Categorising Snorlax's sets

[magic9mushroom]

Okay, so there are a zillion Snorlax sets out there, and I'm trying to figure out some way to sort them into as few slashed "sets" as possible while both covering everything viable and not listing non-viable combinations. Do tell me if I've missed something.

*Takes a deep breath* Okay, here I go.

HyperLax

Body Slam
Hyper Beam
Earthquake / Surf
Selfdestruct

Classic physical Lax that assures the 2HKO on Chansey with Hyper Beam. EQ is for Gengar and Counter Chansey, Surf is for Golem/Rhydon.

CounterLax

Body Slam / Mega Kick
Counter
Earthquake / Surf
Selfdestruct

Instead of Hyper Beam, this Lax uses Counter to win Snorlax dittos and Snorlax vs. Tauros. Mega Kick becomes viable in this situation to 2HKO Chansey if you can paralyse it with something else.

CoverageLax

Body Slam / Mega Kick
Earthquake
Surf
Selfdestruct

Physical Lax with both Earthquake and Surf.

StallbreakerLax (aka SamTheDigitalLax)

Body Slam
Earthquake
Reflect
Rest

Reflect Snorlax, used to stallbreak by coming in on Chansey forever, with Reflect stopping dangerous physical sweepers from taking advantage of its Rest. Since Golem/Rhydon don't 3HKO Snorlax with Reflect up, Surf is unnecessary. Mega Kick's 8 PP sucks here; Double-Edge isn't very useful since special attackers force this out without a PP-stall anyway.

TrolLax

Body Slam / Mega Kick (/ Thunderbolt?)
Blizzard
Amnesia
Selfdestruct

Amnesia + SD Lax, great as a bait-exploder. Unfortunately, its success is inversely proportional to the rate of its use.

Anybody tried this set with Thunderbolt to specifically lure Chansey and surprise the bulky Waters? It seems workable, but I've never seen it used so I'm hesitant to put it down.

AmnesiaLax

Blizzard
Body Slam / Thunderbolt
Amnesia
Rest

Setup sweeper. Blizzard is required over Ice Beam to get the OHKO on Rhydon and Golem. Thunderbolt crushes Slowbro and Rest Lapras/Cloyster, while Body Slam hits Chansey; both effectively deal with Starmie. Double-Edge is useless because physicals break this anyway; Mega Kick is a bad idea on a set with Rest since you can regenerate Chansey's chip damage and could run out of PP.

TankLax (aka SamGSCLax)

Ice Beam / Body Slam / Psychic / Double-Edge / Surf
Reflect
Amnesia
Rest

This Lax walls everything except users of Swords Dance or autocrit moves (barring the rare double-crit from Zapdos/Tauros/Gengar/Starmie/Zam), but it's vulnerable to PP-stall tactics and freeze wars. The various attacks represent different ways of dealing with that issue; Ice Beam aims to freeze Chansey, Starmie and Slowbro, but is walled by Rest Lapras/Cloyster; Body Slam aims to paralyse Chansey, Starmie, and ReflectZam, but is walled by Gengar, Rest Rhydon, Counter Chansey and Withdraw/Reflect Slowbro; Double-Edge allows easier use of Rest to evade PP-stall, and can 2HKO Chansey, but is walled by Starmie, ReflectZam, Gengar, Rest Rhydon, Counter Chansey and Withdraw Slowbro; Surf has a lot of PP and is boosted by Amnesia, but is walled by Starmie, Chansey, Rest Lapras, Slowbro, and Rest Exeggutor; Psychic has its wallbreaking Special fall chance, but is truly walled by Slowbro or by two or more of Chansey, Alakazam, and Starmie.

[jorgen]

There's also plain old RestLax without Reflect. Generally it uses Hyper Beam or Selfdestruct.

Also where the Counter Lax at?

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 5, 2014 5:45:28 GMT -8 jorgen said:

There's also plain old RestLax without Reflect. Generally it uses Hyper Beam or Selfdestruct.

Also where the Counter Lax at?

Forgot CounterLax. Will add.

Is RestLax without Reflect or Amnesia truly viable? The only things it can sleep on gainfully are Chansey, Gengar, and STABless Starmie, as everything else guarantees at least a 4HKO.

[jorgen]

I've used non-Reflect RestLax before. In fact I used it almost exclusively when I was in a phase where I believed that all Snorlax needed Rest. The idea is that it lets you come in on Chansey forever. Generally I ran SelfDestruct for those instances where Resting wasn't really possible, though Hyper Beam is definitely viable too.

