its health!
Jynx had its energy drained!
Jynx used Ice Beam!
It's super effective! The foe's Exeggutor lost 38.9% of its health!
The foe's Exeggutor fainted!
PrimeRuler won the battle!
Ladder updating...
PrimeRuler's rating: 1707 ? 1711
(+4 for winning)
fappi's rating: 1540 ? 1530
(-10 for losing)
fappi: grats on the bullshit win
fappi left.
PrimeRuler: gg

[jorgen]

Not a very well-played match imo. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not hating, I'm just observing questionable plays (mostly on his end).

The opening was befuddling, I mean I have no idea why would he leave a sleeping Egg in on Jynx. Him switching Tauros into a perfectly healthy Chansey was questionable too, that's a good way to get your bull para'd before it even gets to do anything.

Your own Bull switch-in to create the Turn 5 Tauros ditto was iffy, too. The only switch-in that works out for you there is if he goes out to Rhydon, which would actually be a pretty logical play on his part what with your own Chansey being paralyzed and staring down a Starmie. Even then there's nothing forcing you to not use IB, so it's more likely he goes to unparalyzed Zam or Snorlax to play it safe, both of which are bad match-ups for Tauros.

Speaking of unpara'd Zam being a bad matchup for the bull, him leaving Tauros in on Zam was a very questionable call as well. Luckily it worked out for him in the end, as he did end up killing that Zam, but that newb strategy (just keep Tauros in and try to crit things) is only going to get you so far.

Him leaving Starmie in on your Chansey was pretty questionable (he had Zam and his Egg was asleep, he should be keeping Starmie healthy to deal with your Rhydon!), as was him bringing in Rhydon on your Chansey without counting whether you'd used all your Ice Beams. Not sure why his Egg didn't try to Explode on your Jynx, either, and using Counter against Rhydon is a poor way to try and predict him staying in considering it doesn't work on EQ or RS. You gotta IB if you predict him staying in!

And with all this, I didn't see Jynx doing a lot of Jynx-like things. In my experience she usually sleeps one thing and freezes another in the opening for a decisive advantage. Here, it was just Special Falls in the endgame, something Alakazam could have done.

Finally, is self-KO clause implemented on Showdown!? Because he could have tied it there with Eggy Bomb if not.

[Isa]

Turn 68
Rhydon used Body Slam!
The foe's Chansey lost 31.0% of its health!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
The foe's Chansey used Counter!
Rhydon lost 43.3% of its health!
Rhydon fainted!


This was the highlight of the game in my opinion.

Other than that I agree with what Jorgen said.

[Dre]

Jorgen- I think that's a pretty limited view of what Jynx does. It's also a good sleep absorber or status sponge, and rest jynx can freeze war chansey without actually getting frozen, normally forcing it out.

This is not including situational things like counter gimmicks, paraslams and stoss pressure because they don't happen every battle.

Maybe you and I have different definitions of what we mean by a pokemon's 'role' but to me it's something that the pokemon can reliably do every battle. To me, you shouldn't be using jynx to get sleeps and freezes, you should be using it for its utility in the status game, because it can fulfil a status role every battle. Things like sleeps and freezes are luxuries to me.

Jynx is mad underrated though, but then again I think all the OU ices except articuno (lol) are.

[v1nce]

Lapras is not underrated.

[Dre]

Jul 23, 2013 9:34:33 GMT -8 v1nce said:

Lapras is not underrated.

As in you think everyone appreciates how good it is, or you don't think it's good?

If it's the former, I think most people think starmie is the best water in OU, whereas I think it's either lapras or cloyster (non-wrap and wrap respectively).

The only problem with lapras is that it's a troll pokemon because it needs cray to do anything.

I really hope no-one says is that blizzard+bulk is how it does its damage. You might as well run articuno then.

[Isa]

Thunderbolt surely means nothing.

[Dre]

Thunderbolt isn't 'lolnoob' but I still think bslam should go over it. Non-STAB special is redundant on lapras.

You might say that it hits starmie SE, but the point of running a lapras is to have a water that has a shot at beating chansey, or at least that chansey is hesitant to switch into. To do that, you need cray bslam rest. If you put tbolt over any of those you basically have next to no chance against chansey, making lapras pretty redundant. That set has a chance to beat starmie too, but you won't be beating both in the one battle.

The bulk is obviously good too though, but the reason why lapras is better than articuno, and sometimes preferred to starmie is that not only can it take on physicals, but it can also take down a special.

[jorgen]

I dunno, the fact that Lapras can actually hurt Starmie/Slowbro/other Lapras is a pretty big advantage over Articuno, too.

[magic9mushroom]

Jul 25, 2013 20:20:36 GMT -8 Dre said:

]If it's the former, I think most people think starmie is the best water in OU, whereas I think it's either lapras or cloyster (non-wrap and wrap respectively).

Recover is god-tier, Thunder Wave is very reliable, and STAB Psychic capability/resistance is excellent once shit's paraed. The hax potential of Starmie is also just plain ridiculous.

