Lead Discussion

[t3h Icy]

It's funny that just awhile ago, people thought Gengar was broken as a lead, but lately he seems almost extinct and everyone leads Alakazam.

The five main leads are Starmie, Alakazam, Gengar, Exeggutor and Jynx.

Starmie goes even with Alakazam, beats Gengar, and loses to Exeggutor and Jynx

Alakazam goes even with Starmie, beats Gengar, and loses to Exeggutor and Jynx.

Gengar loses to Starmie and Alakazam, and beats Exeggutor and Jynx.

Exeggutor beats Starmie and Alakazam, and loses to Gengar and Jynx.

Jynx beats Starmie, Alakazam and Exeggutor, and loses to Gengar.

(Note: these are all based on likelihood)

Funny that according to this, Jynx is the most viable choice in this tangle of Rock, Paper, Scissors, but is the worst Pokemon of the 5.

But the thing is, do you want Alakazam/Starmie as Sleep bait or Jynx/Exeggutor paralyzed, or Gengar risking KO.

So what do you think is the way to go with a lead? Should you lead with a sleeper and put a Psychic staller to sleep? Should you lead with a staller to take sleep and paralyze the opponent? Should you use Gengar of the three Sleepers, as the fastest one, despite being the worst against Alakazam/Starmie?

I'm not sure what's best, but I'm really happy that the lead metagame is more developed than Gengar Sleep War dittos now. =)

[Zilch]

Gengar's an odd one. Yes, he's the fastest sleeper around, but he has to rely on the 60 accuracy Hypnosis, while Eggy and Jynx have their 75 accuracy sleepers. Speed is everything, folks. In a meantime, he's the only one I'd recommend as a true suicide lead since Eggy is just too valuable to explode from the get-go. Gengar really makes things a massive guessing game - barring the dreaded Gengar ditto, of course.

Prediction skills, go! Explode on that Rhydon! Or will you take out Jynx or Alakazam? Switch to Chansey against Starmie and risk getting frozen with a freak Blizzard? Does that Starmie even have Psychic? Are you going to go all-out against Eggy since that Sleep Powder is just too nasty to be ignored? Or will Hypnosis triumph over all?

Ugh.

[t3h Icy]

Well I was leading my Starmie with Ice Beam, Psychic, Light Screen, Recover, and it would either take out Gengar most of the time, or sometimes freeze Chansey. But now that people are using Alakazam, I can't fight back with Starmie. Sure I can go with Ice Beam, but fighting Seismic Toss while paralyzed is a losing battle. Switching from that point means I've done nothing and have had two Pokemon paralyzed too.

I tried Jynx, but Jynx loses a lot of use after putting something to sleep. Fun with Counter and Blizzard, but otherwise, meh.

Gengar I used to use, but I wouldn't dare risking it with Alakazam and Starmie roaming about. Maybe if Explosion was guaranteed to OHKO Alakazam, but that's also getting passed Psychic.

Alakazam I can't lead because he's a staple with my playstyle and he's horrible for me when he's sleeping. I have a terrible record when leading with Alakazam.

I'm trying Exeggutor right now, and so far success. In the odd appearance of Gengar, it's still a 30% chance to put the opponent to Sleep, or I could attack with Psychic.

Sing Chansey might also be interesting...

[WaterWizard]

A CH Jynx Psychic can screw up Gengar, and it's not exactly rare (certainly more common than Eggy's CH). On paper, Jynx seems to be the best lead, at least for the first couple moves.

Starmie seems to CH my Eggy lead a lot, and if Sleep Powder misses the first time, I'm a little worried about Blizzard getting a 2hko. Of course, singing Chansey remedies this.

I've been enjoying leading Eggy and saving Gengar for late in the game. He totally walls Persian (who seems to be being used more often now) and can be a surprise switch in late-game when the foe's killed your Golem and wants to blow up on your Chansey/Alakazam. Late game Gengar's also good at finishing off Starmie/Lapras or the Slowbro who thinks it's time to come out and sweep. Not to mention Gengar can sleep someone else later in the game after the original sleeping enemy pokemon has switched in on an explosion.

