Legitimate versus Respectable threats: Am I Biased?

[jorgen]

When mulling over what's viable in RBY, I tend to think both of gimmicks that are really fun that I'd legitimately use and of Pokemon whose threats I respect but I would never really use.

For example, I like the gimmick of Kingler and have used it in the past. It's a lot of fun and legitimately good. Even if it doesn't set up, it gets good hits on Tauros and Snorlax.

Now, on the other hand, there's Pokemon like Dugtrio and, further along in viability, Persian that I respect the shit out of, but would never personally use. I can recognize that they could be dangerous, but it always confuses me why I wouldn't want to use them if I can recognize how good they can be, especially since I'm totally on board with Kingler. I think part of the reason is that I recognize them all as gimmicks, but I have a certain nostalgia for Kingler because when I played Blue for the first time, I leveled up a Kingler to where it got the awesome-sounding Crabhammer and thought it was the coolest thing ever.

Now, does anybody else find themselves thinking about nonstandard Pokemon in terms of "respectable" versus "I'd use that"? If so, why? Also, if you can recognize this, how accurate do you think your assessments of non-standard strategies really are?

[Dre]

I think it can have to do with not being familiar with their playstyle and being discouraged by having to learn them, and what you lose by dropping pokemon X for them.

I've always wanted to try out kingler and raticate, I think I might now after this thread.

[Isa]

I don't really feel the same. When I played through my Blue, I used whatever I caught along the way and would rarely let go (thanks Butterfree at level 42 allowing me to beat Sabrina). "tires don exits", or at least didn't for me mentally until I came here. I had no idea of what was good or not and the only thing I thought was extraordinarily cool was Pinsir, which I quickly learned sucked.

In our last anniversary tour I used Persian on a number of occasions, as it is a decent threat if you know for a fact your opponent will not use Gengar, and there's quite a few people around that you quickly learn won't use it for various reasons. However, I'd never use Dugtrio in an actual meaningful battle, as I find it to be incredibly weak in terms of power and relying solely on CHs to be any kind of threat. Not even my beloved Gyarados would I use - OU's simply outclass it most of the time. I can reach down to the bottom of the OU barrel and bring Articuno or Jolteon, but that's it.

All that being said, I have no idea if you are biased or not.

[Dre]

It's hard to tell whether he's biased or not.

On one hand, he uses kingler more than BLs who are tradtionally considered better, so that suggests bias.

On the other hand, kingler is pretty underrated in terms of his traditional tier position, so maybe not.

I think gyara is as viable as the likes of cuno and jolteon. Not that much carries thunderbolt, and you have a shot at beating chansey anyway.

As for my playthroughs, ever since I realised that soloing the game with your starter is the most efficent way to the game I've been forced to play nuzlockes where I can only use each pokecentre once to make the game challenging and enjoyable.

[magic9mushroom]

Nov 14, 2013 2:12:18 GMT -8 Dre said:

I think gyara is as viable as the likes of cuno and jolteon. Not that much carries thunderbolt, and you have a shot at beating chansey anyway.

Did I really do that good a job of convincing you?

[Dre]

I never thought Gyara was bad, I just think the immunity is overrated and that kingler is better.

[jorgen]

Gyara's one of those threats I would never use but totally respect. I recognize that the Ground immunity can be a pain in the butt for me to deal with (and isn't really overrated imo, I mean it's one of Gyara's main ways of getting in to begin with), although I would never feel comfortable enough trying to use and abuse Gyara properly on my team. Who knows, maybe it's just that I need to sack up practice using it.

[magic9mushroom]

Nov 14, 2013 15:54:22 GMT -8 jorgen said:

Gyara's one of those threats I would never use but totally respect. I recognize that the Ground immunity can be a pain in the butt for me to deal with (and isn't really overrated imo, I mean it's one of Gyara's main ways of getting in to begin with), although I would never feel comfortable enough trying to use and abuse Gyara properly on my team. Who knows, maybe it's just that I need to sack up practice using it.

Well, I tend to agree. It's uniquely usable (and thus respectable), particularly alongside Gengar for the fearsome Gar + Flying combination, but I like the other Waters more and so I wouldn't use it.

In terms of its OU potential, I'd put it around the same level as Articuno, because it's rather similar (high-powered, bulky Flying-type that OHKOs Golem/Rhydon with its special STAB). Gyarados has the extra Thunderbolt weakness, but it's also a lot more effective against Chansey thanks to its much higher Attack.

