Reexamining BL Potential

[WaterWizard]

I think some of the BLs have some untapped potential. Gyarados, non-wraping Dragonite, and Cloyster all seem like they have plenty of power in OU. Hypno has proven himself very useful (I believe it's Spies or Gotei who uses him fairly often).

The key is figuring out how to manipulate the battle so that these BLs can come out and shine. Gyarados is a great example of a BL who needs the right setup. He needs basically anyone with an electric move to be KO'd or pre-dead. But how can that situation be procured every time?

Also, I've been using Dugtrio lately with a lot of success. It's so nice to KO Chansey and Alakazam unexpectedly when the opponent scorns my BL. That's one of his best attributes: the fact that he doesn't always beat them keeps them out to try their hand. The result is often an enemy who's sorely lacking his special wall.

Sure, we seem to know what most of the OUs can do, but we've not come to the point where we can confidently control the entire battle. When we develop more control, I think the BLs will become more useful.

Just putting my thoughts into text. Any comments?

[Supreme Dirt]

Jul 12, 2010 23:45:28 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

I think some of the BLs have some untapped potential. Gyarados, non-wraping Dragonite, and Cloyster all seem like they have plenty of power in OU. Hypno has proven himself very useful (I believe it's Spies or Gotei who uses him fairly often).
Gyara is definitely useful. Just make sure you don't leave him in on a T-bolt. Him getting T-bolt is pretty good reason to use him, being the only Water other than Starmie to get Electric+Water iirc

The key is figuring out how to manipulate the battle so that these BLs can come out and shine. Gyarados is a great example of a BL who needs the right setup. He needs basically anyone with an electric move to be KO'd or pre-dead. But how can that situation be procured every time?

Also, I've been using Dugtrio lately with a lot of success. It's so nice to KO Chansey and Alakazam unexpectedly when the opponent scorns my BL. That's one of his best attributes: the fact that he doesn't always beat them keeps them out to try their hand. The result is often an enemy who's sorely lacking his special wall.
Dugtrio is pimp. Very good to use him.

Sure, we seem to know what most of the OUs can do, but we've not come to the point where we can confidently control the entire battle. When we develop more control, I think the BLs will become more useful.

Just putting my thoughts into text. Any comments?

Yep. In bold.

[pocket]

Yea, Gyarados is beast with its 125 Atk and 100 SAtk. I've been beaten by Gyarados a couple of times :x. Without its subpar Speed and horrible weakness to Electric it is definitely much more threatening than an all-out attacking Starmie or Lapras.

It's nice to see that you're using Dugtrio, too, but I think that's more inconsistent that relies more on its high CH rate (I mean its Atk is in the 250s). I know of people using something funky like Mimic and Sand Attack to get Sleep Powder and shit like that! I don't think it's worth a slot, though...

I also see people using stuff like Raichu and Nidoking and I believe its in the same boat as Dugtrio. They lack firepower. Diverse movepools doesn't alleviate this.

Cloyster is interesting. Solid Defense against Ground and Normal Types, but a Rock weak, no recovery, and can't spread paralysis in any form. People use it regardless for spreading damage with Clamp (30 base & STAB could add up quickly) and then dispatching stuff with STAB Blizzard or Hyper Beam. Some opt for Rest > Hyper Beam to cure status / prolong its duration. Explosion is also a unique role that no other water types could take up.

Hypno is also the same boat as Cloyster imo. Doesn't do quite a good job as the standard mons assuming similar roles (in this case monsters like Alakazam, Eggy, and Chansey). No quick recovery or boom stinks. Doesn't have the monster offense as Zam (Hypno still has an impressive Special, but its low speed means not much hax for him). It is arguably a better user of Counter / Reflect than Zam, though, and I think a Hypno user should capitalize on that. Double status also another pro.