I've never liked Alakazam. If I wanted an "anti-lead," I'd go with Starmie's, but (call me conservative) I prefer leading with a sleeper in OU.

Verily, I am glad that Gengar is currently fading away as a lead.

[Underboss]

Jynx, besides being a sleeper, is like a glass cannon. Very powerful, but it breaks easily. You have to be gentle with Jynx and she can come through for you. The other four leads are alot less fragile. Gar can afford to take sleep and some non-psychic spec hits. Eggy is a solid tank. And zam and starmie recover. So if something bad happens in the beginning, its less likely to be bad. But a paralyzed jynx on the first turn, forget it. Maybe jynx can be useful as explosion bait for gar. But yeah i usually switch out my Jynx first turn unless it's eggy. But even then, it's risky. It's all about those mind games.

All war is deception. Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate. Sun Tzu, Art of War

[Crystal_]

Just remember that Starmie can be paralyzed, but Alakazam and Jinx shouldn't, especially the former. How are you going to sleep something with a paraZam coming into Gar or Eggy?? However Starmie takes a Tbolt from Gengar and a MegaDrain from Exeggutor. This is the worst thing abaut the LS Starmie.
And I would only lead with a sleeper if I have another in case my sleeper goes to sleep before.

[posthuman]

I like leading with a sleeper. Alakazam is a poor lead in my opinion, and while Starmie is okay, I don't enjoy using it. I still use Gengar. He's the fastest sleeper and he functions very well when asleep. Exeggutor is an extraordinary backup sleeper (switches into Psychics easily, SP usually works), and works well with Gengar.

With the new abundance of Alakazam leads, I'm considering using Eggy/Jynx as a lead instead with Gengar/Eggy as a backup. It is easy to switch into Zam though...which is why I think he's a bad lead...

Chansey is a possible backup, but it's tough to give up a moveslot on Chansey. Remove TBolt and only have Ice Beam, risking running out of attack PP? Remove TWave and no longer threaten Tauros with it? It's a tough decision.

[Underboss]

Hmmm, I've been using Ala-Tau-Chan-Eggy-Per-Gol alot and I've had some good results with Zam lead. But maybe an Eggy lead would be good, I don't know. But the point is sometimes you just build your team and you go with the poke that would make the best lead out of the 6. And sometimes that doesn't include Gengar or Jynx as in my team. I need Zam to spread para for my Persian, and Golem is the normal resistor and Zapdos counter, again to help Persian. Also, I've liked Zam as a good paralyzation and sleep bait. If I think the enemy will sleep, I switch to Golem or sometimes keep zam to sleep. This is because Golem does his job as normal resistor even when asleep and Zam asleep can wake up later unparalyzed and recover the damage. And bam! You have a fresh Zam. If I think the enemy will try to para Zam, sometimes I let them para. It depends on which poke it is. But sometimes I switch to Chansey to get para on Chansey. Zam lead is great bait and disagree that getting slept is "losing." I want to have Zam or Golem asleep so I don't have to worry about sleep later from Gengar and Eggy. The other nice thing about Zam lead is that you get to go first to set up Reflect or Psychic or Thunderwave. Zam can beat Chansey when she's paralyzed with Spec Falls. I don't know, I guess I just like Zam alot now haha. But yeah do you guys think Eggy would be a better lead for my team, or should I stick with Zam?

[Underboss]

Also I was thinking, could Eggy beat Starmie if they are both leads and Eggy has Mega Drain and Starmie doesn't have Light Screen? You know, basically I'm asking what should the set of Eggy be if he's gonna be a lead? Because I usually give him d-e, psy, sleep, boom and basically I replaced the "old standard" Eggy's Mega Drain with Double-Edge. Maybe dual powder Eggy Lead is better?

[t3h Icy]

Blizzard outdamages Mega Drain, but Mega Drain does heal. It's a really even match and a number of things can affect it such as CH from either side, a Freeze or Blizzard missing. Starmie is usually more likely to have a paralyzing move, and in the case they both have Thunder Wave/Stun Spore, Thunder Wave doesn't miss and Starmie paralyzes first (so Exeggutor might be fully paralyzed before doing anything).

It's in Starmie's favor, but Explosion is also a factor.

