Dig/Fly

[piexplode]

I'm ICBB on Smogon or otherwise I'd post this there.

Imo:
Dig/Fly should be banned as standard over the duration of SPL.
After SPL is complete, or near-complete, somewhere a suspect test of Dig/Fly should be conducted. I'm not sure if they're OP or not (I can think of reasons why it mightn't be and I can also think of scenarios where they might be) so I feel a suspect test would be worthy, but SPL makes this not sensible to conduct this instance?

Thoughts?

NB for those who don't know, when you full paralyse after having used Dig/Fly, on the second turn when you're in the air or under the ground, you remain invulnerable until you switch or use the move again.

[Raish]

I think if anyone goes for that, they'd just lose the respect of the entire community. Not something I'm too worried about seeing.

[piexplode]

I guess you could consider it a bit of a 'cheese' strategy, but then a lot of players hold a not-much-higher opinion of Partial Trapping. I don't see why anyone should lose respect for using it, it's a part of the game

[marcoasd]

That's plain bad as the standard, as the only way to counter it is using Swift (and hence unlikely to win the matchup). Also, as far as I remember, the game might crash- but it's been at least 10 years from the last time I was link battling using Dig/Fly.

It would be an huge deterrent against Thunder Wave, and good for some unrated game, but nothing more.

[Lutra]

It's similar to the OHKO move situation but more extreme in my opinion. If it works, you're massively advantaged, but it could more easily mess you up. Just like OHKOs, it should be banned because it renders skill useless the slightly unlikely (but by no means rare) time it works, not because it's overpowered on average.

Avoiding paralyzing in case of Slowbro seems a ridiculous change to the metagame, just like how Stall is killed by OHKO moves, so we can't go down that route.

I'm not sure I could trust battling on Showdown anyway, with crazy bugs over the last week.

[CrapAtRBY]

If Smogon thought no freeze clause was worthy of mass derision then they aren't even going to entertain anything outside of "ban dig/fly" or "unimplement the glitch", it's only temporarily implemented right now whilst they're in the process of fixing up RBY completely 

From Joim:
Note: Fly/Dig glitch is currently implemented as it's a side effect of making the sim work the same way it does in-game.

[Isa]

Since this is a PS! only issue, this is negligible. PS is far too glitched/unreliable to be used during SPL either way.

[piexplode]

No, afaik the only remaining glitch is with toxic/leech seed damage. PO's still not restarted the server, so currently, PS is more reliable than PO lol

[marcoasd]

Jan 4, 2015 8:10:48 GMT -8 piexplode said:

No, afaik the only remaining glitch is with toxic/leech seed damage. PO's still not restarted the server, so currently, PS is more reliable than PO lol

If you think that Fly/Dig is more negligible than paraslams, yeah. Hence no.

[piexplode]

You can avoid dig/fly in gentleman's agreement, and I started this thread in part to support getting a quick ban on Dig/Fly before SPL. (I would have posted on Smogon but I can't post threads whilst I'm I COULD BE BANNED!)

[marcoasd]

Yeah, Dig/Fly= DQ looks pretty viable after all. If it's the only thing not working, that's fine, but I don't know about other things. Counter maybe

[Isa]

Every time Joim fixes one issue, another pops up. He said that RBY was completely bug free roughly one week ago and since then he has had to fix ten bugs, only for RBY - and not all of them were in place originally, instead they've been the result of tailoring with other bugs, sometimes not even RBY bugs.

PO is stable and we know what we're getting. The same cannot be said for PS by any means. I'm using PO all the way during this SPL.

[piexplode]

Still, 2 days before, PO's not implemented the update yet, and with PS the quicker you find them the quicker you squash them; I've done a few battles, but mostly CrapAtRBY is doing the work it seems. And this last bug'll probably be fixed in <24 hours and then unless you guys actually find anything else I think that it's done. I just played a match versus Plasmanta and Counter worked fine btw.

[Crystal_]

As far as I'm aware PS! hasn't implemented this glitch, right? Anyway, I'm following Joim's work on Github and he's working really hard as far as I can tell. He has fixed lots of bugs in recent days, even if some new issues pop up they also get fixed soon as far as I'm aware.

Also, yeah, I personally agree that this glitch shouldn't be implemented / should be banned. Even if unlikely, it's too broken when it does occur. Even if you actually have a recover / rest(?) user that can sit there and stall the invulnerable pokemon, it just makes the game so derp. What bothers me is that this is a very specific clause / ban unlike others like OHKO, Sleep, Evasion clause etc. The fly/dig glitch makes the game unplayable but maybe other stuff is brought up that doesn't really need to be banned and under the "we did the same with fly/dig" argument it goes through. The new gen mindset I definitely don't want in old gens.

