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Post by Actaeon on Jun 18, 2014 17:32:55 GMT -8
Thanks Isa, will change those 'facts'. Of course, the exact exaplanations concerning the reasons why certain Pokémon are moved up a tier will be most relevant in their individual analysis. Nevertheless, remarks in the Tier Section should be correct Also, it might seem random what I actually describe about the types in section 3.3, but I decided to write approximately one page per type and if there is not much to be said about a certain type in general, I say more about the Pokémon that actually have that type, with respect to tiers and their effectiveness or abilities. I tried not to make the analyses too involved yet. Cheers
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Post by piexplode on Jun 21, 2014 0:44:21 GMT -8
It says sacrifizing on page 43/section 2.7.11 should say sacrificing. Likewise it says dedcuted on page 44/section 2.7.15. Page 78 'unprepared to deale with Swords Dance-boosted' should be deal.
Edit: Also under the discussion of the partial-trapping clause, it is really really important to mention that during the first simulators, wrap's mechanics were too difficult to implement, and thus the original metagame developed without it. Thus also at that time the clause was implemented not due to fairness, etc. but due to complexity of implementation. In fact, as I understand it, Pokemon Showdown still hasn't implemented it fully correctly.
Further Edit: As a whole we really need another tier discussion; what should and shouldn't be OU, both in a wrap and non-wrap metagame. Also, were RBY tiers ever decided by usage? Obviously in later generations, having less that ~3.4% usage made you drop a tier. Why is it OU/BL/UU/NU rather than OU/UU/RU or LU/NU? And these would differ too depending on whether the environment is wrap/non-wrap.
Edit Again: Does Counter affect ghost types? You explicitly contradict yourself by saying it does and doesn't during different parts of the book.
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Post by Actaeon on Jun 21, 2014 3:05:02 GMT -8
Thanks for your feedback, piexplode. The remark about partial-trapping moves is relevant indeed, I didn't even know that.
Counter affects Ghost-types, so I made a mistake in the footnote on page 83. Night Shade ís probably better than Seismic Toss then, because the PP is not an issue anyway.
Will edit these things accordingly.
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Post by marcoasd on Jun 21, 2014 3:23:16 GMT -8
Nice job atm, can't wait for the most important part (battling). I suppose counter works on Gar switching in; a remarkable fact is that Counter can miss (i missed due to accuracy -1 after a Kinesis). I supposed it can't miss (Just like Rest). What about 255 miss chance? Is it related to damage dealt or something? It's a legit question now.
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Post by piexplode on Jun 21, 2014 3:56:23 GMT -8
Well it mentions about Swift never missing, maybe you should have said that rather than Rest marco? I guess it's to do with that 0-255 accuracy check thing, which explains why we have 255s. Can counter 255? You say it missed at -1 accuracy, and.. it's not used often enough that you might have seen a 255, i.e. not too improbable to never have witnessed the event, should it be possible. Edit: I am also willing to help with information on the 11 pokemon in RBY LC UU, since i've started playing the tier today, and by the time you've reached that point I should have a fairly understanding of each pokemon's capabilities. [I'll even have stuff to say about weedle and caterpie and magikarp that aren't just like lol joke pokemon] Hell I'm tempted to write RBY LC UU analyses after my tour is completed, if people think it might be a cool idea.
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Post by Actaeon on Jun 21, 2014 14:49:12 GMT -8
Counter has 'regular' accuracy of ~100% so it can 255 like most other moves. Interestingly, it can also critically hit but when this happens it does not modify the damage.
Little Cup will not be in chapter three like Uber/OU/BL/UU/NU, but rather in the fifth/sixth chapter that contains other alternative metagames (containing changes to the game made by players) like RBYPlus. Of course, any articles are appreciated, because I am not familiar with those games but I will try to get involved once I reach that point.
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Post by marcoasd on Jun 22, 2014 0:26:55 GMT -8
About LC UU I'll take a closer look at Weedle etc... before the tournament, but i don't think it can make it, as it's walled by the nidos (not to mention magikarp). There's almost nothing to decide about the 6.
About Counter (lol@CH) I've never witnessed a miss (and that's weird, cause I've seen a decent number). In any case I suppose that writing 100% accuracy, the 255 miss is regular and not depending on the number of damage (like Recover)
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Post by piexplode on Jun 22, 2014 5:04:41 GMT -8
I dunno I'm thinking if you went for a really heavily physical team, caterpie could be usable. Okay, so its main attack is like half the power of body slam, BUT it has pure bug typing, which means it's not weak to psychic [iirc], and resists ground, as well as having a usable speed tier that doesn't require many things paralysed (just weakened) to sweep. Thus the only pokemon that can hit is SE are ekans [with rock slide] and cubone [with rock slide I think] and jigglypuff [with the never run fire blast], and yet has similar bulk to the nidos. Normal has perfect neutral coverage.. I still don't think it's truly viable but of the 3 super-garbage pokemon it is the one with the most potential regarding its current moveset. If only it got an usable Bug STAB [weedle wants it too] to hit the resident poisons hard [something stronger than leech life and pin missile please]. Maybe in a later-generation bottom tier it might have a use. Weedle is just totally outclassed in every aspect by venonat, and magikarp just lacks the attack stat to use its only attack, and impressive speed and usable bulk. Thoughts on Zubat and Nidoran-F?