[Underboss]

So why do you say that Starmie loses to Eggy then? It seems Starmie mauls Eggy before Eggy can strike back with Sleep Powder or Mega Drain

[t3h Icy]

I mean in terms of Sleep. Of course though if you want Starmie asleep while you either hit Exeggutor with Blizzard or Thunder Wave, you can make it work for you.

[Underboss]

Right, I think that's the main appeal of Starmie and Alakazam. You get to go first and first the enemy's lead before they sleep you. Or you can make sure ur sleep sponge get's slept. And then Eggy can't sleep ur Chansey and you got the mind game going of when to switch to Golem/Gengar for the explosion. It's even better when Chansey has Reflect.

[subsmoke]

I don't like exeggutor leads because you pretty much have to hope your opponent's gengar misses hypnosis and then you gotta hope sleep powder hits.

To me the best leads are alakazam, gengar and starmie. It's gotta be the fastest sleeper or something that can go first and beat the fastest sleeper.

[Crystal_]

Alakazam and Starmie are good leads using with prediction. You can ST or Blizzard a Eggy switch (from Gengar), and Psychic the Gengar.
If they switch to Chansey it shouldn't be a problem. Come with Gengar into Ice Beam/T-bolt, with Eggy into T-bolt, and if you think they will T Wave (predicting Gengar or thinking that Zam/Star will stay in) go with Chansey.

[t3h Icy]

I think the whole switching Chansey into Thunder Wave doesn't work too well anymore. A lot of people get around it with Alakazam, Snorlax or Tauros, or some combination of them.

[WaterWizard]

Eggy lead hopes for an Alakazam anti-lead. And the result is a sleeping Alakazam (and a paralyzed or 283 Eggy).

Gengar lead hopes for an Eggy or Jynx, and has the best possible results (a sleep with no repercussions). Jynx vs lead Eggy (very rare) also results in a sleep with no repercussions.

The anti-leads just end up paralyzing Chansey (Starmie) or Eggy (Zam).

[Underboss]

Hmm, it looks like the community is very divided on what the best lead is and what it should accomplish. Looks like there will be a variety of leads in the metagame from now on.

[t3h Icy]

Makes it more fun though.

[Dexter]

I'm one of those people who doesn't care about sleeping the very first turn of the match. Yes, sleeping something early on can be great, but sleeping too early and you just end up putting their sleep bait to sleep instead of having the constant threat of putting the most dangerous thing on their team to sleep. (sometimes it's good to save your sleep for the endgame, but I digress)

I think a great lead should instead focus on gaining momentum as quick as possible. This is why I lead alakazam or starmie most of the time. They are fast and can help control the game in my favor. For example - leading a starmie/alakazam against a lead gengar. Most people will switch to their chansey to absorb the psychic/thunder wave. This in turn gives me a free switch to my own gengar. Now I'm free to either hypnosis or even psychic if I want to nail an incoming gengar! Of course there's also the duggy -> Lapras combo which also nets early momentum. And a bunch of others I don't really feel like going into.

Sometimes I do lead with gengar, but not because I think he's the best lead, or even because he's the fastest sleeper. I do it most of the time just because everyone leads with sleep nowadays, and he's such great sleep bait since he can still do his main job of taking explosions even while napping. Plus if I don't have much space on a team it's very easy to just slap him on without having to worry too much in terms of partner pokemon. The quick sleep is just icing, really, and depending on my opponent and what I'm up against, I don't even go for the hypnosis sometimes.

[WaterWizard]

Eggy and Jynx have the option of 2HKOing Gengar or sleeping it. I like using Eggy, as he can burn at least 1 sleep turn while Genger Tbolts him and switches. Furthermore, Eggy can come in later on Alakazam and wake up. Jynx is ehh...

[Crystal_]

Gengar is becoming pretty rare now.

[t3h Icy]

Until Jynx gets popular again, and Gengar fluctuates again. It's like supply and demand on a teeter totter.

[Crystal_]

Yeah, like Zapdos / Jolteon with Golem / Rhydon

[Underboss]

Price high, quantity demanded low. A lot of Golem = high price of Zapdos.

Econ 201. ^_^