[piexplode]

Conversing with marcoasd

SPOILER: Click to show

SPOILER: Click to show

(00:35) [Totoro]Piexplode: lol I just learnt
(00:35) [Totoro]Piexplode: how bad a curse
(00:35) [Totoro]Piexplode: porco dio is
(00:35) [Totoro]Piexplode: I went into the
(00:35) [Totoro]Piexplode: Italian room on PS
(00:35) [Totoro]Piexplode: just said those 2 words
(00:35) [Totoro]Piexplode: muted
(00:35) [Totoro]Piexplode: lol
(00:36) [Totoro]Piexplode: why do u think
(00:36) [Totoro]Piexplode: dig/fly
(00:36) [Totoro]Piexplode: is so powerful?
(00:36) [Totoro]Piexplode: lol
(00:36) Marcoasd: LOL
(00:36) Marcoasd: religious bitches there
(00:37) Marcoasd: or maybe just cause you said it multiple times
(00:37) Marcoasd: or maybe again cause it was so pointless
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: I said it once
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: I was about to say about
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: my friend being RO in there
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: cos I knew him from elsewhere
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: was muted too quick
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: to say another line
(00:37) Marcoasd: dig/fly is powerful because if you get lucky, you are invincible
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: then I spoke to the person who was muted
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: who explained it was
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: blasphemy
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: and then explained that
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: in Italy
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: you still care
(00:37) Marcoasd: lol
(00:37) [Totoro]Piexplode: about blasphemt
(00:38) [Totoro]Piexplode: and then my friend the RO
(00:38) [Totoro]Piexplode: agreeed when
(00:38) [Totoro]Piexplode: I told him the story
(00:38) Marcoasd: yeah
(00:38) Marcoasd: btw dig fly is plain stupid
(00:38) [Totoro]Piexplode: lol
(00:38) [Totoro]Piexplode: I don't think so
(00:38) [Totoro]Piexplode: what even uses it
(00:38) Marcoasd: as the standard
(00:38) [Totoro]Piexplode: and makes it OP
(00:38) [Totoro]Piexplode: slowbro is not OP with it
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: zapdos is maybe a teensy bit?
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: even still it doesn't
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: stay around super long
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: and sets designed around that
(00:39) Marcoasd: dig amnesia rest
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: don't do as much damage
(00:39) Marcoasd: lol
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: dig amnesia rest
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: u still
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: pp stall
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: and it can't
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: spread para
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: so it has to come in late
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: and if u have
(00:39) Marcoasd: and something that hits flying types
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: healthy chansey/starmie/alakazam
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: you still win
(00:39) Marcoasd: you can't hit it
(00:39) [Totoro]Piexplode: ice beam'd probably be deadliest and even still, freeze clause and you lose to lapras
(00:40) Marcoasd: charizard is better indeed
(00:40) [Totoro]Piexplode: flyzard
(00:40) [Totoro]Piexplode: how does that work?
(00:40) [Totoro]Piexplode: can it even survive long enough to manage it?
(00:40) Marcoasd: swords dance dig and body slam
(00:41) [Totoro]Piexplode: rest rhydon
(00:41) [Totoro]Piexplode: B]
(00:41) [Totoro]Piexplode: mm I guess still but
(00:41) [Totoro]Piexplode: it's not very bulky
(00:41) [Totoro]Piexplode: and 4x weak to rock as well as
(00:41) [Totoro]Piexplode: weak to ice and electric
(00:41) [Totoro]Piexplode: tauros outspeeds and has blizzard
(00:41) [Totoro]Piexplode: it sets up possibly on lax I guess?
(00:41) Marcoasd: yeah but once the bug kicks in, it's invincible
