Inverse Battles in RBY.

[Agent Syrup]

So X and Y introduced a new battle style: the inverse battle. In it all super effective attacks are now not very effective and vice versa. Being a gen 1 forum I think the question is obvious: what would this affect gen 1 battles if it was implemented?

[Isa]

Normal types would be even better. Body Slam is unresisted.

[magic9mushroom]

Dec 1, 2013 12:26:46 GMT -8 Isa said:

Normal types would be even better. Body Slam is unresisted.

Maybe immunities still work?

In which case, Gengar is now super-boss, being weak only to Grass and Poison.

[Isa]

No, immunities are now weaknesses.

Articuno and Moltres might be two of the best mons in the tier after Tauros/Snorlax.

[magic9mushroom]

Not really? STAB Ice isn't particularly effective with Grass, Ground, Flying, and Dragon all resisting it. Sure, you can murder Starmie and Lapras, but so what? Moltres fares a little better since most of the Bugs suck, but Mega Drain Egg is still going to be a pain in the neck.

[Isa]

Mega Drain will be the only attack hitting for decent damage versus Moltres (still beneath 50% though), and I imagine that Articuno can go for a Ice Beam/Reflect/Rest/Filler (maybe Sky Attack) set as it has superb defenses and a typing that makes it very difficult to kill quickly. It's in practice only weak to Earthquake and grass moves, and with Reflect up, it has the bulk to tank everything bar Razor Leaf for a rest loop (maybe not STAB EQ). It can just spam Ice moves and go for the freeze, and all Ice mons (bar Articuno!) are now weak to Ice themselves, so it's very difficult to prevent it from being a new Chansey in my eyes.
BubbleBeam might even be a good addition, to get past frustrating grass types. Mimic might be even better though if you get an attacking move, since many Pokémon carry moves they're weak to (all STAB special moves!, GolDon Rock Slide/Body Slam, etc.).

My theory of inversemon goes like this: Stats are still very important, as is base power - and with regards to typing, you want the inverse of what you currently have. Fighting, Bug, Poison etc. does not have enough base power in their moves, but there is nothing wrong with Fire Blast here. Water might also be a good typing and Ice is maybe even stronger now.

I don't know if Exeggutor would be any good since it is weak to Water, Psychic, Ground AND Electric.

I'd gladly play a few battles in this tier to figure things out. This seems like a very fun metagame. I love experimenting and innovating like this.

[cheese]

My gut says that Normal types would be (even more) amazing.
I don't even know what you would counter them with, as there's nothing that would be super effective other than ghost.

Electrics seem pretty decent, hitting Ground, Grass, Electrics and Dragon (although I doubt anyone would use Dragon) and only being weak to Flying and other Electric attacks.
Psychics would also probably be as good as ever.

[Isa]

Not convinced about Psychic being better. Poison resists it, so I am thinking that Venusaur or Victreebel have easy times finding opportunities to switch in. Those two love the boost to Razor Leaf and Hyper Beam, I think they'll take the spot of Eggy.

Normals were never hit for SE damage either way, so only Stab Normal moves get better in practice. And like I said I think the legendary birds with Reflect can keep normals in check. Persian though...

[magic9mushroom]

Dec 3, 2013 0:12:47 GMT -8 Isa said:

Not convinced about Psychic being better. Poison resists it, so I am thinking that Venusaur or Victreebel have easy times finding opportunities to switch in. Those two love the boost to Razor Leaf and Hyper Beam, I think they'll take the spot of Eggy.

Normals were never hit for SE damage either way, so only Stab Normal moves get better in practice. And like I said I think the legendary birds with Reflect can keep normals in check. Persian though...

There's a couple of BLs that use Fighting in normal RBY (Jolteon with Double Kick, definitely, and sometimes Raichu with Submission). Hardly regular, but it does come up.

(I really get annoyed when I see an opposing Jolteon use Double Kick on Tauros/Snorlax, though. Run your damage calcs, people!)

