I'm back with another team

[Crystal_]

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Double-Edge / Body Slam
- Lovely Kiss / Sleep Talk
- Rest

Zapdos @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunder

Steelix (M) @ Leftovers
- Body Slam / Curse
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Roar

Exeggutor (M) @ Leftovers
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psychic
- Stun Spore / Sleep Powder[/b]

Heracross (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Megahorn

Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
- Acid Armor
- Growth
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam


****************************************************************************************

Against stall teams:

Vaporeon becomes main offense, capable of taking out the entire team. +1 Hydro Pump 2HKOes Raikou assuming it doesn't miss.

Zapdos paralyzes Raikous and damages Snorlaxes if possible.

Egg has nearly the same job as well. Statusing Starmies also helps. Exploding into Suicune might allow Curselix to take out Skarm with a +2-3 Explosion.

Body Slam in Steelix helps paralyzing Cunes and Skarms, which eases Egg job. Exploding with Steelix into Suicune means that can Egg can either HP Skarms which gives Hera/Lax a chance to do something or Psychic/Explosion Raikou and Snorlax. RoarCune needs to be exploded on, but STCune gives me Vap switching opportunities.

Heracross provides free switch-in opportunities for Vaporeon/Zapdos into Skarmory.


****************************************************************************************

Against offensive teams:

Both Vap and Hera are the sweepers, and general strategy is to beat Zapdos as soon as possible, or at least to paralyze it.

This Vaporeon has great offensive capabilities; Hydro Pump KOes Ground-types more often than not (Steelix is KOed, Wak and Donphan are both 99% - 100+%, Nidoking takes 335 - 393 damage) and damages Snorlax decently hard, +1 HP 3HKOing unless any move misses (51'2%). +1 HP 2HKOes Cloyster, Machamp and Heracross as well. Ice Beam is really good. Does around 45% to Zapdos and 2HKOes Egg 50% of the times. Random freeze is also welcome. AA has given me decent success, weakening explosions and physical attackers, Curselax highlighting, and is very useful when I'm planning a finish sweep.

Heracross is second part. Beats 1on1 non-DP paralyzed Zapdos, most common switching. After that, is has a chance to damage everything else, either by Curse set upping or by fleeting random switches. EQ is for Gengar, Steelix, Nidoking, etc, and in the worst point, trading Heracross with Steelix (explosion) helps Snorlax Zapdos. Although Machamp has a much more easy sweep against stall teams, I consider Heracross somewhat more useful against offense, especially when Zap is out or para and in 2HKO range.

Body Slamming Steelix provides paras against Starmies, Cloysters and Zapdos. Egg also statuses. Exploding on Zapdos speeds up stuff. Trading Eggs can eliminate an annoying issue for Vap.

[borat]

First four are the same, so I won't bother there.

Heracross has a inferior Machamp set, and it does really work (just not as well). Heracross's advantage over Machamp is typing and longevity, neither of which are capitalized on with this set. Heracross kills Zapdos with that set... okay. So does Machamp? Machamp is no worse against offensive teams than stall teams, if anything, it's the opposite. Machamp does more damage readily, Heracross is quicker though.

Your Zapdos should rarely be paralyzed if you play your cards right. And if it does happen, it should only be for brief moments before you put it into a rest loop.

Vaporeon's interesting though. Without Rest/ST, it seems like it's losing all potential in matchups where it can't really do anything. I believed I mentioned the team's ability to "dumb things down" when it needs be, and Vaporeon, with its massive HP/Rest/ST/no physical weaknesses/insane spc def, along with Snorlax, Zapdos, and Steelix can do. And don't forget Egg's typing as well. Losing the Rest/ST loses that advantage.

Hitting grounds harder, for all intents and purposes, is immaterial. You're probably influenced by that last game where you misplayed Vaporeon against Marowak, but that shouldn't be a deciding factor to use HP.