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Jun 22, 2014 5:19:28 GMT -8
Let's take RBY LC UU discussion somewhere else than in this topic.
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Post by LucasBM on Jul 7, 2014 16:53:22 GMT -8
Congrats for the brilliant move! I hope you're still working on it.
I have just started reading and I think there's a typo on pdf page 15, where you state "X and L are the base experience..." but there's no X in the referred formula. I suppose you meant B.
Keep up with it! I'll keep reading and report anything of help.
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Post by During Summer on Aug 18, 2014 15:07:28 GMT -8
pag 96-97?
sob, i read this guide only for this two pages ;__;
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Post by piexplode on Dec 28, 2014 9:45:15 GMT -8
With oras, the total number of pokemon (mentioned on page 4) has since changed due to ORAS's release page 24 will need updating due to recent discoveries of Crystal_'s pge 29 needs to update Psychic's chance to specfall (I think? not sure), and that and page 30 need updates with respect to the type interactions with burn and paralysis, etc. page 45 needs an update [Counter] www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftTalHMjPRY explains it tidily at the very start of the video; rewording what's here is probably useful. www.dragonflycave.com/rbystatmods.aspx has some good extra info on badge boosting (not sure if you need it though)
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Post by Actaeon on May 31, 2015 1:51:22 GMT -8
Hi guys, it has been a long time again.
Since the metagame change I kind of gave up RBY altogether, because the fact we all didn't even know the mechanics made me feel very sad. My knowledge of the new metagame is - of course - insufficient for writing a book.
Nevertheless, I decided to finish what I started, get a look into the new meta (I will not play tournaments or play much in general, but just enough to know the ins and outs - together with your knowledge that should work to be enough), and adjust the erroneous information so far. You will soon receive an update, so please watch this page!
Greetings and apologies for my sudden vanishment. I will be on a little more so we can battle/talk!
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Post by marcoasd on Jun 2, 2015 0:59:20 GMT -8
A final book as a storical heritage of what RBY has been for around 15 years is a great thing, and there are very few things about new RBY around... The metagame is a little bit different, but it doesn't take long to be learned.
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Post by Raish on Jun 3, 2015 6:22:08 GMT -8
Good to see you back Actaeon! You know that most of the non-major servers haven't updated to new meta! I still play old meta with people on random servers every now and then so let me know if you ever want to do that!
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Post by piexplode on Jun 4, 2015 6:39:54 GMT -8
I'm writing an article for The Smog (Smogon's online web magazine) about the new RBY metagame, I'll send you a copy when I finish writing it! It should be some quality in-depth material. Marco's also written quite a bit on the new metagame, albeit in italian.
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Post by Actaeon on Jun 6, 2015 9:32:33 GMT -8
Thanks! ANY article, in any tier (also the 'custum' ones like Little Cup and RBYPlus) is appreciated. Even if small/incomplete, I can use anything as a good starting point. Currently I'm making the necessary changes with respect to the new mechanics. When that is done, I will post an update up to and including paragraph 3.4, "General Battling Guidelines".
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Post by Actaeon on Jun 6, 2015 14:31:23 GMT -8
As promised, here is a link to the newest version of the book. www.filedropper.com/rbyIt covers the main mechanic changes in paragraph 2.10, which is almost entirely based on the dragonflycave website, as this was the source that provided the most complete information about it. I also added "Healing moves" to the move section that deals with the "mod 256" Recover/Softboiled glitch (which also applies to Rest in a slightly different way!), which I forgot. Still looking for the page where Crystal_ completely describes Counter, I was directed there once but forgot where to find it. In the movie you posted, piexplode, it is mainly about the Trading Desync, which is interesting but I know there is another page that describes the 'usual' mechanics better. Open to (critical) comments, as always!
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Post by marcoasd on Jun 6, 2015 14:57:17 GMT -8
In my opinion, you should complete the book the way it was originally supposed to be: battling guidelines etc, the way it was before paraslam tragedy. That's the metagame everybody has been playing for 15 years, and we played too (at least for the majority of our RBY carreers).
I'd put new mechs and new things in a final part of the book, following a chronological order. As Piex leaked, I wrote a guide for the italian community (as far as i know, a guy is bothering translating it as I'm just too lazy atm). I think it's pretty accurate, but the new metagame is brand new and I can't tell I'm 100% sure of what I wrote. I see active players competing in a lot of tours writing many things about new RBY.
Even if I'm scared to download the book as the last time I did I somehow messed up the laptop I used, I'm interested: I wish there will be an ultimate heritage of old RBY around. Said that, it's your book.
