Do you think wrapping moves be banned?

[Nerd]

Simple question. In your opinion, are wrapping moves too unfair and luck based, and is the game better without them?

[t3h Icy]

They're not too horrible, but Dragonite really is an exception. Without him, the opponent just has to spread paralysis, and that can be tricky getting around.

If both teams are using Wrappers, battling can become really bland. Gengar could help somewhat though, but that would also mean that it'd be better to use a different lead.

With Wrapping, Gengar is essentially the 3rd best Pokemon, being the only real counter.

Voting for them banned.

[subsmoke]

Only when it's used with agility because you can send a Dragonite out, agility and then the other player has to hope you miss with wrap or you can just go through their whole team. No way to counter it no matter how good you are unless you have Gengar.

Without agility wrap is fine though because most wrappers aren't that fast so they need paralysis for it to work. So I voted no.

[GGFan]

If Wrap should be allowed then so should OHKOs. If OHKOs aren't allowed then neither should Wrap.

They both essentially integrate the same strategy: stop your opponent from attacking -- permanently. However, Wrap is far more pertinent thanks to being able to manipulate switches and switch out without the incoming Pokemon needing to worry about taking damage.

[posthuman]

I don't have a ton of experience with it, but I don't like wrapping. I agree with t3h Icy that it's a boring tactic, especially if both players use it. Voted yes.

[Zilch]

Unless it's explicitly agreed beforehand, Wrap should be banned. It can completely ruin the game.

[Crystal_]

Maybe... Wrap changes the metagame a lot, and can sometimes decide the winner, who will be the person with more luck. In the opinion of most people Wrap is cheap, but however, if you think abaut Wrap is not that dominant, without luck or with bad luck (what do u prefer?) it will miss often, you will need some support to pull Wrap off, and Wrappers aren't very good. Dragonite has not got much time to set up, paralisis will criple it (even with agility), and Blizzard 2HKOes it. It maybe just makes the metagame less atractive.

In GSC there is the same problem with perishSleepTraping, some people play with it, others hate it. I think Smogon or someone should arrange it.

The main diference I see between OHKO moves and Wrapping is that the former is a clause for every generation, so it is more standard. This is one of the main reason maybe Wrap should be allowed. For example if Chansey started to be hate (only in RBY) and people want it to be banned, what should we have to do? In my opinion the standard RBY metagame is RBY with Wrappers, although wrap makes RBY less interesting and maybe lowers its characteristical ming-game and prediction potential in favour of (more) luck.

[Nerd]

Mar 22, 2010 13:37:37 GMT -8 Crystal_ said:

For example if Chansey started to be hate (only in RBY) and people want it to be banned, what should we have to do?

If Chansey was overpowered in RBY, it would be moved to ubers in RBY. Wrap is allowed in other generations because it does not work the same way it does in RBY. IMO wrap should be banned because it is too luck - based. It isn't too difficult to set Dragonite up to sweep, and from there it's all up to chance. It's not just Dragonite - wrapping moves in general determine games by luck and take the excitement out of RBY.

[YellowRBY]

wrap changes the metagame and that makes it worth keeping :/

setting it up is like setting up a tauros sweep but with less accuracy making it weaker than a lot of strats so it shouldn't really matter

[WaterWizard]

Wrap should be banned. It takes all the fun out of RBY and relies 100% on hax, all while drawing out the game to unprecedented lengths (at least for first gen). I will never use a wrapper, and I usually abandon games against wrappers.

[posthuman]

tri-hax?

wrap isn't horrible when it's not Dragonite, but it's stupid as hell.

[garrinred]

I'm against wrap, just because it seems to significantly reduce fun. ^_^ Though I'm pretty new to RBY, so I don't have much experience in this metagame yet.

[t3h Icy]

Ask someone to play Dragonite against you and see what your thoughts are after.

[garrinred]

I don't understand. Dragonite without wrap seems to be a BL sweeper easily killed by ice moves. What do you mean?

