Old Discussion Thread

[t3h Icy]

EDIT:

Since I'm merging everything together, I ran out of space to fit everything into 1 post. I'm closing this thread, and I'd like to direct any discussion to the new topic now. I created a couple dummy posts so I won't have to do this again.

Hopefully this isn't annoying.

[WaterWizard]

Nice compilation. Good team effort! I hope you all like these pokemon and that the ideas jive with you all as well as they did with us! I think a lot of it is totally natural editing. Eric did all the typing, an arduous task for sure! I encouraged and entertained.

Notes:
~ A lot of these moves are now exclusive to certain pokes (Dig to Dutrio, etc). We'll notate any exclusive moves sometime tomorrow.
~ Quick Attack is an Eon exclusive move.
~ We'll be fixing Ghost's interaction with Psychic (Super Effective instead of No Effect).
~ PP and Stats are of course subject to experimentation. Some of the stallers may be severely hurt by the newly lowered PP levels.

Lots of testing is ahead!

We're hoping this makes everyone usable. It was of course harder with certain pokes, but we got creative (but not wild) in those instances. Some formerly poor pokemon get major boosts, while some just got more utility usage (Golbat has parafusion-flinching, etc).

I'm very happy with the typing Icy and I came up with! Props go to Icy for Kingler's Water/Bug typing. I am particularly proud of my ideas for Seadra (Water/Fire) and Tangela (Grass/Water). Many of the other typings were quite obvious and much anticipated (Charizard, Gyarados, etc). We think the Eons will love their Normal typing (Flareon especially with that nice attack). Made the Tranny trio more harmonious by making Magmar and Electabuzz Psychic. Blastoise now has a Quagsire-esque duel typing to match his peers.

We've put a LOT of power into some of these pokemon, but we've also placed some pretty epic walls into the game (Chansey gets a Defense boost, Onix gets a major special boost, etc). Checks & Balances will be present.

Can't wait to see how this all turns out!!!

WW

[t3h Icy]

I also want to point out that this is far from done and I'd really like to have this as a community project, so if you guys have your own ideas of Pokemon, please, feel absolutely free to suggest them to us, and we'll scrap some of our own.

Also there's a lot of mistakes and stuff in there currently, but I'll edit it all tomorrow.

[posthuman]

Wow. A lot of changes.

I'm not sure all of these should be done at once...you can't fully predict how the metagame will change. I think the changes should be slower and more careful. This way, the game will evolve nicely into a new experience. I've been through balance changes of a couple RTS/RPG games and I know that trying to change/fix too many things at once will almost certainly break a bunch of other things.

Of course, we may not have the time for a slow evolution.

[t3h Icy]

I think it'd be funner to have a disaster of crap all at once and then we'll somehow fix them all at once.

[posthuman]

Yeah but we won't. It'll be more fun in the beginning but it won't actually work well.

[Zilch]

100% accuracy Disable? Nice.

Eagerly anticipating the release!

[t3h Icy]

Aug 31, 2010 12:14:10 GMT -8 posthuman said:

Yeah but we won't. It'll be more fun in the beginning but it won't actually work well.

So then we'll fix it. =P

Anyway, thanks for the support, but we still have a lot of leftover moves and we're skeptical about some of the Pokemon/moves, so we'd like your input too. ^_^

I also did some basic formatting for now so that there's spaces between each Pokemon and move; easier to read.

[posthuman]

yeah yeah i'll help

[WaterWizard]

I definitely think it should all be made at once and then slowly sculpted into balance. Of course a few Pokes will definitely need to be nerfed as unforeseen strategies arise. Remember, this will be unique to all other gens in that every fully evolved poke will be viable.

[t3h Icy]

I suppose since it is Posthuman's birthday (=P), I gave you guys powers so you can edit stuff, just don't make a mess of the original post. >:3

[WaterWizard]

We absolutely need to change Vileplume's special to 338 @ resisted by TONS (x2 and x4) and locked into Petal Dance. We designed her to be the Special Sweeper Mono-Grass type, but since she fell early in the pokedex we didn't boost her as much. She is in desperate need of some more power, and 338 is not much to ask for. She may even need a boost to Petal Dance. All she can do is use grass attacks...

[t3h Icy]

Changed:

Petal Dance from 120 to 150 Base Power.
Vileplume's Special from 318 to 338.

[WaterWizard]

Some more things I have considered:

Perhaps add a blurb about the new Ghost interaction to the top of the thread.

~

Leech Seed to 100% Accuracy (grasses still immune)

Super Fang to 5 pp (Raticate looks pretty uber so an attack stat decrease may be in order later)

Magmar loses Smokescreen (he has Fire Punch)

Karate Chop to Poliwrath (Submission alternative)

Rapidash needs Horn Attack (alternative to Stomp)

Stun Spore to 95% Accuracy (still some risk and contrasts Glare, etc)

Nidoqueen to 423 HP (to emphasize bulky alternative to Nidoking)

Supersonic is exclusive to Golbat. Also, let him share Glare with Arbok to accentuate his Paraflinchfusion.