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Post by Actaeon on Jun 6, 2015 16:44:01 GMT -8
I understand that completely. The changes have brought me quite some sadness as with everybody on this forum I presume. But I cannot simply write the book as if nothing happened and ignore the changes until some last chapter where I would have to admit the whole thing is a lie and untrue to the original games, further emphasizing the fact that we all did not even see the "glitches" for so long.
Therefore I want to write the analyses and everything from this point on being applicable to the new metagame. Of course I will try to make all remarks necessary to give light on the old metagame from a historical point of view throughout the whole book, both to reflect my homesickness and to give the reader the hard-to-explain 'set-in-stone RBY feeling' we all have/had before the discoveries.
I think this is the only way to make a compromise, and cannot continue writing the book without this. Writing the book is also a personal thing, to process/digest the huge influence Pokémon has had on my life in general. That is my most important drive to finish it.
Cheers
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Post by piexplode on Jun 7, 2015 6:06:22 GMT -8
I think w.r.t. the staples of OU.. this is starting to change, according to some players (such as myself and marco). I'm almost tempted to say, Jolteon and Golem should be considered OU, but Rhydon not. I actually use Moltres more than Golem though at the moment. Also Slowbro might not be OU.. it's really developing a lot at the moment! Of course some people probably will disagree (I think Isa would think it ridiculous probably, that Rhydon should leave OU or that Golem and Rhydon be in different tiers) and this is down to experiences I guess, and metatopes.
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Post by Raish on Jun 8, 2015 21:40:41 GMT -8
Thanks for sending in the new version! I'll take a look at it at some point, but life is definitely taking away from my gaming time right now.
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Post by Actaeon on Jun 10, 2015 3:16:43 GMT -8
I'm planning on rewriting paragraph 2.10 as a whole, because it's not that clear right now. I'd love to make a flow chart of the events that change stat modification w.r.t. burn and paralysis. Did anyone do that already or does anyone have a good idea how to present this?
Tonight I'll post a small update with a few new things in the OU paragraph. I described the "big 4" largely as they were in the old meta, but with a few changes I think it should still represent the current metagame.
Have been doing some battles and even from a low number of battles I can say the meta HAS changed a lot, the most influential things I have stumbled upon is how good Chansey actually is, Exeggutor being used less, Jynx more and Slowbro is pretty ridiculous, outspeeding things. Right now I am doubting whether to actually write the analyses. Maybe I'll just write them old-style like Marcoasd suggested, and then adjust them when the meta has 'stabilized' again.
Do you agree on that vision?
By the way, I suspect (and hope) the changes will (fortunately) play less part in the lower tiers, because they don't revolve around Normal types as much (and Raticate (UU), Wigglytuff (NU) usually got paralyzed in some other way). Not sure about BL...
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Post by piexplode on Jun 10, 2015 16:26:53 GMT -8
I'd write them old-style. Also i think Slowbro is worse than before, not better. !
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Post by Actaeon on Jun 11, 2015 8:55:23 GMT -8
Will do! Thanks for the feedback.
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Post by Mantishuffle on Jun 12, 2015 14:41:19 GMT -8
Also i think Slowbro is worse than before, not better. ! I don't mean to deviate from the topic, but I would like to know why you think Slowbro is worse. I don't mean to say he is better, but with the new mechanics of Status ailment lowered stat compounding (or salsc?) Slowbro can most often make its first victim slower than him even if he is paralyzed with one use of Amnesia. And he can still switch into Tauros Hyper Beam with at least 90% HP to paralyze it. Slowbro is pretty much more likely than not able to paralyze anything healthy that stays in except for ground types which usually don't stay in. I think that is a great trait that has gone unchanged.
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Post by piexplode on Jun 12, 2015 21:40:50 GMT -8
Because it's really been a huge shift towards electrics being run, golem over rhydon, tbolt on starmie (which is v common), etc altogether and the fact that the mons that appreciate its support most, such as rhydon, have generally gotten worse overall too.
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Post by gunbladelad on Oct 12, 2015 20:58:17 GMT -8
I know I don't pop in here folks (and post even more seldom) but I wanted to have a peek at this book and the link doesn't connect to any download seemingly.
On a side-note (somewhat related) GGFan claims to be working on his own one - although I've got my suspicions there.
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Post by piexplode on Oct 13, 2015 5:56:17 GMT -8
Well I know golden gyarados has proof-read it and enjoyed it, so I suspect it'd be an interesting read. Don't foresee Isa touching it with a bargepole but at least it discusses mainly really early eras which we don't know so much about nowadays.
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Post by Golden Gyarados on Oct 21, 2015 6:20:34 GMT -8
Yeah GGFan's is a memoir, so it's a fascinating read if you want to get into his head and see what he was thinking/his perspective on the early years, but one of my big pieces of feedback for him was to include more information about the meta itself in those years. It's definitely not a guide or reference material for the game.
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