[Isa]

Because I am bored at work, here's a list of all currently OU mons and my predictions on how they'll fare with inversed typings:

Alakazam - Neutral. While it is still the fastest Psychic user and has the most powerful one, it is now threatened by more things than previously as it no longer can stall specialists with a Psychic move. It is a superb anti-lead however, only losing to Gengar (which hates paralysis) and Venusaur/Victreebel.
Articuno - Buffed. Gains a much better typing, only being weak to Ground and Grass (and Bug but lol), while resisting Electric, Rock and Fire. It is walled by even more things now, but is also harder to kill and out of the Pokémons with access to a recovery move, only Chansey can sponge its attacks, and has no way of threatening Articuno back outside of paralysis.
Chansey - Probably nerfed, but not sure. BoltBeam gets a harsh nerf, suddenly hitting very few things for super effective instead of the other way around. Flying types resist both for example. However, new coverage moves are available such as Psychic and Fire Blast/Flamethrower. Even if Chansey turns out to be nerfed, it'll still be very relevant for the metagame and will continue to shape it.
Exeggutor - Nerfed. Resistance to Ice, Flying and Fire is all good, but weaknesses to Electric, Ground, Water and Psychic are all extremely harsh on Exeggutor. Being the slowest STAB Psychic user outside of Slowbro also means a high chance of taking heavy hits wherever - every OU mon bar Articuno can now hit this for Super Effective damage. Unresisted boom is amazing, however.
Gengar - Nerfed. Its main selling point was its Ghost typing - with the drastic nerf to Ghost as a defensive type, it's main selling point will instead be being the fastest sleeper, which is probably not good enough to make it a good option. However, it's now resisting Psychic and Ground, so it's by far the best lead. It might be the Jynx of normal OU. Being OHKO'd by Hyper Beam sucks a lot though.
Golem - Nerfed. Taking more damage from STAB Body Slams from Tauros/Snorlax than from their old Earthquakes will reduce longevity. It gains a neat resistance to Grass, Ice and Water though (but gains a weakness to Electric), and should have the staying power to boom on anything. STAB Thunderbolt is not enough to guarantee an OHKO (though it is very likely) so there's that too. Earthquake is now a worse move as it now mostly hits Flying and Grass types, but Rock Slide is still decent and unresisted booms make me think Golem is a better choice than Rhydon in this metagame.
Jolteon - Heavily nerfed. While not walled by Ground types anymore, it suffers against all Water types and now has lost its only tool to beat up Chansey. RIP.
Jynx - Neutral? Is now weak to its own STAB, so it can't take a hit from the special side either these days. Alakazam/Starmie Psychic will demolish Jynx. At least it has a stronger STAB combination, but it still cannot get past Chansey, though Starmie cannot switch in now so that is nice.
Lapras - Buffed, I think. Blizzard is weaker but on the other hand Water STAB is now decent. Defensive typing is great versus everything bar Ice which destroys Lapras. Power depends on how common Ice (and Water to some extent) attacks will be.
Persian - Buffed. Slash is unresisted, no further explanation needed really.
Rhydon - Nerfed. See Golem, but remove possiblities of exploding. Punsihes Slowbro like nothing else though.
Slowbro - Unclear. Gets a few new weaknesses, and if Fire gains momentum, Slowbro could face issues. Rhydon can punish Slowbro easier now that it hard walls Slowbros without Psychic. Probably nerfed as a result.
Snorlax - Buffed. Body Slam + SelfDestruct = Guaranteed KO on everything in the game at the very least.
Starmie - Unclear, but probably buffed. Surf/Psychic/TWave/Recover seems like a very strong set, hitting all sleepers bar Gengar for super effective damage as well as a plentitute of other mons.
Tauros - Buffed. Rips everything to pieces. Cloyster can't even wall it now as Blizzard just shreds it.
Zapdos - Unclear, probably nerfed. Interesting change. Might have to rely more on Drill Peck now. Very interesting defensive typing, resisting Ice and Rock and only (in practice) weak to Grass and Flying.

[Agent Syrup]

I'm thinking Tauros and Snorlax will be on every single team now. Hyper Beam is simply monstrous.... I would very be interested to see what would become of my good ol' Victreebel.

Also, I envy Isa for having a job where you have enough time to do something like he did.

[cheese]

I'm starting to think that Normal attacks would dominate. Nothing to resist Hyper Beams and Explosions and still no weakness.