~

Either Submission was accidentally left of Pinsir (he already learned it) or we thought it might be too strong. Regardless, he is left without a STAB fighting move now. Give him Submission or Fury Swipes.

~

Maybe make Hyper Fang Ghost type instead of Normal, and let Arbok learn it instead of Lick. This helps accentuate Glare via Flinch, and also makes Raticate more interesting.

~

Fearow, Pidgeot, and Dodrio can be contrasted a bit more via this suggestion. Remove Normal typing from Pidgeot. This allows her to resist Fighting, while removing her immunity to Ghosts. She is the right choice for this since she has the two new unique Flying moves. Fearow needs an HP boost to 373 to maintain his status as Bulky Bird. Also, give Fearow Reflect like all the others to further augment his purpose. This should help accentuate each bird's playstyle.

~

Butterfree is the Bug/Psychic pokemon whose sole purpose/use is special sweeping. She currently only has Psychic to utilize her STAB, so I suggest making Confusion (yet to be edited) her unique move. We were all so excited when Metapod evolved and gained this move.

Confusion
Type: Psychic
Power: 150
Accuracy: 70%
Effect: 10% Confusion
Notes: same as Pidgeot's unique Whirlwind

[t3h Icy]

I did some of WaterWizard's changes, but I have to do other stuff at the moment. I'll finish it later.

I'll also merge everything together and make the layout better, all once I have time.

Edit: Okay, added all those, but I gave Butterfree Kinesis instead of Confusion since both are pretty similar, so then we have an extra move to play with.

[t3h Icy]

We still have a lot of unchanged moves as follows:

Bide
Body Slam
Bubble
Bubblebeam
Confuse Ray
Confusion
Conversion
Counter
Double Team
Earthquake
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Flash
Growl
Growth
Harden
Haze
Hyper Beam
Ice Beam
Leer
Lovely Kiss
Metronome
Mimic
Minimize
Mirror Move
Poison Gas
Psybeam
Psychic
Rest
Sand-Attack
Scratch
Seismic Toss
Slam
Slash
Sleep Powder
Softboiled
Spore
Strength
Surf
Swift
Swords Dance
Tackle
Take Down
Thunderbolt

And here's my thoughts on each:

Bide - Good, PP nerf
Body Slam - Good, 10PP?
Confuse Ray - Good
Conversion - Good, PP nerf
Counter - Good, PP nerf
Double Team - Perhaps accuracy lowering?
Earthquake - Good
Fire Blast - Good
Flamethrower - Good
Flash - Perhaps 85% accurate, PP nerf
Growl - More widely available, PP nerf
Growth - Good, PP nerf
Haze - Good, PP nerf
Hyper Beam - Good
Ice Beam - Good
Lovely Kiss - Good, PP nerf
Metronome - Good, PP boost
Mimic - Good, PP nerf
Mirror Move - Good, PP nerf
Psychic - Good
Rest - Good, PP nerf to 5?
Sand-Attack - Good
Seismic Toss - Good (since Night Shade was changed)
Slash - Good, PP nerf to 10?
Sleep Powder - Good
Softboiled - Good
Spore - Good, PP nerf to 10?
Strength - Rock attack possibility? We don't have many.
Surf - Good
Swift - Good, PP nerf to 10 and maybe base boost to 75?
Swords Dance - Good, PP nerf
Thunderbolt - Good

Other thoughts: Maybe make Egg Bomb 90% accurate? Make the three elemental punches 100/95% (as opposed to 95/100% with Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam)?

Edit: Maybe give Tangela Leech Life so she has all 3 absorb moves? Her Attack sucks and if you manage Swords Dance first, then you probably deserve it.

[Zilch]

I've been wondering about how to make Bide not suck. Would there be any way to tweak the move into recovering the HP lost when you unleash the energy?

For example, let's say I use Bide, you use Seismic Toss on me twice, and I don't faint. When I unleash my energy, I heal 200 HP and you're dealt 400 damage. Of course simply hitting me without the ability to kill is dumb, and you may as well just switch to something that can kill me or something that can recover, but it might become situationally useful, such as inflicting surprise damage with a staller who can easily get back into the game with the HP recovered, or for sapping the opponent's PP, especially if the charge time is fixed to 2 turns and not randomly 2 or 3.

Would damage from poison, burns, and Leech Seed stay off, though? I'm not quite sure. Also, if Bide is Counterable, it should be changed to a non-Normal, non-Fighting physical type.

[t3h Icy]

So far, we've only made changes to moves that can exist in a ROM (without extensive hacking) under the assumption that it would be difficult programming in new effects (depends on what the coding looks like).