(00:42) [Totoro]Piexplode: so it has to get para'd by either a stray twave or by a body slam
(00:42) [Totoro]Piexplode: and then has to come in at the right time unless it was a lax body slam
(00:42) [Totoro]Piexplode: and lax probably KOs with bslam+hbeam or at worst selfdestruct anyway
(00:42) [Totoro]Piexplode: I don't see
(00:42) [Totoro]Piexplode: how you set it up?
(00:43) Marcoasd: i need the vid
(00:46) Marcoasd: can't find that anymore
(00:47) [Totoro]Piexplode: ok still
(00:47) [Totoro]Piexplode: idk how
(00:47) [Totoro]Piexplode: you could
(00:47) [Totoro]Piexplode: sweep me with charizard
(00:47) [Totoro]Piexplode: without me deserving to be swept anyway
(00:47) Marcoasd: chansey stalls zard
(00:47) Marcoasd: it uses dig
(00:47) Marcoasd: lol
(00:47) [Totoro]Piexplode: why would chansey stall zard
(00:47) [Totoro]Piexplode: when it can
(00:47) [Totoro]Piexplode: hit it?
(00:47) Marcoasd: -.-
(00:47) Marcoasd: it's not a ohko
(00:47) [Totoro]Piexplode: isn't chansey like the #1 thing u wouldn't want zard to be into anyway
(00:47) Marcoasd: you use twave
(00:48) Marcoasd: and that's why it wins
(00:48) [Totoro]Piexplode: you don't lead with twave
(00:48) [Totoro]Piexplode: cos that means it wins then
(00:48) [Totoro]Piexplode: instead you
(00:48) [Totoro]Piexplode: ice beam or tbolt it
(00:48) [Totoro]Piexplode: let something die if you have to
(00:48) Marcoasd: you can lose that MU
(00:48) Marcoasd: ch rate etc
(00:48) [Totoro]Piexplode: and KO it with a faster tauros etc.
(00:48) Marcoasd: fps...
(00:48) [Totoro]Piexplode: does zard OHKO after an SD?
(00:48) Marcoasd: it doesn't even need to
(00:49) Marcoasd: still, once it can't be hit, it can setup to +6
(00:49) [Totoro]Piexplode: yeah obviously
(00:49) [Totoro]Piexplode: once it's invincible I accept it's basically won unless something is
(00:49) Marcoasd: obviously, it's about getting that fp
(00:49) [Totoro]Piexplode: immune to all its attacks
(00:49) [Totoro]Piexplode: btw what's its full moveset?
(00:49) Marcoasd: dig SD body slam
(00:49) Marcoasd: and maybe rest
(00:50) Marcoasd: or reflect idk
(00:50) [Totoro]Piexplode: well
(00:50) [Totoro]Piexplode: gengar walls that?
(00:50) Marcoasd: dig!
(00:50) [Totoro]Piexplode: yeah but then ur not invincible and I can set in something to beat you
(00:50) [Totoro]Piexplode: and if I run sub just to beat this set due to its popularity it becoming a viable move option
(00:50) [Totoro]Piexplode:
(00:50) [Totoro]Piexplode: lol
(00:50) [Totoro]Piexplode: okay but even without sub
(00:50) [Totoro]Piexplode: you're only getting
(00:50) [Totoro]Piexplode: 1 KO with zard
(00:51) [Totoro]Piexplode: if I have gengar
(00:51) [Totoro]Piexplode: which isn't a straightforward mon to
(00:51) [Totoro]Piexplode: bait out and kill
(00:51) Marcoasd: facepalm
(00:51) [Totoro]Piexplode: it's one that if you manage that you've done a good job and deserve to win anyway
(00:51) [Totoro]Piexplode: xP
(00:52) [Totoro]Piexplode: show me zard calcs with chansey then
(00:52) [Totoro]Piexplode:
(00:52) Marcoasd: you can't think the whole game has to play around this bug
(00:52) [Totoro]Piexplode: I'm no
(00:52) Marcoasd: it screws up standard things
(00:52) [Totoro]Piexplode: *not
(00:52) [Totoro]Piexplode: I'm thinking about how
(00:52) [Totoro]Piexplode: you can use
(00:52) [Totoro]Piexplode: standard stuff
(00:52) [Totoro]Piexplode: to consistently beat it
(00:53) [Totoro]Piexplode: if you can justify with calculations and sensiblerealistic situations
(00:53) [Totoro]Piexplode: why that's not the case
(00:53) [Totoro]Piexplode: then I accept your point of view
(00:53) [Totoro]Piexplode: but as it stands I feel you've not presented full enough evidence
(00:53) [Totoro]Piexplode: for me to feel otherwise?
(00:53) Marcoasd: didn't try hard enough
(00:54) Marcoasd: it's something you really hate when it happens
(00:54) Marcoasd: having a pokemon you can't hit
(00:54) Marcoasd: lol that's stupid
(00:55) [Totoro]Piexplode: getting a pokemon that can't hit?
(00:55) [Totoro]Piexplode: sounds difficult to me
(00:56) [Totoro]Piexplode: I don't think in a standard scenario you could get a pokemon that carries dig/fly and be able to even once get it paralysed and set up as invincible with a pokemon which can't be handled in that scenario without that pokemon being one you couldn't handle in that scenario without the dig/fly invincibility
