Underboss
Member
Rock On Kadabra!!!
Posts: 212
|
Post by Underboss on May 17, 2010 21:37:53 GMT -8
Can't netbattle just make wrapping moves an extra option or something?
|
|
|
Post by pocket on Aug 5, 2010 16:03:44 GMT -8
This is an old topic, but I need to pipe in on this one. Years ago there was a similar discussion on smogon about banning Wrap moves after one of the admins lost to Agility Wrap Dragonite. He didn't deal with the threat properly and naturally lost. It was a pretty controversial and heated discussion at that time, but it did not result in a ban (not even Agility Wrap). I had a really lengthy post as to the tradeoffs in having such a monster in your slot, but the old threads don't exist anymore :[
It's very distinct from an OHKO move. If an OHKO move hits, your monster is dead / out of commission. If Wrap hits you, you cannot move for another 2-5 turns. Big difference. Dragonite can't kill a monster with Wrap the way Horn Drill does. It would have to finish something off with a combination of Blizzard / Hyper Beam or Blizzard / Thunderbolt, either one have respective ways of being dealt.
Blizzard / Hyper Beam - The key is to get Dragonite to Hyper Beam. Obviously you don't let the monster that just had its HP chipped off to Hyper Beam range to take the hit; you bring in something that can absorb the beam and retaliate with a lethal blow. Many things can switch into an unstabbed Hyper Beam. Articuno, Tauros, Snorlax, and Golem, for example. They all can then Blizzard / Self-Destruct / Counter / paralyze on the turn of recharge. A good monster to be the Hyper Beam bait would either be a special sponge or an Ice-resisting Water or Ice Types. Let Dragonite chip away their health to Hyper Beam KO range, and then you switch to soak up a Hyper Beam. Of course the opposing trainer may suspect that and decide to Wrap again, but then the process just repeats itself. Regardless the opponent cannot have Dragonite wrap forever, as it is unlikely that Wrap would hit 5 or 6 times consecutively (5x - 44.4%; 6x - 37.7%). So the average damage output before it misses and is vulnerable is about 210~270. So it is roughly around the ballpark of a STAB Hyper Beam / unstabbed Explosion / 2 unstabbed Hyper Beams. As you can see wrap alone cannot sweep teams. It needs considerable support - mainly paralysis (which is not that easy to spread around with a monster like Chansey around) The arguably low damage output solely by Wrap before it misses also necessitates a finishing move such as Hyper Beam / Blizzard, which provides an opening. Not to mention that the turn Dragonite Agility up is another opening, too.
The alternative Thunderbolt / Blizzard provides a recharge-free and at times more powerful means of finishing off Blizzard-resists. However it's less powerful in general, meaning that it requires more turns of Wrap and more chance of a miss. Alakazam, Chansey, and Snorlax can pretty much wait out for a miss and end Dragonite's rampage. Avoiding paralysis on one or two of these monsters, which are not weak to boltbeam, would improve the chances of taking out Dragonite.
And there's also a hard counter in Gengar. So what if Gengar cannot attack? Dragonite's sweep is ruined, forcing it to switch out. Also nothing is stopping you from withdrawing Gengar and keeping one step ahead of the opponent.
Common Wrappers, notably Victreebel, Tangela, Cloyster, and Dragonite adds another Ice / Electric weakness to your team, which is not quite beneficial (Ninetales and Moltres are an exception, but Fire Spin's 70% accuracy has low mileage). Also there are enough standard mons that outrun these supporting monsters to prevent them from being untouched. Sure Wrap adds more emphasis on avoiding paralysis, but avoiding paralysis is a good thing to begin with. You are at a severe disadvantage if half of your team is paralyzed anyways - pretty much sets up for a sweep of practically anything standard (Tauros, Sandslash, Snorlax, Slowbro, Lapras, Zapdos)
The supporting characteristic of Wrap (provides a free switch-in) would be a more Wobbuffet-profound argument if your monsters cannot switch out while being Wrapped. However, you can. Nothing is stopping you from predicting a switch and bring in a monster that puts you at an advantage. Also, it would be a more significant threat if the Wrapper can select a different move when you switch out of Wrap (ie. Victreebel Stun Spore when your Chansey switches out of Wrap), but the Wrapper is locked into that 1 move, so again it doesn't quite provide much momentum or threat if you have faster monsters to switch.
I actually think Wrap provides an additional viable strategy that diversifies the metagame. It is definitely not broken alone. Even with Agility, it needs proper Sweeper support to be anywhere effective in sweeping teams (ie removing Gengar, making sure every monster is half-dead). There is a fair trade-offs in having a Wrapper, such as poor typing that can be exploited as well as sacrificing the overall team's defense (IE replacing Exeggutor for Victreebel). Adds more flavor to the metagame flooded with bog standards. I have not seen in this thread anything substantial to validate a ban on this move, other than personal opinion that it's annoying / boring to deal with it. And there is the whole discussion about Dragonite being "untouchable" (although I have explained above that it is not the case). Yea, you have to think when you are up against one of these. Don't recklessly get monsters paralyzed. Doesn't quite require any modification of your standard team either, as most of them have a way to deal with Wrappers. Nothing broken about it. Just need to be more exposed / acquainted to this odd strategy to fully realize its limitations and ways around it.
|
|