There were couple of people back in the day that used Tangela. It has a deceptively high 100 Special and an excellent 115 Defense, making it a freaken wall that can take even a Blizzard to paralyze something and then Bind stuff for accumulating damage / free switch. I've seen people putting Rest > Sleep Powder just to make sure Tangela recovers its Bind advantage when it gets paralyzed. Very annoying to deal with. A midway between Exeggutor and Victreebel. Unlike Eggy (and like Vic), it has an easier time dealing with Chansey that comes in to take status, and unlike Victreebel (and like Eggy) it has good defense.

I know people made quite a commotion about Clefable being viable in OU. It's not as fast as Tauros or physically powerful as Snorlax, but it has high Special to threaten defensive monsters like Starmie, Slowbro, and Eggy. It can also always resort to STAB moves to dispatch special walls like Chansey and Alakazam. It can also pack a T-Wave and Sing to double-status, something that Snorlax, Tauros, or Persian cannot do.

I personally feel Clefable is jack of all trades, master of none. It can do a lot of things, but 4-move syndrome restricts its potential. You can have Sing and T-Wave, but then you are stuck with no Thunder / Tbolt, for instance. It may have a potential of being a wall-breaker, but still it would have a hard time breaking Exeggutor and Snorlax. I haven't used it myself, so I may be misinformed.

I feel Dodrio is the more viable Normal Type. Sure it gets walled by Golem / Rhydon, but it has the Atk of a Snorlax with 100 Spd and Drill Peck, a great STAB to weaken the threat of Eggy and Gengar. It also has Agility to outrun Starmie and Alakazam (Tauros is jealous). Once Golem / Rhydon is eliminated, this thing can potentially go berserk.

Venusaur and Victreebel's Razor Leaf is lethal. Best answer to Tobybro. I have used Venusaur with Swords Dance, Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Razor Leaf before using Victreebel and its solid defense allows it to Dance up twice frequently. Exeggutor and Gengar are hard counter for this, but they are Exploders and relatievely easy to wall otherwise. Gengar usually puts Eggy to sleep anyways or blow up on it. Body Slam provides paralysis and thus more opportunities for it to sweep later in the game with Hyper Beam or Razor Leaf.

Another Poison Type that can do well in this Psychic-dominated metagame is Tentacruel. Healthy 100 Spd, exceptional 120 Special, good movepool. With paralysis support, this thing may be better at sweeping than Starmie. The main advantage over Starmie is that it's not helpless against Chansey. Swords Dance on the switch and then Wrap can wear down Chansey quickly. It's easily walled by Starmie, unlike Gyarados and Lapras, without a boosted Hyper Beam, but I do not think the recharge move is worth it with such a great Special and mediocre Atk. Hydro Pump (or Surf) and Blizzard can clean up the rest. Someone ought to try this. Omastar is somewhat overshadowed by Tentacruel in almost every way other than its normal resist, no Psychic weak, and a perfect counter to Agility+Wrap Dragonite (w/ Hyper Beam). It has some utility, switching into Hyper Beams of Snorlax and Tauros to then retaliate with a Hydro Pump backed by 328 Special. A definite 3HKO and 2HKO, respectively. A combination of Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Reflect, and Rest can fill the remaining 2 slots.

Swords Dancers in general are viable. The most notable one is Sandslash for not resorting to Hyper Beam to sweep and for not being stopped cold by Gengar. I cannot believe Sandslash is not OU actually. Kabutops and Kingler are also vicious sweepers. Kingler has more firepower with Crabhammer and 130 base Atk, but Kabutops has better defensive capability, notably the normal resist and Ice resist that makes it impermeable to Agility Dragonite. Its hard to argue which of the two Water monster is superior. Sandslash is the best, though, in terms of Swords Dance sweeping.

And Machamp. Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Earthquake / Counter, and Submission. Not so crazy to use a fighting type in a generation with many normal types. Para Slam and Hyper Beam can easily wear down even the bulkiest Psychic, Exeggutor. With its good defense, it can absorb a Hyper Beam and Counter it, but EQ is good to scout for Counter against Chansey, to hit Gengar on the switch, and to hit Golem / Rhydon rather than resorting to the rather inaccurate Submission. Submission is a must, though. Hitmonlee doesn't come close to Machamp imo, despite having more Speed and better STAB, due to its lackluster defense (50 HP / 53 Def / 35 Special as opposed to 90 / 80 / 65)

[GGFan]

Without Wrap, Dragonite really isn't that efficient in OU. The lack of STAB hurts it tremendously on the physical side of things, meaning he can't compete against Pokemon such as Persian. While he has a bit of merit thanks to his special movepool, consider the fact that Persian doesn't really need Thunderbolt at all and already 2HKOs Golem/Rhydon with Bubblebeam. Dragonite's saving graces are its defensive stats and ability to switch into Earthquake, but he's ultimately a novelty choice in OU.