(00:57) Marcoasd: it's not that difficult
(00:57) Marcoasd: it won't fp at the right time maybe
(00:57) Marcoasd: but the chance is there
(00:58) [Totoro]Piexplode: I disagree because I feel you've not produced a scenario where a pokemon can successfully use dig/fly (outside of slowbro, and maybe zapdos)
(00:58) [Totoro]Piexplode: and with zapdos you have to just not paralyse it unless you have goldon
(00:59) [Totoro]Piexplode: oh, can successfully use dig/fly whilst paralysed
(00:59) Marcoasd: goldon without rest will eventually die to zapdos
(00:59) [Totoro]Piexplode: and get successfully paralysed when the opponent expects your strategy
(00:59) [Totoro]Piexplode: indeed, so goldon should now carry rest
(00:59) [Totoro]Piexplode: or otherwise play to not have zapdos paralysed
(00:59) Marcoasd: due to this thing
(00:59) Marcoasd: wow
(00:59) [Totoro]Piexplode: differentiate either your set or your play
(00:59) Marcoasd: that's how to ruin a game
(00:59) [Totoro]Piexplode: both are options
ay a game
(01:00) Marcoasd: a marvelous way to throw away a game
(01:01) Marcoasd: you allow people to try to get invulnerable instead of battling
(01:01) Marcoasd: wow!
(01:01) [Totoro]Piexplode: no
(01:01) [Totoro]Piexplode: I'm allowing the game to have
(01:02) [Totoro]Piexplode: the minimum of nessecary clauses in my eyes
(01:02) [Totoro]Piexplode:
(01:02) Marcoasd: and this one of the very few we have
(01:02) Marcoasd: sleep clause, ohko clause and this one
(01:02) [Totoro]Piexplode: I disagree that it's nessecary
(01:02) Marcoasd: are the first 3 clauses
(01:02) [Totoro]Piexplode: because I think it can be played around sensibly
(01:02) Marcoasd: than you have FC as the 4th
01:02) [Totoro]Piexplode: well I'm not sold on 3 or 4 xP
(01:03) Marcoasd: i forgot evasion moves
(01:03) Marcoasd: 4-5
(01:03) Marcoasd: lol
(01:03) [Totoro]Piexplode: 4th and 5th then
(01:03) [Totoro]Piexplode: ye
(01:03) Marcoasd: it's the very least you need to have an healthy game
(01:03) [Totoro]Piexplode: I'm willing to change my opinion when you provide evidence that is clear to me
(01:03) [Totoro]Piexplode: that this would make the game unfair
(01:04) Marcoasd: have you ever played a game against it?
(01:04) [Totoro]Piexplode: nope
(01:04) Marcoasd: lol?
(01:04) [Totoro]Piexplode: only play I did involving it was
(01:04) [Totoro]Piexplode: some testing with Lutra
(01:04) [Totoro]Piexplode: which discovered bugs
(01:04) [Totoro]Piexplode: on PS
(01:04) [Totoro]Piexplode: lol
(01:04) [Totoro]Piexplode: which are now fixed
(01:04) [Totoro]Piexplode:
(01:05) Marcoasd: you should at least try that
(01:05) Marcoasd: playing link battles 10 years ago, we found it stupid
(01:05) [Totoro]Piexplode: agreed lol
(01:05) Marcoasd: and game used to freeze
(01:06) [Totoro]Piexplode: yes but 10 years ago you weren't the player you used to be
(01:06) [Totoro]Piexplode: and who knows if your counterplay was anywhere near appropriate
(01:06) Marcoasd: we were allowing ohko moves
(01:06) [Totoro]Piexplode: also if you could explain what cuases the freeze or get
(01:06) [Totoro]Piexplode: crystal_ to
(01:06) [Totoro]Piexplode: would be helpful
(01:06) Marcoasd: and actually they make ubers a little bit healthier i think
(01:07) Marcoasd: we didn't know a fuck, but it was a pain
(01:07) Marcoasd: and again, the game used to freeze
(01:07) [Totoro]Piexplode: okay
(01:07) [Totoro]Piexplode: well if Crystal_ can find and remove
(01:07) [Totoro]Piexplode: the cause of the game freezing
(01:08) [Totoro]Piexplode: I'd be happy to allow dig/fly as it currently stands
(01:08) Marcoasd: i think you are the only guy on the planed who does
(01:08) [Totoro]Piexplode: there's not many RBYers on the planet
(01:09) Marcoasd: lol

[jorgen]

Oh yeah, Joim's been working real hard and I can certainly appreciate it. However, in spite of his efforts, playing on PS! is not advisable for any big old-gen tournament matches that might be played starting as early as tomorrow.

Also yeah if this glitch is implemented the moves Dig and Fly should be banned 100%. Is that really a discussion to be had? Who am I kidding, it probably is...

[piexplode]

Opinions:
Marco - ban
Piex - no ban (currently)
Lutra - suspect test

hell yeah there's discussion to be had :]

if we could find out why it sometimes breaks the game would be great though