On-topic, I tend to agree that there's stuff you use, stuff you respect, and stuff you laugh at. I mean, if I see someone using Venusaur or Vileplume, I'm going to think they're either duelling left-handed or not very experienced, since Victreebel's better than either. Stuff like Articuno, Jolteon, Persian, Victreebel, and Gyarados, though, I can respect as having a niche, even if it isn't what I think to be optimal.

[cheese]

I kind of agree. I respect Kingler, but I've used him myself and I really didn't like him, so I don't really experiment with him any more. There is a gap between things I respect and things I would use personally.

Sandslash is the one I love to throw in there every now and then. 100 Base attack +STAB EQ is pretty nice, and after a Swords Dance it can really surprise people.

[magic9mushroom]

Nov 15, 2013 5:48:43 GMT -8 cheese said:

I kind of agree. I respect Kingler, but I've used him myself and I really didn't like him, so I don't really experiment with him any more. There is a gap between things I respect and things I would use personally.

Sandslash is the one I love to throw in there every now and then. 100 Base attack +STAB EQ is pretty nice, and after a Swords Dance it can really surprise people.

The issue being, of course, that STAB EQ isn't as useful for a Swords Dancer as it is for a hit-and-run attacker like Golem or Rhydon, due to Hyper Beam's increased effectiveness when boosted. I mean, here's the full list of things that +2 Sandslash can KO faster than +2 Kingler:

Gengar (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler usually 3HKOs)
Cloyster (Sandslash usually 2HKOs vs. Kingler sometimes 2HKOs)
Slowbro (Sandslash always 2HKOs vs. Kingler usually 2HKOs)
Omastar (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler 3HKOs)
Kabutops (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler usually 2HKOs)
Weezing (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler 2HKOs)
Nidoqueen (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler 2HKOs)
Muk (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler 2HKOs)
Arcanine (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler 2HKOs)
Nidoking (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler 2HKOs)
Magneton (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler safely 2HKOs or sometimes OHKOs)
Ninetales (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler safely 2HKOs or sometimes OHKOs)
Tentacruel (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler safely 2HKOs or usually OHKOs)
Koffing (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler safely 2HKOs or usually OHKOs)
Omanyte (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler usually 2HKOs)
Nidorina (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler safely 2HKOs or usually OHKOs)
Rapidash (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler safely 2HKOs or usually OHKOs)
Kabuto (Sandslash OHKOs vs. Kingler 2HKOs)
Scyther (Sandslash OHKOs with Rock Slide vs. Kingler safely 2HKOs or sometimes OHKOs)
Charizard (Sandslash OHKOs with Rock Slide vs. Kingler 2HKOs)
Moltres (Sandslash OHKOs with Rock Slide vs. Kingler 2HKOs)
Articuno (Sandslash OHKOs with Rock Slide vs. Kingler 2HKOs)

Hmm. That's actually more than I thought there'd be. Still. The only ones there you're going to see in OU are Gengar, Cloyster, Slowbro, and Articuno, and as Sandslash is outsped and OHKOed by Cloyster and Articuno, it's not going to be accomplishing anything against them anyway.

Point is, Sandslash ends up KOing mostly the same or less stuff compared to Kingler (except Gengar) and also doesn't threaten things unboosted the way Kingler does with Crabhammer.

Victreebel's still the best Swords Dancer, though, since not only is it one of the best on sweeper merit (+2 HB can sometimes OHKO Chansey, Razor Leaf not only OHKOs Golem and Rhydon but also threatens Starmie with a near-OHKO), but its movepool is wide enough that it's not 100% predictably a Swords Dancer.

The other Swords Dancer I'd respect would be Kabutops. It doesn't quite have Kingler's power, but unlike Kingler it does legitimately have some things it can use as setup bait (Hyper Beams, stuff with Ice/Normal coverage) and it also has Slash (fun fact: Kabutops's Slash does identical damage to Sandslash's Earthquake against neutral targets).

[magic9mushroom]

Oh, also, under the heading of "things I respect but don't like to use":

DRAGONITE.

Just... ugh. I don't like how it frequently results in 30 turns of boring, and I don't like having my heart in my throat for most of those turns thinking "ohgodohgodamIgonnamissWrap".

But despite that, I respect it because it's just about the scariest thing in the game when used properly.