Also, you can no longer set up against Starmie/Chanseys. IB is nice, but it only really hits Egg. HP does more damage and 2 shots Raikou, but in the process of paralyzing raikou (let's face it, you wouldn't stand a chance against a non-paralyzed one), you should've put it into Surf's 2HKO range anyway. Either way, you have a 100% shot to ko from under 82% or so, vs a 64% chance to ko from 100%. I like the odds of the former imo. And you still can't do too much against Roar Cunes, and without Rest/ST, you might actually lose the matchup against other growth Vaps, even though HP is suppose to tilt things in your favor. You definitely gain the upper hand against Cloysters with AA, but they're still quicker and still gets the explode off before you can set up on them.

In summary, you gain a much needed advantage over Exeggutor, a minor one over the likes of Cloyster and DE Curselax (assuming it's switching into you, you have no business doing it the other way around). This is at the cost of setting up against Starmie and Blissey (sometimes), and of course, the sheer walling potential of Vaporeon (which is pretty damn good), and of course, the fallback Rest/ST is just great stuff if you're in a jimmy.

Offensive doesn't mean reckless. You can't afford to play Vaporeon like you would Charizard, she's not a 1 turn setup, she's not fast, and she definitely can't OHKO everything. Plus, you're wasting 463 HP and 288 spc def.

=\ Anyway, I really recommend at least a different concept to work with. The last three teams you've posted have been tit for tat similar, and you're only really changing the sweepers. You're trying to come up with better alternatives to the team I posted, which quite frankly, has stumped me for years. Machamp is the best go-to attacker in years, neither Marowak or Heracross are better [in the long run], but are definitely possible for some matchups. Vaporeon is the most natural fit in the last slot, not only for her offensive potential to end games then and there, but also her defensive capabilities to slow the game down. Everyone on the team, apart from Machamp, can play in a stall environment if need be, and can stall out a good majority of teams (explosion aside).

Ramboing set with Vaporeon doens't work for that reason. In some cases, the more powerful attacks can pay off, but in instances where you have to play a slower, methodical offense, it'll just suck and die. Marowak hits slightly harder than Machamp, at the cost of a ton of longevity. Heracross has better longevity than Machamp, but loses out in several marquee matchups (it doesn't exactly scare a curselax, does it?).

However, I will submit there are instances where Heracross is more viable than Machamp, which is why it was considered as an alternative in the original post. As for vaporeon though, that set is by far the most successful set and will be the most consistent performer, allowing her to play a role in games where she's completely shut down, be it walling shit and taking hits, or taking the early sleep, or just PP stalling. That's what's cool about all of these Pokemon. Snorlax can take a backseat in games that are hopeless for him. So can zapdos, exeggutor, and steelix, who can all provide support as well as dishing out the pain depending on the scenario.

So yeah, I'm interested more in what YOU can come up with, instead of trying to improve/find alternatives to the team I posted, the latter of which I've already listed anyway . The last change I made was Machamp early this year, and that's what made it feel complete, so you can see why I'm a bit partial to Machamp. And I've always found Espeon to be the most effective "alt", since it almost completely changed the way the team played, and it eats stalls alive. Roar ttar was the lone hard counter to it. Changing Machamp to Heracross/Marowak/Porygon2/Dragonite/Nidoking/Tyranitar was a situational change (and ultimately, an inferior one), since it hardly affected the flow and chemistry with the team. It was a brainless change that relied specifically on matchups. Changing Zapdos to Raikoou is along similar lines. There's no reason to change the team just to be different and feel like you're using your own creation, it's not fooling anything whose team you're using. If you want to feel like you're making your own creation, then... do it. Start from scratch. Start with a new concept. But keep in mind, it's much harder than it looks, and I bet you'll come up with something similar I've posted a good majority of the time, with the rest being ineffective.