[t3h Icy]

Dragonite is definitely BL without Wrap, but with it and Agility is nearly impossible to stop, unless the opponent gets unlucky.

[garrinred]

Which is a good reason to be AGAINST wrap, no? Against wrap means supporting a ban on wrap.

To clarify: I think wrap is no fun and should be banned because of this.

[t3h Icy]

Sorry I wasn't clear enough.

I meant face a Wrapping Dragonite to see what your opinion is after since you're new and haven't completely experienced what it's like.

[garrinred]

Ohhhh. That makes sense. So I could see firsthand how terrible it is, got it.

[spies]

Voted no.

Wrapping moves are not a big deal. One could make a team of 6 wrappers and still win/lose as much as any other player of his skill level.

The big arguments I see here:

- It makes the game boring - Not really a valid argument since it is not objective at all. Moreover, someone might use Wrap for more interesting purposes than just killing things 6% damage at a time, for example, a wrapping Victreebel choosing what it wants to sleep by having the opponent switch around in hopes of having Wrap miss.

- It's luck based - Tons of things are luck based in RBY. Hypnosis, for example, has a 60% chance of putting the opponent to sleep and most times you have nothing to do but choose what gets to sleep. In a lot of battles, that Pokemon never gets to wake up.

- Agility Dragonite - Like Yellow said, setting up an Agility Dragonite sweep is like setting up a Tauros sweep. Or a Dodrio, Sandslash, Kingler, whatever sweep. Paralysis still cripples Dragonite, forcing it to take a turn to Agility and there's always the risk of a FP. Five of the most used Pokemon carry an Ice move, six have a paralyzing move (the rest have Body Slam), and four others have Explosion/Selfdestruct.

There are some pros to Wrap too:

- A Wrap team is viable yet takes strategy to work - This way, it expands the metagame a little.

- Wrapping moves boost some Pokemon to make them usable - Don't tell me you just fold when you see "Tangela used Bind!". However, Bind makes Tangela that bit more useful. More examples: Cloyster, Victreebel, Onix, Ninetales, Rapidash (these last three in UU).

Overall I think Wrap is an interesting, non broken option for teambuilding and should not be banned.

[WaterWizard]

A. Very few (if any) people enjoy watching there pokemon sustain small amounts of damage turn after turn without being able to retaliate whatsoever. This is exactly what wrap does.

B. Setting up agility Dragonite is NOT like setting up a Tauros sweep at all. An agile Dragonite can sweep an entire team after one move. Tauros needs way more setup, and uses a very different approach.


Agility Dragonite is and absolutely must remain banned. I think the others should be, too, and so far the majority of the votes seem to support this opinion. Perhaps more discussion is needed.

[subsmoke]

Apr 2, 2010 23:37:19 GMT -8 spies said:

- Agility Dragonite - Like Yellow said, setting up an Agility Dragonite sweep is like setting up a Tauros sweep. Or a Dodrio, Sandslash, Kingler, whatever sweep. Paralysis still cripples Dragonite, forcing it to take a turn to Agility and there's always the risk of a FP. Five of the most used Pokemon carry an Ice move, six have a paralyzing move (the rest have Body Slam), and four others have Explosion/Selfdestruct.

I agree with ya on everything but that. You don't really need to set up agiliwrap Dragonite. You can just send it out on turn 1, agility and then wrap everything on the opponent's team and they can never attack unless you get unlucky and miss.

[GGFan]

Apr 2, 2010 23:37:19 GMT -8 spies said:

- Agility Dragonite - Like Yellow said, setting up an Agility Dragonite sweep is like setting up a Tauros sweep. Or a Dodrio, Sandslash, Kingler, whatever sweep. Paralysis still cripples Dragonite, forcing it to take a turn to Agility and there's always the risk of a FP. Five of the most used Pokemon carry an Ice move, six have a paralyzing move (the rest have Body Slam), and four others have Explosion/Selfdestruct.

Tauros doesn't have any moves that prevent it from taking damage, and it can't switch out freely. It's not really the same at all.