However, I do like the idea of a type change for Bide. Perhaps Dragon or Psychic so that nothing is immune and the type seems fitting.

[Zilch]

It's pretty odd. When you think about it, Bide is basically a hybrid of Counter and Mirror Coat that lasts multiple turns, but it's that very delay that makes the move all but unusable. Perhaps you could use Bide as a stat booster, maybe one that gives +1 to Accuracy, but with a mere 5 PP to use it? I'd recommend taking it off anything with a wrapping move in that case.

[WaterWizard]

Alright, maybe we can make Confusion something else for Butterfree... I did notice the similarity with Kinesis when I suggested it, but thought the power boost would be grounds for making it.

Tangela will be very good, I promise, and leech life makes him way too much like Parasect. Tangela has epic defensive stats and gets growth + absorb/megadrain, meaning he will be VERY hard to kill. I say no on the leech life.

Also, please be careful with the PP nerfing. We've made some extremely powerful pokemon. Here's my take: we're making the metagame much more about team building. it is likely that there will be a TON of switching since we've made so many hard counters for a lot of the different types of sweepers. Pokemon that set up are going to have to switch out if the enemy has their bane, and it's lame if they can't try again later. Also, the stallers absolutely need PP. so moves like Recover, Rest, Softboiled, Growth, Defense Curl, Reflect etc all need to keep high PP, or this game will be completely Sweeper dominated like DPPt. Just some wisdom from someone who plays the later generations.

As for bide, I was thinking we could make it a special move for Golem or Onix or Ninetales (all Brock's pokemon)... I don't really know how we'd be able to tweak the effect to be like Zilch suggested, though I do think it's a great idea!

Remember that we have JACKED the rock moves and they are only resisted by two types. They also destroy the Fires, Flyings, Bugs, and Ices that we have just boosted. Also, notice that all the users of the rock moves already have huge attack. Think about this: we didn't make many more ground moves since EQ is already great. We only made a couple to the pokemon who shouldn't be able to EQ (Rapidash). We've made 95 and 120 rock moves, and coming from all those pokemon with uber attack it should be fine.

Strength could be a unique move for Machamp. We should save a lot of these to use later to balance things out. Double Team as another one that could be a unique move for someone (Raichu, Mime, etc), since lowering accuracy (especially with a universal TM) isn't really good for the metagame.

These are the moves that we still have to work with:

Bide
Bubble
Bubblebeam - Perhaps something for Starmie or another if Misty's pokemon
Confusion - I still think Butterfree should be the unique user of this. But idk what it should do...
Conversion - Probably should stay the same. I see it being usable now and it's unique.
Double Team - perhaps a unique move for Mime/Raichu/other later to balance
Flash - Perhaps a unique move later to help boost certain electrics if they suck
Growl - This could be changed to GSC Charm (-2 attack). Attack lowering will be more useful now.
Harden
Leer - This move is already very useful for pokemon like Tauros. I'd say it's good.
Poison Gas - perhaps a unique move for weezing that lower's the foe's attack by two (x4 weak to ground)
Psybeam
Scratch
Slam
Strength - Machamp exclusive move? later?
Swift - maybe just a power boost and/or type change.
Tackle
Take Down - I was thinking Arcanine still isn't very good... maybe some unique move for him.


We should probably wait on a lot of these moves so that others can contribute and so we have something to work with after Beta testing...

[t3h Icy]

Hmm, well we'd have to see how the stally moves fare with lower PP. I agree with Leech Life not for Tangela.

Also, I like the Poison Gas idea, but no move exists that lowers Attack by 2x currently.

[WaterWizard]

yep, hopefully that one would be easy to change (modify growl's indicator or assign the value twice or something, idk...)

yeah, with psychic and the other psychic-esque moves common, growth/withdraw users will want plenty of pp.

[t3h Icy]

The idea isn't to remove stalling, but just to shorten it. Most people hate Alakazam/Chansey stall wars that take 200 turns. PP nerfing is for making this take closer to 50 turns, but by no means getting rid of it altogether.

It would take some testing to figure out.

[WaterWizard]

Just noticed Fearow's HP hasn't been boosted to 373 yet. Let me know if you plan not to do it, so I can change my analysis on the other page. I really think he needs it.

Gosh the more I look at this the more I can't wait!


Edit: you copied Blastoise's HP down as 268 (+4) instead of 368 (+4).

[t3h Icy]

I'm thinkig of making this public so that we can get some more input and activity in general for the site.

I kind of want to do some cleaning up first (which I can't do until the weekend), but once everything is organized better, what do you think? We are getting closer to having a new simulator out for RBY, so we can implement this project in a few months if the developers are speedy.

I'd like to make some new visuals first though, again, I'll try to on the weekend.

[t3h Icy]

Can some others explain this to Crystal? -_-