[Crystal_]

To be honest, I wouldn't separate them in different sets if they play very similarly in practice. I'm not denying the fact that the definition of (move)set implies that they're all different sets, but making slashes is a better way to illustrate which of those sets play similarly and which don't. If anything, you can differentiate between three "ways to play Snorlax":

• Rest + Reflect + Amnesia
• Every other Rest moveset
• Selfdestruct (aka Standard)

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 6, 2014 7:20:58 GMT -8 Crystal_ said:

To be honest, I wouldn't separate them in different sets if they play very similarly in practice. I'm not denying the fact that the definition of (move)set implies that they're all different sets, but making slashes is a better way to illustrate which of those sets play similarly and which don't. If anything, you can differentiate between three "ways to play Snorlax":

• Rest + Reflect + Amnesia
• Every other Rest moveset
• Selfdestruct (aka Standard)

It's my maths obsession coming out. I hate seeing sets where there are a ton of slashes but some combinations of those slashes are dumb or some viable stuff isn't mentioned.

[Isa]

Can we discuss the merits of these sets as well?

Standard Lax with three attacks + SelfDestruct is obviously very good. I'd argue that few teams become worse by filling out their last spot with it, it's instantly offensive and threatening. It's probably the overall best and most splashable set (and hence, standard).

CounterLax is a set I personally like, with Counter over Hyper Beam or Self-Destruct (being unable to hit Gengar and the Rocks is a big disadvantage, so EQ is needed). However, in order to be better than regular Lax you need to Counter a Body Slam/Hyper Beam from the normals, OR predict a Body Slam from Lapras or something similarly silly. Then there's of course the gimmicks - come in on SToss from (preferably paralyzed) Zam, use Counter as it switches, let their Golem/Egg/Gengar take over 50% damage. I think that this scenario is most commonly seen when you have Zam ditto leads, so that's probably a good partner. Overall though, it feels too gimmicky to be truly reliable.

Reflect+Rest is a solid set. If I had to choose one Lax I have lost the most games to by percentage, this would probably be it. The main issue is that I (used to) don't run Reflect Zam, Starmie, Cloyster or Lapras, which I'd probably call the four biggest checks, maybe Egg as fifth. I'd never run this set vs. Lutra or Marcoasd, because they run Rest Lapras and Starmie/Reflect Zam, but otherwise I think this set has a lot of potential - versus unprepared teams it is a big pain. Main advantage is that Snorlax can more or less force fights versus specialists, who otherwise tend to dodge him - for some teams this is a big positive. I'd partner this with either Zapdos (forces Starmie/Lapras/Cloyster paralysis) or Rhydon (hits Exeggutor nicely and somewhat reliably) or both.

MonoLax is my personal favorite set - become invincible and avoid getting CH'd, win game. If your opponent has Gengar, it's not doing anything at all. Rocks are also a hindrance, and Reflect users might cause problems. However, if a team lacks those, and Snorlax gets the appropriate T1 boost, it's a scary wall in front of you that will tow you down. You MIGHT be successful trying to PP drain it with Starmie using Recover in conjunction with Thunder Wave, but I'd rather not do that. Rest Lapras/Cloyster are probably the best counters, but Snorlax can Rest away the damage taken and get healthy, then switch out once Lapras/Cloyster are worn down/asleep. Partners well with Pokémon that can give damage to Gengar, but also force Gengar to boom. It's also the most late-game oriented Lax out there. I'd run Lead Zam and Chansey with this Lax.

I'll continue this later when I get the time.

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 29, 2014 9:11:48 GMT -8 Isa said:

Standard Lax with three attacks + SelfDestruct is obviously very good. I'd argue that few teams become worse by filling out their last spot with it, it's instantly offensive and threatening. It's probably the overall best and most splashable set (and hence, standard).

Right. The power and extreme versatility of this set are the main reason I consider Snorlax just as good as Tauros. It will always at least trade unless you make a mistake, which is just phenomenal. This is why I look at Showdown's 44% Snorlax usage and say "these guys suck". The only real reason not to run this Snorlax, after all, is if you're running another Snorlax set.

Reflect+Rest is a solid set. If I had to choose one Lax I have lost the most games to by percentage, this would probably be it. The main issue is that I (used to) don't run Reflect Zam, Starmie, Cloyster or Lapras, which I'd probably call the three biggest checks, maybe Egg as fourth. I'd never run this set vs. Lutra or Marcoasd, because they run Rest Lapras and Starmie/Reflect Zam, but otherwise I think this set has a lot of potential - versus unprepared teams it is a big pain. Main advantage is that Snorlax can more or less force fights versus specialists, who otherwise tend to dodge him - for some teams this is a big positive. I'd partner this with either Zapdos (forces Starmie/Lapras/Cloyster paralysis) or Rhydon (hits Exeggutor nicely and somewhat reliably) or both.