Some good starting points:

Pgon2
Gengar
Clefable
Tentacruel
Jynx
Misdreavus

(obviously not a team of 6, but pokemon to consider). I haven't fully looked into those, and can't be bothered to now. Pgon2 seemed pretty cool with twave + curse + de + recover. Tenta really only has one set, but I haven't found a team that could legitimately use tentacruel in it, and not have vap/starmie/suicune be the better alternative. Clefable is a long lost love.

Here's an interesting PM:

Fuck, stop posting teams Borat :/
i just started playing again and saw ur team with a guy (Crystal_GSC). I lost twice. btw the team is awesome and from the middle to the end of the game its just drives u crazy, beat Curselax, Machamp, Vaporeon after Steelix and Exeggy explodes is almost impossible :/

[Crystal_]

What I have learned about me in my few GSC months, is that, because of being too careful I suppose, I don't really do much with the main sweeper, or at least avoid taking damage when they don't have a clear chance of winning the match. Yes, too much I said. Vap walling capabilities are ones that I haven't been capable of exploiting so far.
HP was mainly for Raikou/Laxes actually, as well as the full-health Steelix matchup.
With Hera I was thinking about Egg and Starmie mainly. Plus Nidoking/Tenta/Muk with EQ at the same time as Exeggutor (Champ: Hidden Power) or Zapdos (Champ: RS), but idk.

I have also made some different teams few weeks, I had one with FB Drumfable, with roar-pursuit-crunch-rs/dp tar and standard stuff (same Zap, Egg(stun), Lax (LKCurse) and I think Wak), but was either Clefable doing anything or cleaning a team that was already beaten anyway. I deleted.

Some others.

Cloyster (M) @ Leftovers
- Explosion
- Ice Beam
- Spikes
- Surf

Zapdos @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunder

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Double-Edge
- Fire Blast
- Lovely Kiss
- Selfdestruct

Steelix (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Roar

Exeggutor (M) @ Leftovers
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Leech Seed
- Substitute

Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt

Entertaining but with few random predictions deciding the outcome obv. Works still fine though.


Jolteon (M) @ Leftovers
- Agility
- Baton Pass
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Thunder

Donphan (M) @ Leftovers
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Rest
- Roar

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Earthquake
- Lovely Kiss
- Return

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Whirlwind

Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
- Body Slam
- Growl
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink

Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
- Growth
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

First was less support-based. None work. Planning to have both a physical and special route. Donphan is only thing that covered Missy and Spikes. Feel free to criticise it.


I have some more from early-2010 when GSC was just play-for-fun. Team sucked actually. You will laugh at them. An example:

Steelix (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Iron Tail
- Roar

Jumpluff (M) @ Leftovers
- Encore
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Toxic

Starmie @ Leftovers
- Recover
- Reflect
- Surf
- Thunderbolt

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Counter
- Double-Edge
- Fire Blast
- Selfdestruct

Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Alakazam (M) @ Miracle Berry
- Dynamicpunch
- Fire Punch
- Psychic
- Recover


This one also:

Electabuzz (M) @ Leftovers
- Cross Chop
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt

Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
- Cross Chop
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
- Pursuit
- Roar
- Rock Slide
- Surf

Zapdos @ Leftovers
- Drill Peck
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Counter
- Double-Edge
- Fire Blast
- Selfdestruct

Exeggutor (M) @ (No Item)
- Explosion
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Sleep Powder


Entei, Qwilfish?. Better stop here.

[borat]

First one is a run of the mill Explosion team.

Second one is actually pretty interesting.

Third's bad.

Fourth's pretty cool.

See if you can update those two.

[Crystal_]

Pretty cool? Update the last two? Haha.

[borat]

No, #2 and 4.

[Crystal_]

Last two are in the bin, literally.
The problem with the BP team is that there is not only beat the phazer and GG pretty much as I hoped. Eggg sleeps, stuns or explode; Lax sleeps or explodes (or can even curse up), Gengar sleeps, explodes, DBs and outspeeds and so on.

