Min Attack calculations

[magic9mushroom]

So we all know that a Pokemon with no physical attacks, to be optimised, should have as little Attack as possible (to decrease self-confusion damage). But the values that control Attack, IVs and EVs (aka DVs and Stat Exp) have knock-on effects on the other stats thanks to the way RBY is designed, so it's worthwhile to calculate the minimum Attack attainable while preserving other stats at maximum.

IVs

The issue here is that the HP IV is calculated from the four other IVs. The HP IV is, to be precise, the concatenation of the Atk, Def, Spd, and Spe IVs' least significant digits. As such, the least possible Attack IV while preserving other stats is 1 (0 would reduce the HP IV from 15 to 7). This gives a reduction of 28 in Attack compared to a max-IV Pokemon.

EVs

The issue here is that EVs are gained from the base stats of Pokemon fought, and no Pokemon has a 0 base stat for Attack. So to preserve maximisation of the other stats, enemy Pokemon must be fought, which will give a nonzero Attack EV.

Here's my calculations of the minimum:

max EV = 65535
max useful EV = 63504
max vitamin EV = 25600
Must raise HP, Def, Spe, Spc EVs to 63504 from 25600 (37904) while keeping Atk EV as low as possible (Chansey + Magikarp)

689 Magikarp + 2 Chansey would give 37905 Def, 13990 Spc
Replace 1 Magikarp with 11 Chansey to give same Def, +1135 Spc
21 substitutions: 668 Magikarp + 233 Chansey
HP: 71610
Def: 37905
Spe: 65090
Spc: 37825 -> add 1 Chansey
668 Magikarp + 234 Chansey
HP: 71860 (enough even without vitamins)
Def: 37910 (enough, just)
Spe: 65140 (enough)
Spc: 37930 (enough, just)
MIN ATK EV WITH ALL OTHERS MAXED: 7850.

Min attack improvement due to EVs with all others maxed: 22 (41 below max)

Total

The total reduction in Attack from these two optimisations is simply the sum of them: 28 + 41 = 69.

If you face someone who has Pokemon with an Attack score lower than this with their other stats maxed, they are cheating.

[jorgen]

Ah, I see how you did it. When I tried this a few years back, I wanted to see if I could determine the bound without knowing a priori that it would have to be some combination of Chansey and Magikarp. So to make that tractable, I used a greedy algorithm to maximize the ratio of (2nd-lowest stat exp)/(Attack stat exp) for the first 100 mons or so, then simply repeated that 100-mon regimen. I royally fucked it up somewhere, I forget how (Now that I think about it, for that thread, I probably capped regimen size at 10, which would really distort the estimate of the optimal Chansey:Magikarp ratio).

Anyway, Chansey isn't necessarily optimal with minimal Attack Stat Exp. In stall 1-v-1s against other Chansey, you want that Struggle to hurt! Granted, that's less common than fighting Lapras, but still.

[piexplode]

You also need to consider if you want to drop your other stats slightly for a drop in attack, and the legality considering that.
Good stuff tho.

[magic9mushroom]

May 25, 2014 6:06:51 GMT -8 jorgen said:

Ah, I see how you did it. When I tried this a few years back, I wanted to see if I could determine the bound without knowing a priori that it would have to be some combination of Chansey and Magikarp. So to make that tractable, I used a greedy algorithm to maximize the ratio of (2nd-lowest stat exp)/(Attack stat exp) for the first 100 mons or so, then simply repeated that 100-mon regimen. I royally fucked it up somewhere, I forget how (Now that I think about it, for that thread, I probably capped regimen size at 10, which would really distort the estimate of the optimal Chansey:Magikarp ratio).

Anyway, Chansey isn't necessarily optimal with minimal Attack Stat Exp. In stall 1-v-1s against other Chansey, you want that Struggle to hurt! Granted, that's less common than fighting Lapras, but still.

Well, Chansey's optimal by a long way for everything except Defense, and Magikarp's optimal for Defense while also being second-best at Chansey's otherwise worst stat, Speed. Makes it easy.

[Mantishuffle]

And here I thought that EVs in RBY were gained in the same manner as in future generations; meaning that every pokemon gave certain EVs when knocked out depending on their species (for example: Zubat giving 1 Speed point).It is good to know that this is not the case, otherwise it would be legal to have a Chansey with 17 Attack and still have every other stat maximized.

It sucks that we (still) cannot change DVs on the Android.

[magic9mushroom]

May 27, 2014 18:01:52 GMT -8 Mantishuffle said:

And here I thought that EVs in RBY were gained in the same manner as in future generations; meaning that every pokemon gave certain EVs when knocked out depending on their species (for example: Zubat giving 1 Speed point).It is good to know that this is not the case

Well, technically it is the case - the EVs gained are equal to the opponent's base stats, and thus are indeed dependent on its species. The difference is that you get EVs for all stats from every battle, with only the relative quantity varying.

[piexplode]

I remember reading some discussion on smogon at some point I think involving EV training in older gens.. I'm loathe to actually hunt down the thread again.. does beating a pokemon using several members of your team affect your EV gain (and can this lead to reducing attack EVs obtainable by chansey?)