Yup, it's a good set and is one of the biggest threats to teams lacking in special attackers. The best check after ReflectZam/Mie/bulky Ices would be Reflect Chansey with Ice Beam, I think. Switch in when it Rests, throw up Reflect, and freeze it with little danger.

MonoLax is my personal favorite set - become invincible and avoid getting CH'd, win game. If your opponent has Gengar, it's not doing anything at all. Rocks are also a hindrance, and Reflect users might cause problems. However, if a team lacks those, and Snorlax gets the appropriate T1 boost, it's a scary wall in front of you that will tow you down. You MIGHT be successful trying to PP drain it with Starmie using Recover in conjunction with Thunder Wave, but I'd rather not do that. Rest Lapras/Cloyster is probably the best counters, but Snorlax can Rest away the damage taken and get healthy, then switch out once Lapras/Cloyster are worn down/asleep. Partners well with Pokémon that can give damage to Gengar, but also force Gengar to boom. It's also the most late-game oriented Lax out there. I'd run Lead Zam and Chansey with this Lax.

Ice Beam MonoLax works a treat if your opponent doesn't have an Ice-type and Freeze Clause isn't on (or if it is on, but they don't have a Water either). Everything that isn't Chansey, a Water, or an Ice is bulldozed by +6 Ice Beam, and the former two are vulnerable to freezes. I would run it more, but I prefer Withdraw Slowbro since it doesn't come with the opportunity cost of giving up standard Lax and isn't quite as vulnerable to Zam crits (Zam's usage on both sims at the moment is >60%; on Showdown it's used more than Chansey and Lax, which is just silly).

I'll continue this later when I get the time.

Please do!

[marcoasd]

I totally agree with you. IMHO there's no reason to deviate (use Amnesia) from standard Lax or Reflect/Rest (at least in g1/laddering): let Slowbro do those things... The only thing is, I really like Counter, and that could be the only different move I'd use in that sense.
But we all know that Snorlax would already need 5 slots to add both Earthquake/Surf.
In that sense, we already mentioned Mega Kick over BSlam and HBeam, but Body Slam is so good that the accuracy argument can be avoided.

Lastly: the only reason not to run Snorlax is that he has no resistances. If you want to use a Victrebeel/a water + Golem (for Zapdos), then you have a lead, Egg (maybe not if you use Bel, but Egg is too good), Chansey and Tauros, with no place for Snorlax.

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 29, 2014 23:28:03 GMT -8 marcoasd said:

Lastly: the only reason not to run Snorlax is that he has no resistances. If you want to use a Victrebeel/a water + Golem (for Zapdos), then you have a lead, Egg (maybe not if you use Bel, but Egg is too good), Chansey and Tauros, with no place for Snorlax.

Victreebel + Golem + Exeggutor is 3 Ice weaknesses and no Ice resistances. Not a good idea.

The best Water is Starmie, which both doesn't need as much protection from Zapdos (it's got a decent chance of winning the straight 1v1, never mind Zapdos having to switch in) and is a perfectly serviceable lead; nevertheless, I see your point (though in the case of a Zam + Starmie team, I'd argue Tauros and Chansey are probably more dispensable than Snorlax since you've already got great speed and recovery between those two and you need a durable switch-in to Chansey).

[Isa]

I'm a bit hungover, but I'll just say this:

I am not a fan of Surf on Snorlax, doesn't matter if it replaces EQ or HBeam/Boom. If Surf hits Golem - great. However if you mispredict and your opponent goes to Exeggutor, suddenly you're in a position where Golem will NEVER go away unless he wants to. I think Earthquake is a better way to deal with Golem. If you mispredict once with it, Golem is still likely to switch in on you in the future. Snorlax is the biggest Golem killer out there in practice specifically because it's one of the few things it feels comfortable switching in on.
Moreover, the only real reason to run Surf on Lax is if you want to target Golem. You can just run it randomly, but it's not ideal unless you can capitalize, which means including a Zapper/Jolteon on your team in most cases. So if you mispredict with a Surf, not only are you making sure Golem is likely to stay around, you're also giving away a lot of intel to your opponent about his team.

And the killer: Even if you use Surf on Golem as it comes in, it doesn't even OHKO - Snorlax Surf vs. Golem: 302-356 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[marcoasd]

Mar 30, 2014 0:49:54 GMT -8 magic9mushroom said:

Victreebel + Golem + Exeggutor is 3 Ice weaknesses and no Ice resistances. Not a good idea.

The best Water is Starmie, which both doesn't need as much protection from Zapdos (it's got a decent chance of winning the straight 1v1, never mind Zapdos having to switch in) and is a perfectly serviceable lead; nevertheless, I see your point (though in the case of a Zam + Starmie team, I'd argue Tauros and Chansey are probably more dispensable than Snorlax since you've already got great speed and recovery between those two and you need a durable switch-in to Chansey).