Cloyster is a little more usable because of better defenses and no ice weakness, but he's still lacking without Clamp. However, Cloyster -- unlike Dragonite -- matches up well against a significant amount of Pokemon in OU. But like Dragonite, though, he simply pales in comparison to a better choice, Lapras: it's better defensively (especially on the physical side if you use Reflect), and has a better movepool. Without Clamp, Cloyster's niche is Explosion -- a good niche -- but it's not enough to propel him into any sort of notable status.

If we're going to speak of BLs who have potential in OU, why not mention Nidoking? He's a better sweeper than Dragonite and is immune to Thunderwave.

[WaterWizard]

Dragonite and Gyarados can both come in as revenge killers and provide nice physical pressure. Chansey (especially paralyzed) doesn't exactly love coming in on 348 and 366 Body Slam, even without STAB. Really, no one likes switching in on them except Gengar and perhaps Lapras.

Cloyster has lots of potential. Ice type is just great in general, and her defense index is insane.

Nidoking... hmm I've never really worked much with him. I'll have to try him out! I think it could work well. I need to see how much he takes from various attacks...

Machamp sucks. Even Abra and Gastly give him a run for his money.

[pocket]

Machamp's Special is not impressive compared to his Special Defense in future gens, but he is respectfully bulky. If Gyarados's Body Slam / Hyper Beam hurts, Machamp's Body Slam / Hyper Beam hurts slightly more with 358 Atk. A Gengar without Psychic gets boned by EQ. Alakazam get's 2HKOed by Body Slam / EQ and Hyper Beam. Starmie and Exeggutor is a 3HKO and 4HKO with a similar fashion. Slowbro is the one monster that totally walls it.

Machamp's Submission is great to finish off Normal Pokemon and Golem not quite in Hyper Beam or Earthquake range, respectively. Machamp is hard to fit into a team certainly, and in many respects it is a poor-man's Snorlax, but it is hardly a "suck" Pokemon.

Nidoking, Gyarados, and Dragonite are much better wall-breakers than Machamp, though, I'd give you that. Machamp can obviously deal with Chansey much better, and unlike Snorlax, Golems wont switch in as readily.

Cloyster is pretty useless without Clamp imo. Sure it has great defense, but so does Slowbro with much better defensive typing. The only thing Cloyster has over Slowbro without Clamp is being faster than Golem and the ability to Explode, and I guess that is good enough to be used... It has to compete with Lapras, too, which is much more versatile. That's the thing about banning Wrap moves; it hampers the potential of BL Pokemon that could otherwise be much more competent.

[t3h Icy]

Cloyster has a STAB 120 base power, 90% accuracy move which is key in countering Tauros.

[WaterWizard]

Submission is too unreliable (and recoil from Chansey/Snorlax is epic). Eggy comes in on EQ/Submission and Machamp has to run, giving Eggy a free turn to Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Mega Drain, or just spam a 348 stabbed Psychic. Birds switch in. Psychic on 1/3 or 1/2 of the Pokemon in a OU team. Machamp basically allows the foe to do free Gengar/Eggy/Flying chain switches.

Let's not forget counter. If Machamp didn't have EQ, he'd be even more garbage. But hey, prove me wrong. Start using Machamp in OU and test him out!

As with a lot of the UU/BL monsters, Cloyster is good "if you can just spread paralysis first." Seems like a cop-out thing to say, but it's pretty true. Cloyster/Articuno/Kingler/Fossils can all hold their own against Tauros, if anyone can. There really is no true physical wall in RBY though.