Btw, have you redone the Smogon Forre analysis? Are you planning to do the same with all of them?

EDIT: Do you like this Clefable?
Double-Edge
Fire Blast
Moonlight
Thunder/Curse

[borat]

For team 2, take out jolteon. That gives you more flexibility to work with. And along the same lines, change lax set. And as for keeping donphan IN the team, you have to work off its advantages.

For the last team, buzz looks a bit off.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the explodes.

@clefable: Do I like a weaker snorlax? Not really.

[Crystal_]

Taking out Jolteon and changing Lax set leaves my with a stall team, and I already have one with Raikou, Suicune, Snorlax, Skarm, Miltank, Starmie/Cloyster, and I already have that.

Jolteon uses BP to Lax, Exeggutor uses Explosion.

Forget about the last team pls, haha =P

[borat]

There is no exeggutor?

[Crystal_]

Moar, moar, moar

First of all, thanks you Borat, you are helping me a lot =)

Cloyster (M) @ Leftovers
- Ice Beam / Surf
- Rapid Spin
- Rest
- Spikes

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Roar
- Thunderbolt

Skarmory (M) @ (No Item) / Leftovers
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Thief / Curse
- Whirlwind

Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
- Body Slam
- Growl
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Suicune / Exeggutor @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Roar / Ice Beam / Psychic
- Sleep Talk / Ice Beam / Reflect
- Surf / Leech Seed[/color]

Spikes Stall team. Not sure about Cune/Egg. Currently have Cune.


Jolteon (M) @ Leftovers
- Agility
- Baton Pass
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Thunder

Misdreavus (M) @ Leftovers
- Hypnosis

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Earthquake
- Lovely Kiss
- Return

Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance

This is an idea I had for the BP team. Missy usually sees the phazer the first time, which I can try to put to sleep (Raikou/Steelix/Ttar/Rhydon...). The problem is that if I miss the Hypnosis I'm saying "I don't have ML, switch whatever you want, aka STer". Then, I can try to para Raikou with Thunder (to get 25% chances to BP) while Steelix sees predicted BPs from Jolti to Wak. And should Steelix explode, well, the phazer problem somewhat of finishes.

Anyway, I need to finish it, I haven't think much of it. Any comment/idea is welcome.


A different stall team I made. Untested.

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
- Roar
- Rock Slide
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This thing is supposed to wall most Snorlax and Eggs, given the disappearance of EQ and GD respectively (at least in NB, about 75-80% Laxes and Eggs lack them; Drumlax is pretty nonexistent as well). Sleep Talk prevents status and Roar stops Curselax. Even though lacking Crunch, it also makes a good answer to ghosts, but the rare DPGar. Stops FB Drumfable as well. Drumlax, though incredibly rare nowadays is a very big problem for the team.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
- Thunder
- Reflect
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Makes a great answer to Machamp and Heracross, and provides in general good consistency.

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake / Curse

Main role is to wall electrics, and also stops most mixsweepers and special sweepers in general. I actually prefer EQ, so that ghosts doesn't enter like np.

Suicune @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar / Ice Beam
- Surf

Roar vs Ice Beam was a big problem, finally decided Roar. Ice Beam was mainly for Dnite, but also makes Zapdos switch-ins more difficult and hits Eggs. Roar stops Vap and helps Ttar in the phaze job against stuff like Cursegon / CurseEQLax and spreads Spikes damage.

Exeggutor (M) @ Leftovers
- Psychic
- Moonlight
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder / Explosion / Hidden Power [Fire]

I had HP at first, but I didn't like the idea of losing that amount of HP. Explosion might give me a chance to open a small hole in opposing stall team's defense, but finally decided SP, to disable whatever I find more threatening.