Anyways, I prefer to take a disinterested viewpoint in this matter. I don't really agree with Smogon's esoteric, antediluvian perspectives on RBY as a whole, nor do I fully buy into the ideology of banning it simply because it's luck-based. However, I am concerned with the mechanics of the move; for Wrap essentially requires the user to miss, can manipulate switches, and ultimately feels as if it sends the metagame into a state of regression. As I said before, I don't really understand the logic of the approbation one move and the reprobation another when they are both almost the same in terms of their quintessential goal.

Nonetheless, Wrap is arguably more advantageous than OHKOs due to its unique attribute of being able to manipulate switches. I believe it should stay banned if no considerations are being given to the allowance of OHKOs.

[Crystal_]

Well, OK lets bann it, I agree. But if it is banned a tier for each Wrapping Pokemon is not necessary

[Underboss]

Well, if you gonna ban wrap because its too strong I say ban Tauros too. Nothing is a real counter against him and if you could, everyone would just use 6 Tauros's on a team. I hate how I always have to use Tauros. Cause if I don't use him, I'm at an obvious disadvantage. As for Wrapping Dragonite, I would consider allowing Wrapping as a separate category, like Uber. I would also like to see OU matches where Wrap moves and Tauros (and possibly Chansey) are both banned. I voted NO to banning Wrap moves, and will continue to do so until there is a category where Tauros is banned too.

[Crystal_]

Yeah, this is the problem I found to bann Wrap. We are few people playing RBY, and what we don't want is to play each with their own rules. And another category is too much for RBY I think

[t3h Icy]

May 7, 2010 6:24:22 GMT -8 Underboss said:

Well, if you gonna ban wrap because its too strong I say ban Tauros too. Nothing is a real counter against him and if you could, everyone would just use 6 Tauros's on a team. I hate how I always have to use Tauros. Cause if I don't use him, I'm at an obvious disadvantage. As for Wrapping Dragonite, I would consider allowing Wrapping as a separate category, like Uber. I would also like to see OU matches where Wrap moves and Tauros (and possibly Chansey) are both banned. I voted NO to banning Wrap moves, and will continue to do so until there is a category where Tauros is banned too.

Cloyster, Articuno and often Kingler can counter Tauros. More common alternatives include Alakazam, Snorlax and Jynx if you hit with Counter.

I counter Tauros a lot with Alakazam. Thunder Wave->Psychic x2. Sometimes Reflect if I need it. The only way Tauros can take you out is if it gets a Critical with Body Slam, and that's not guaranteed either.

Though Tauros is definitely a staple in RBY, only because he has a simple pairing of attributes that is very important; a Physical with high Attack and high Speed. The only comparable Pokemon is Dodrio, and some may say Dugtrio, that can also do that. Aerodactyl too, but he can't do anything.

[posthuman]

Play against a good Agi-Wrapping Dragonite. It is not like taking out a Tauros. You can actually attack a Tauros.

If Tauros was unbeatable, he would be in the Uber Tier. He is not.

[WaterWizard]

As has already been stated, with Wrap allowed, beating an Agile Dragonite is nearly impossible.

Dragonite w/ Agility and Wrap is and should always be banned.

What was proposed is to remove or sustain the ban on other wrappers/clampers. My vote is still to sustain.

Wrapping ruins the metagame.

[Underboss]

I think a Victreebel or Cloyster with Wrap/Clamp would be fair to use

[GGFan]

May 7, 2010 6:24:22 GMT -8 Underboss said:

Well, if you gonna ban wrap because its too strong I say ban Tauros too. Nothing is a real counter against him and if you could, everyone would just use 6 Tauros's on a team. I hate how I always have to use Tauros. Cause if I don't use him, I'm at an obvious disadvantage. As for Wrapping Dragonite, I would consider allowing Wrapping as a separate category, like Uber. I would also like to see OU matches where Wrap moves and Tauros (and possibly Chansey) are both banned. I voted NO to banning Wrap moves, and will continue to do so until there is a category where Tauros is banned too.

Beating Tauros doesn't come down to hoping for a miss.