The developers made Psychic types too good. Really a fail job...

[Crystal_]

Cloyster is useful. Just because it can beat physicals and explode in recoverers. And beats Eggy and grounds too. IB + Explosion is a OHKO in Chansey and Star. And if star recovers in every blizzard to avoid that it may end up being frozen.
Jolteon is also good but i think its OU here.
Kadabra's problem is that Tauros (and gengar) are faster.
Khan is nice if u want 2 Tauros.
I dont like neither Gyara and drago (with PT moves banned).
Machamp sucks in the current meta. Hitmonlee is better but still sucks.
Stuff like Sandslash, Persian or Dugtrio become dangerous when the conditions are appropriate for them.

[Nitro]

eh...Machamp is not very good. You can't really switch him in on anything except I guess maybe chansey or maybe a rare rock slide, and while offensively he's a great anti-physical something that can actually switch into them is much more ideal (like cloyster, slowbro). So he ends up being kind of a mediocre sweeper, and there are just simply much better options all over the place for that. If he manages to get active cleanly in the mid-late game, he can actually be really tough to deal with. The nice thing is that he absolutely does not allow physicals in, and the stuff that he does let in are often pretty easy to switch into themselves. So he's pretty nice in that respect, but a major annoyance is submission's recoil, which is going to really limit just how much damage he can do. Chansey + Snorlax, ideal targets for Machamp, have enough HP to kill you on recoil alone, so good luck actually sweeping anything. He's probably good enough offensively to force some tricky switches in the late game and beat something 1v1, though.

I can't really see Hitmonlee being better, just because the extra speed doesn't really make it faster than anything important in OU (other than I guess not having to worry about speed tie with chansey/egg), and Hitmonlee absolutely can't take a hit from anything. HJK is nice compared to Machamp's submission, but Hitmonlee can't learn EQ or even Hyper Beam to round out his moveset.

[WaterWizard]

Crystal, Dugtrio ties Alakazam in speed. They both 2hko each other. Dugtrio cuts through Zam's Reflect, too, which is nice. Dugtrio can be VERY useful if you switch him in at the right time. Just be sure to have an Eggy counter. Too bad Zapdos can 2hko Dugtrio with Drill Peck :/

[Crystal_]

Yep you are right. Sry. I though Zam had 125 Spe.
Mmmhm. It is not that bad. It is really dangerous if you managed to force a switch, and there's no egg. An EQ CH in the switch means that Star, Chan or Zam are out before they move.

The difficult thing is to force a switch, and even if you managed to do that you are not likely to do enough if you dont score a CH on the switch-in, especially if Eggy is there.

But, who is an Eggy counter? The recoverers or are you thinking in something like Lapras, Zapdos... Two "no-standars" is too much for a team for me.


Machamp ties with Egg but is still faster than Chan. Machamp can't really do much (anything without an EQ CH on the switch-in) to Star or even Zam. So the important things for him would be normals, where you have the recoil; but anyway they switch, and you use Submission against Egg, Zam, Star...

With Hitmonlee there is no recoil against normals as well as an slightly more accurate move (the power is nearly the same using the atk stat), and there is Meditate or a more possible CH, to become a bit less worthless against a psychic switch-in.
Hitmonlee can take a hit, true. But I don't see much difference between both. Machamp is going to take a Psychic (obv) from Star, Zam or Egg, which with a Sub recoil will likely be a KO. Machamp takes hits better from Tauros and Lax. True. But with the Sub recoil there is no difference.

[Nerd]

There are a lot of pokemon that have situational use in OU, but unless you know your opponent's team you are going to handicap yourself most of the time. If you DO know your oppenent's team, though, take a look at all the pokemon when building a team; there may be a perfect counter that they haven't thought of.

Of course, if you like using non-OUs, go ahead. For best results, use unorthodox strategies and read your opponent's mind.

[Crystal_]

Hypno is the better slp absorber lead (but perharps Jynx sometimes) I can think of (for teams that need the 3 recoverers [stall teams]); need = NEED, which means they have to be awake