Yeah take Bel out of that line, bar a weird team.
We all know Tauros is hardly dispensable, as a special revenge kill is not that reliable: in that team I'd drop Chansey anyway.

About Surf: yes, maybe Blizzard is better: 2HKO on rocks, while still hitting well Egg and has that chance to freeze, while still ridiculous vs Gengar.
As a noob, I was right about that.

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 30, 2014 5:49:28 GMT -8 Isa said:

I'm a bit hungover, but I'll just say this:

I am not a fan of Surf on Snorlax, doesn't matter if it replaces EQ or HBeam/Boom. If Surf hits Golem - great. However if you mispredict and your opponent goes to Exeggutor, suddenly you're in a position where Golem will NEVER go away unless he wants to. I think Earthquake is a better way to deal with Golem. If you mispredict once with it, Golem is still likely to switch in on you in the future. Snorlax is the biggest Golem killer out there in practice specifically because it's one of the few things it feels comfortable switching in on.
Moreover, the only real reason to run Surf on Lax is if you want to target Golem. You can just run it randomly, but it's not ideal unless you can capitalize, which means including a Zapper/Jolteon on your team in most cases. So if you mispredict with a Surf, not only are you making sure Golem is likely to stay around, you're also giving away a lot of intel to your opponent about his team.

And the killer: Even if you use Surf on Golem as it comes in, it doesn't even OHKO - Snorlax Surf vs. Golem: 302-356 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Indeed, you should never try to Surf Golem on the switch. Where it comes in handy is removing a Golem that's switched into your Body Slam already - Body Slam + Surf is a likely 2HKO, and they probably aren't going to switch Golem out if they switched it in.

[cheese]

Never is a strong word, there are of course a few cases where Surfing on the switch is a good idea:

-If Golem has already taken a nick somewhere.
-If Golem is already paralysed.

I agree that Surf Lax isn't one of the better sets though. Earthquake is so much more versatile! Surf is there to counter specific pokemon (Goldon) that aren't on every team. It doesn't OHKO and Golem can always boom for ~70% on Lax anyway. And like others have said, mis-predicting basically amounts to a wasted turn.

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 30, 2014 20:12:50 GMT -8 cheese said:

-If Golem is already paralysed.

If it's already paralysed, then there's no point predicting the switch.

Prediction:

T1
Noob sent out GOLEM!
SNORLAX used SURF! It's super effective!
T2
SNORLAX used [any attack]!
Enemy GOLEM fainted!

No prediction:

T1
Noob sent out GOLEM!
SNORLAX used BODY SLAM! It's not very effective...
T2
SNORLAX used SURF! It's super effective!
Enemy GOLEM fainted!

The latter, however, has better results if they send in something that isn't Golem, or don't switch at all.

[kel9901]

m9m, why am I thinking azure heights now...

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 30, 2014 23:54:25 GMT -8 kel9901 said:

m9m, why am I thinking azure heights now...

I don't know. Why are you thinking Azure Heights?

[jorgen]

I dunno guys, I mean sure, Surf is a limited move, but at the same time, it means you don't end up trading Lax for a Rock. There's an obvious opportunity cost but I'd say it's worthwhile to pay that cost more frequently than it currently is.

[magic9mushroom]

Mar 31, 2014 6:49:42 GMT -8 jorgen said:

I dunno guys, I mean sure, Surf is a limited move, but at the same time, it means you don't end up trading Lax for a Rock. There's an obvious opportunity cost but I'd say it's worthwhile to pay that cost more frequently than it currently is.

I agree, it's definitely a decent option. Just don't be dumb with it and hey presto you can remove their Normal resist and then boom.

(Then again, if SurfLax was standard, this exact logic would hold true for QuakeLax. I don't even know, I just pulled an all-nighter and I'm rambling.)

[cheese]

If it's already paralysed, then there's no point predicting the switch.

Cheers, I think I'd lost a few IQ points when I typed that. :s
Rhydon isn't quite a guaranteed 2HKO with BS + Surf, but even then you'll be better off BS on the switch more often than not.

[piexplode]

So.. has this changed recently at all? Mega Kick's definitely better than at the original time of writing; paraslam probably affects that a ton. Also BSlam/Reflect/HBeam/Rest is a cool lure but has obvious costs.

Also I'm curious where the names for some of the sets come from xD I'm used to naming Fishlax, Surflax, Tanklax, and Amnesialax; Fish is the standard bslam/hb/boom/eq, surf is >hb or boom, tank is reflect + eq or amnesia, amnesia is kinda anything that uses amnesia ;~;

also fuk bslam/amnesia/ib (or blizz)/rest? lax that thing near enough 6-0s my main team xD