Cloyster (M) @ Leftovers
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
- Surf / Toxic / SelfDestruct

This was a really difficult decision. Cloyster offers RS and Spikes, which is nice to put pressure into sweepers. The problem, though, was that Cloyster is not capable of wake up after Rest, and RS and Explosion are incompatible. Cloyster also gives help against grounds like Marowak and Steelix and IB KOes Dragonite.
Other option I considered was Raikou (extra phazer + electric defense). Starmie also. Surf, Psychic, RS, Recover, but makes me vulnerable to Snorlax and Electric switch-ins

[borat]

Hope you took a look at my post. I'll get back to this later next week. Post any updates you've had since then in a new post.

[Crystal_]

I've tried a lot of different stall teams lately, but the problem I find is that I'm eventually forced to utilize a Rest that I'm not able to wake up at time, and I end up losing for that reason. Especially with spikes; RS Cloyster is not guaranteed at all to get rid of them; I wanted to add a beller, and a more "reliable" RS-er (Psychic Star). It's really easy to find a route to go for the spikes-offensive team. They have a lot, and they just have to overcame one; you have to win at all of them. I'd change Gengar to something better in your example (or at least a better gar). Why not Champ? The example you posted is really an ideal matchup that occurs 5% of the times imo.

Going to explosion, I consider they are creating a new metagame with 20% of the skill / variety of skill. Vs a explosion team it's 50/50. Few rock-paper-scissor guesses, just that. Anyway, I replyed G80 with blah, blah, blah, and finally, after few reply exchanges, with "it doesn't matter because it's impossible for Smogon to control the rules in NB"; I don't even know what are the current rules in Smogon itself.

Like g80 mentioned, it's absurd to ban something like Snorlax, banning explosion would just be idiotic. Might as well ban spikes. Might as well ban zapdos/raikou, exeggutor, suicune, miltank. Might as well just play UU then.

Everything is relative. I consider Snorlax, spikes (maybe idk though), electrics, egg, cune, miltank good for the meta; but explosion doesn't deserve the same claim from my part.

banning explosion would just be idiotic

. This is EXACTLY the same thing people make if they want Celebi in OU. Banning something that has been present for a long time in the meta is much more likely to be idiotic than something that hasn't. Celebi has already been in the meta, and is allowed in rs/dp as well, so it's less idiotic. Explosion / Snorlax / Dragonite / Pikachu / Magicarp is the opposite, and no matter the arguments that could be made, the disscusion starts in a point in which is idiotic to do it.

I know I can't go anywhere with banning explosion, in fact I don't know if I want to go somewhere, so it's dumb to continue this. Thanks for developing the GSC meta Borat, and if you ever want a "LKLax is broken" supporter that won't convince the masses because he is a nobody, I will be there.


EDIT: oh, teams, i forget.

Starmie @ Leftovers
- Psychic
- Surf
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Roar

Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Whirlwind

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
- Body Slam
- Growl
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink

Umbreon (M) @ Leftovers
- Charm
- Pursuit
- Rest
- Toxic




for the BP i copy-pasted your team on part 4

EDIT2: having better results with stalls lately

Cloyster (M) @ Leftovers- Rapid Spin
- Rest
- Spikes
- Surf

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Roar
- Thunderbolt

Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Whirlwind

Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Rest

Suicune @ Leftovers
- Ice Beam / Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf



I'd also want to ask you about ML+CR Umbreon, not in any concret team, in general.

[Crystal_]

Previous post too... maybe

*ML+CR+BP


Cloyster (F) @ Leftovers
- Rapid Spin
- Rest
- Spikes
- Surf

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Roar
- Thunderbolt

Starmie @ Leftovers
- Psychic
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Surf

Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Whirlwind

Suicune @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Roar
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Rest
- Sleep Talk



Cloyster (F) @ Leftovers
-Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Rest
-Surf

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Rest
- Roar
- Thunderbolt

Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance

Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Whirlwind

Suicune @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Ice Beam
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam
- Curse
- Rest

btw, does the way pokemons are arranged relevant because of Roar/WW or anything?