(There's also Slowbro to consider when you're weighing up waters, and it's even better at getting past Chansey and Zam while having a far more aggressive Rest than Lapras. Lapras's Thunderbolt is one of its big advantages in that regard.)

[Dre]

Jul 26, 2013 7:15:28 GMT -8 jorgen said:

I dunno, the fact that Lapras can actually hurt Starmie/Slowbro/other Lapras is a pretty big advantage over Articuno, too.

I said that in the last line of my post. I said that's why lapras is better than articuno.

Magic- I never said starmie is bad, I just think it's usefulness is limited to defensive utility and luring chansey.

[Isa]

Pretty sure Jorgen meant hurting through TBolt, not through BSlam.

[magic9mushroom]

If Lapras uses Thunderbolt, it should go over Rest anyway. Rest Lapras is nice for punishing non-Tbolt Chansey, but it's not nearly as relevant as the other three moves.

[Dre]

Well if it runs tbolt over bslam, then it has no significant advantage over running starmie.

I guess you're right in that if it runs tbolt over bslam it's an articuno that can hit starmie. Then it's a question of whether that justifies a team slot, but I know you never said that it does.

Magic- I think it needs cray bslam rest to go through chansey, otherwise your chances are pretty slim. Body slam is almost entirely for chansey and maybe zam (because you would just run tbolt for starmie if you didnt care about those two), so it's not really optimal to run that, and then not have a set designed to take down chansey.

To me, it's like booming on all their specials and whipping out a stosszam. If you design your team around using zam to sweep physicals in the end-game, reflect makes more sense because it's more optimal. . Sorry I couldn't think of a better analogy.

[Isa]

Starmie 3HKOs Tauros (unless Hydro Pump) and 4HKOs Lax (unless Spec drop Psychic), and if it's a Starmie with TBolt/Blizz/TWave, it only 5HKOs. Lapras has a 50% to 2HKO Tauros with Blizzard, not counting CHs, and 3HKOs Snorlax. Tauros needs 4 attacks to KO Lapras, BSlam-->BSlam-->HBeam is only a 3HKO in something like 15% of the cases (not counting FPs). Chansey will not always be living, and you don't want to become too predictable either, so at times something else WILL have to take a hit.

It's also not entirely safe to switch in Chansey to Lapras either because Sing is always a possibility. It's unreliable and I would not run it, but I'm not the only player in the world, and Sing is being used.

[magic9mushroom]

Aug 1, 2013 0:39:24 GMT -8 Isa said:

Lapras has a 50% to 2HKO Tauros with Blizzard, not counting CHs,

Not 50%. Ignoring crits and misses (which mostly cancel out since Lapras's crit rate and miss rate are similar), it's more like 1/3.

(I'll also note that with Starmie's stupid-huge crit rate, its chance to 2HKO with Psychic is actually about 40% - higher than Lapras with Blizzard, and it outspeeds to boot.)

[Isa]

Lapras Blizzard vs Tauros - 185-158 (52%-48%)

Seems like ~50% to me?

[magic9mushroom]

Aug 3, 2013 3:14:15 GMT -8 Isa said:

Lapras Blizzard vs Tauros - 185-158 (52%-48%)

Seems like ~50% to me?

52-48% is indeed pretty even, but 158 isn't 48% of 353, it's 45%.

(50% would be 176.5 damage, which is well towards the upper end of that range.)

[Dre]

I'd say that starmie has relatively equal matchups against the normals to lapras. Your analysis ignored that starmie is faster than tauros, has guaranteed paralysis, a hectic crit rate and can recover without resorting to rest.

I'm not saying that they're exactly equal, but it's debatable. It really depends on the situation too. It's likely the water will be crippled in some way (because if you were just saving them for lategame to counter lax and tauros you might as well just run articuno or better normal counters). Starmie is probably more likely to recover (mind the pun) from being crippled than lapras due to its toolkit, but again it's situational.
.
So I wouldnt go as far as to say that lapras has better normal matchups. I'd say theyre similar or depend on the situation. Tbolt lapras doesnt really do anything for me because it's still just good normal MUs plus the ability the hit starmie, which your own starmie could do anyway.

With cray bslam rest, you have good matchups against all three normals, plus can threaten starmie with RNG or if it's already crippled.

I say this, but I accept that tbolt will be better in some situations, and it's not an absolutely terrible idea (like blizz-hbeam dragonite is). I just think that crazy slam rest is more consistent and will give better results in the long run because it threatens nearly everything in the meta barring a few select pokemon.

[magic9mushroom]

Aug 4, 2013 7:48:50 GMT -8 Dre said:

Tbolt lapras doesnt really do anything for me because it's still just good normal MUs plus the ability the hit starmie, which your own starmie could do anyway.

Well, Starmie does need Thunderbolt to hit other Starmie, and Thunderbolt's far from an automatic pick since it's only really necessary for the mirror and Slowbro.

With cray bslam rest, you have good matchups against all three normals, plus can threaten starmie with RNG or if it's already crippled.

Chansey's got pretty good odds of breaking Lapras's Rest if it's got Tbolt.