Snorlax, Tauros, Persian, Dodrio... I'd consider using all of them.

I also like Nodiking's typing, resisting water, ground, psychic and ice, being weak to electric and rock (along with poison, bug and fighting). He probably doesn't have the raw power to become a proper force though.

[magic9mushroom]

Dec 3, 2013 5:06:34 GMT -8 Isa said:

Exeggutor - Nerfed. Resistance to Ice, Flying and Fire is all good, but weaknesses to Electric, Ground, Water and Psychic are all extremely harsh on Exeggutor. Being the slowest STAB Psychic user outside of Slowbro also means a high chance of taking heavy hits wherever - every OU mon bar Articuno can now hit this for Super Effective damage. Unresisted boom is amazing, however.

Articuno gets BubbleBeam.

Slowbro - Unclear. Gets a few new weaknesses, and if Fire gains momentum, Slowbro could face issues. Rhydon can punish Slowbro easier now that it hard walls Slowbros without Psychic. Probably nerfed as a result.

Definitely nerfed, I'd say. It can run Fire Blast itself, though, so that's a plus.

Zapdos - Unclear, probably nerfed. Interesting change. Might have to rely more on Drill Peck now. Very interesting defensive typing, resisting Ice and Rock and only (in practice) weak to Grass and Flying.

I'd say it's buffed, actually. I mean, it's not like it has any hard walls anymore since Scyther and Poliwrath kinda suck (though Poliwrath's fatal Psychic weakness is now a resistance, so that's something).

[Isa]

Yeah, in terms of BL/UU/NU mons worth looking at, I'd say that Poliwrath, Dodrio, Gyarados, Tentacruel, Moltres, Venusaur, Victreebel, Nidoking, Charizard and maybe Kingler are worth some time. Maybe Clefable.

Poliwrath resists Psychic and boosts with Amnesia.
Dodrio tanks BoltBeam and has super strong attacks that are also unresisted.
Gyarados becomes the best Electric sponge in the game and has sweet mixed coverage. (Dragonite is the same but worse typing and less power.)
Tentacruel resists Psychic and Earthquake and can possibly set up an incredible bulky offense with Barrier+Rest.
Moltres is in practice only weak to Grass and Fire moves which have limited distribution/usage, and threatens every physical. Not a single physical bar SDance Vic/Ven resist Fire Blast.
Venusaur and Victreebel tank Psychics and sleep. They become alternatives to Eggy, and Razor Leaf will hit a ton of things for heavy damage.
Nidoking has a superb typing and amazing coverage.
Charizard has amazing coverage, great defensive typing and a solid boosting move.
Kingler gets rid of Gengar nowadays and Crabhammer gets stronger due to better coverage.
Clefairy has a sweet movepool and Normal STAB.

[Dexter]

Amnesia slowbro should be running psychic over surf. Rhydon shouldn't even be played with all the normals. What does rhydon switch in on? Everything kills it. Physical pokemon run SE normal moves, special pokemon use special moves. It's no longer immune to thunder wave. Water pokemon will either run strong normal or stab-psychic attacks and outspeed it. Ground/Rocks are terrible now. No point in using them at all except to maybe tank Razor leaves, but still hit by victreebel's SE hyper beam... and honestly you really shouldn't be using any pokemon outside of normals. I don't see any reason to not just run 6 normals, or at least 4. Snorlax/Tauros/Persian should be on every team. Dodrio and maybe even clefable too. Just body slam and hyper beam everything, and then explode with snorlax.

Some random things I thought of:

Snorlax can finally run that awesome Reflect/Amnesia/Rest/Body Slam set without getting walled
Scyther can finally run Agility/Swords Dance/Hyper Beam/Slash set without getting walled and actually sounds pretty cool
Nothing is immune to electrode's thunder wave or explosion and has the speed to abuse them both
Using counter on random pokemon... actually that snorlax set can be stopped by counter chansey I think LOL.

[Isa]

Mhm, with the rise of Normal moves, so will Counter rise.

And there's still the naturally bulky mons like Articuno, who destroy Tauros/Persian with STAB Blizzard. Fire Blast gets a resurgence as well, and that burn rate should scare Tauros, Snorlax and whoever. Normal types are superb, but not necessarily OP.